Trent W Posted January 28 Posted January 28 1 hour ago, elevate said: Not that surprising. Not to be crude, but I'm pretty sure this boils down to sex and dating. Girls are more empowered + smarter than ever and are saying NO to toxic men. In response, men are claiming they're being victimised and unfairly labelled as toxic, rather than reflecting on their behaviour and the WHY of many women feel unsafe around them. Things will get better eventually because this generation of women will only procreate with the good guys. The rest will be left to die off. It's a shame the process can't be sped up, but it is what it is. The ones having the most kids are conservative men and religious people Men who are more awake know that in these times its selfish to have kids and either decide no to or reduce it to one at the most. So what you posted it’s completely untrue And also ignoring the crazy amount of toxic women in the dating pool is completely insane.
ATRL Moderator Bloo Posted January 28 ATRL Moderator Posted January 28 7 hours ago, Happylittlepunk said: People want to blame Elon musk, Andrew Tate etc. the meetionmovement was hijacked by men hating feminist and started hashtags like #believe all women. Then when some men including celebrity men like terry crews revealed they were sexually harassed/assaulted even victims of domestic abuse they got laughed at or ignored. Apparently #metoo is only for women. Men don’t have support groups like women in the real word regarding mental help or support groups in general. Progressives continue to ignore issues that men are facing today at education level, work opportunity, father hood, bullying issues, marriage etc. Meanwhile guys are still suppose to be men and just suck it up. Who cares about men etc. men have been crying for help for that past 4 or 5 years now. It’s like Melanie king, Scott Galloway, James sexton, and Richard reeves have all said. Nobody cares about men issues and only conservatives had actually said anything or began to talk about it. You guys wonder why? Most of these issues are a result of patriarchy and feminism is largest philosophy aimed at dismantling it. The Barbie movie, which explicitly targets patriarchy as a whole, make countless mentions of how men suffer under patriarchy as well. The only people I’ve seen call out the concerns of “women and children” dying in Gaza were feminists highlighting that discounting the lost male civilians lives is bad and should be avoided and men should be included by just referring to lost civilian lives. There are several ways in which men are harmed. But it’s actually feminists that talk about those issues. 5
MatiRod Posted January 28 Posted January 28 9 hours ago, AndThenTheCocaine said: I do think there's a strong reactionary undercurrent among young men in general, as in a "reaction" to the generally culturally liberal media landscape-- the pendulum inevitably swings back. It's kinda like the traditional anti-establishment slant of the youth, but now the "establishment" is seen as liberal values. Yep. I will get nervous holding my boyfriend’s hand around random groups of male teenagers these days. 2
Delirious Posted January 28 Posted January 28 Religion obviously also plays a large factor in all of this. They should do a poll on that too
bad guy Posted January 28 Posted January 28 When you have social media content targeting boys by feeding them incel rhetoric during their formative years and thus tainting their views of girls/women before or during puberty, this is the result. Social media already desensitizes fully grown adults to mistreatment of others so how can anyone expect children and teens to not be affected by this as well? Grown men who are inadequate losers have cultivated this narrative via online spaces that women are the problem for their own inadequacies and have given young boys who are impressionable and insecure (as most children are during puberty) a “reason” why that is. It’s always women but never any self-reflection or accountability. Also this male loneliness issue is nobody else’s fault but men but whatever. I mean there’s a comment on here talking about how these young boys who follow Andrew Tate have no strong male figures in their real lives…and who’s fault is that again? Honestly Gen X/Millennial parents have a blame in this as well for not providing proper guidance or boundaries to their kids online behavior. 12 hours ago, Trent W said: I date women and they are becoming unbearable in terms specific of dating I also date women and nothing’s ever been as bad as what I’ve heard about men. I’ve had my girl friends tell me about guys they had been seeing for months ghost them, or lose their feelings as soon as it got physical and start slowly showing less and less interest, or be talking to multiple girls at once, or have nothing to offer at all yet expect total devotion. The dating pool for women is hell. There is a crisis among men yes but who are the first ones to take joy in treating other men horribly? Not women. 4
Mordecai Posted January 28 Posted January 28 I was at my friend's party yesterday and this guy and girl were full on arguing in front of everybody about colonisation Young men seem to think the world is out to get them, so they turn to impressionable men online to validate their feelings, build their self esteem or whatever. When these men spout questionable views, things become problematic because so many guys online quite literally idolise these men and their views to the point where they take their word as the gospel, which is scary. The echo chambers that social media has created are to blame 3 1
BorderBoy Posted January 28 Posted January 28 (edited) Palestine waking up the entire world! Edited January 28 by BorderBoy 2
Wonderland Posted January 28 Posted January 28 The gap will continue to widen alongside the widening difference in educational attainment. I think that is one of the key drivers.
Happylittlepunk Posted January 28 Posted January 28 14 hours ago, Communion said: Surely you see the irony in the bold while suggesting biological sex *is* meaningful enough to group people and that men can be stereotyped as being inherently different from how women are? Let alone then arguing that these alleged differences are not just cultural or sociological but biological? You keep scolding "extremists on both sides" yet reiterating that there are innate differences to men and women to mandate men and women as different sides to begin with. I'm sympathetic and don't actually view you as acting maliciously, but the arguments being put forward just don't make sense. The graphs show the ideological divide between men and women in Western countries is *WORSENING* and at times did not exist, which would then not work with your suggestion that men and women are just inherently different biologically (and somehow politically?). It suggests it correlates with worsening economic equality. The measure of how conservative men are is trending rightward, yet there remain differences men's ideologies between cultures, which suggests again that there is no such thing as a "biological inclination to being conservative" in men. A majority of young men in Britain are not voting for conservatives to begin with! The first minute in the Richard Reeves interview you linked to starts with him admitting in his research that the vast majority of suffering amongst men is concentrated in working class men and, due to being a study in America, often amongst disenfranchised groups like men of color, immigrant man, queer men, etc. Again, I'm sympathetic over the shortcomings of a capitalist system and how neoliberalism will often be given the largest platform, but neoliberal corporate feminism shouting over a Marxist understanding of class doesn't itself then make the inverse true. You're still doing the same standpoint theory you claim is what makes feminism bad. Neoliberal girlboss feminism not having enough of an answer for why poor men are exploited by rich men doesn't then suddenly make those poor men justified in listening to those very same rich men who exploit them when they tell them they're lonely, haven't gone on a date in 5 years, and are stuck in a low-paying job because women are less intelligent beings who deserve degradation and sexual brutalization. "Both sides are bad" is just a nonsensical distraction when one can't even articulate what "sides" they believe are at work here. Suggesting this is a "men's rights" issue based on some belief that men have unique sex-based needs is in itself distracting from issues of class. There are biological differences between men and women literally there decades of research of that topic. Men and women do think differently not just at a psychological level but biologically as well. There literally no denying it.
GraceRandolph Posted January 28 Posted January 28 17 hours ago, Domination said: Are we surprised? The culture sucks right now and in this one regard Jordan Peterson is correct. The neo-liberal media landscape of the past 10-15 years or so has basically siloed men into alt-right spaces on the internet regardless of their background because any media that previously catered to men’s interests was deemed dangerous and regressive. The thing is “men’s interests” have become more and more narrow over the years. Almost everything is deemed feminine now. Before men could be interested in literature, philosophy, art, astrology, technology, history or anything really and it was considered masculine, but today a lot of these subjects are seen as somewhat feminine. Masculinity needs a major overhaul in society. 3 3
GraceRandolph Posted January 28 Posted January 28 I think there’s a big problem with the educational system. I’ve heard so many stories of largely female teachers pathologizing male student behavior from a young age. We are clearly not getting something right in terms of young men and boys as a society. 3 1
Trent W Posted January 28 Posted January 28 6 hours ago, bad guy said: When you have social media content targeting boys by feeding them incel rhetoric during their formative years and thus tainting their views of girls/women before or during puberty, this is the result. Social media already desensitizes fully grown adults to mistreatment of others so how can anyone expect children and teens to not be affected by this as well? Grown men who are inadequate losers have cultivated this narrative via online spaces that women are the problem for their own inadequacies and have given young boys who are impressionable and insecure (as most children are during puberty) a “reason” why that is. It’s always women but never any self-reflection or accountability. Also this male loneliness issue is nobody else’s fault but men but whatever. I mean there’s a comment on here talking about how these young boys who follow Andrew Tate have no strong male figures in their real lives…and who’s fault is that again? Honestly Gen X/Millennial parents have a blame in this as well for not providing proper guidance or boundaries to their kids online behavior. I also date women and nothing’s ever been as bad as what I’ve heard about men. I’ve had my girl friends tell me about guys they had been seeing for months ghost them, or lose their feelings as soon as it got physical and start slowly showing less and less interest, or be talking to multiple girls at once, or have nothing to offer at all yet expect total devotion. The dating pool for women is hell. There is a crisis among men yes but who are the first ones to take joy in treating other men horribly? Not women. yeah and I’ve also heard **** stories about women my main point is that is stupid generalize the entire gender as x Both genders have their fair share of toxic people That’s why I consider people who say men/women are trash extremely dumb
Weld_E Posted January 28 Posted January 28 19 hours ago, Happylittlepunk said: Apparently #metoo is only for women. Men don’t have support groups like women in the real word regarding mental help or support groups in general. And who set that system up? Who laughed at Terry? It was other MEN.
Domination Posted January 28 Posted January 28 2 hours ago, GraceRandolph said: The thing is “men’s interests” have become more and more narrow over the years. Almost everything is deemed feminine now. Before men could be interested in literature, philosophy, art, astrology, technology, history or anything really and it was considered masculine, but today a lot of these subjects are seen as somewhat feminine. Masculinity needs a major overhaul in society. I’m not sure they have. The average working class man has never had a place in art and philosophy. Maybe those who had the luxury of attending higher education.
Vermillion Posted January 28 Author Posted January 28 22 minutes ago, Domination said: I’m not sure they have. The average working class man has never had a place in art and philosophy. Maybe those who had the luxury of attending higher education. The blame for that isn’t entirely on the donor class though but cultural norms among blue-collar men to begin with on what they’re allowed to like, which isn’t entirely dictated by that donor class to begin with.
Happylittlepunk Posted January 28 Posted January 28 3 hours ago, Weld_E said: And who set that system up? Who laughed at Terry? It was other MEN. Terry cruise straight up posted disgusting comments coming from straight women and gay men twitter posts. Calling him to man up and he isn’t attractive anymore for etc. it wasn’t just straight men. He exposed how terrible people are and clear double standard regarding his situation.
Happylittlepunk Posted January 28 Posted January 28 4 hours ago, Trent W said: yeah and I’ve also heard **** stories about women my main point is that is stupid generalize the entire gender as x Both genders have their fair share of toxic people That’s why I consider people who say men/women are trash extremely dumb It’s clear that there a huge chunk of toxic women and I also speaking of experience dating women. Of course not all are toxic but this narrative that there more toxic men than women isn’t true. If anything it’s way more equal more than ever. Toxicity for both genders. 2 1
Happylittlepunk Posted January 28 Posted January 28 19 hours ago, elevate said: Not that surprising. Not to be crude, but I'm pretty sure this boils down to sex and dating. Girls are more empowered + smarter than ever and are saying NO to toxic men. In response, men are claiming they're being victimised and unfairly labelled as toxic, rather than reflecting on their behaviour and the WHY of many women feel unsafe around them. Things will get better eventually because this generation of women will only procreate with the good guys. The rest will be left to die off. It's a shame the process can't be sped up, but it is what it is. This is not true at all. Look up tik tok and instagram more men are exposing women in the last 4 years for being extremely toxic and abusive. More men are also starting to say no to straight women too in alarming rate now especially in the last 2 years. More men have been complaint that women want a man who is traditional that takes care of the bills, dates, etc. yet those same men can’t have any standards for women or have any type of expectations because he will be label as sexist or trump supporter. The old school “it’s either my way or the highway routine.”
Communion Posted January 28 Posted January 28 6 hours ago, GraceRandolph said: I think there’s a big problem with the educational system. I’ve heard so many stories of largely female teachers pathologizing male student behavior from a young age. We are clearly not getting something right in terms of young men and boys as a society. 4 hours ago, Domination said: I’m not sure they have. The average working class man has never had a place in art and philosophy. Maybe those who had the luxury of attending higher education. 3 hours ago, Espresso said: The blame for that isn’t entirely on the donor class though but cultural norms among blue-collar men to begin with on what they’re allowed to like, which isn’t entirely dictated by that donor class to begin with. This discussion in general also misattributes the idea that the issue is the culture war fissure and not that the culture war is being used to siphon out men already wrecked by economic instability. I can't speak to countries outside of the US, but working class nor traditional are synonyms for conservative. That Democrats are *losing* working class men after having for decades won them shows this is not some issue of working class men being traditionally right-wing. Let alone that many high-income (non-degreed, sure) men are themselves often conservative show it just does conservatives a favor to center the cultural element over class. I know better than to suggest it's ONLY class. Once values have percolated long enough, they often can't be undone, but it feels like a huge misdiagnosis to think working class men would still be flocking to men who say women deserve to be gang-raped if the atomization that makes them open to radicalization wasn't there. 1
Trent W Posted January 28 Posted January 28 1 hour ago, Happylittlepunk said: This is not true at all. Look up tik tok and instagram more men are exposing women in the last 4 years for being extremely toxic and abusive. More men are also starting to say no to straight women too in alarming rate now especially in the last 2 years. More men have been complaint that women want a man who is traditional that takes care of the bills, dates, etc. yet those same men can’t have any standards for women or have any type of expectations because he will be label as sexist or trump supporter. The old school “it’s either my way or the highway routine.” Also I love how much people like to ignore how men are still expected to “Man up” and provide for wife and kids while women who now work and married want to keep the money for them and men to keep the family expenses. There is so many women promoting this ridiculous idea And again it gets ignored all the time
Khal Posted January 28 Posted January 28 21 hours ago, elevate said: Not that surprising. Not to be crude, but I'm pretty sure this boils down to sex and dating. Girls are more empowered + smarter than ever and are saying NO to toxic men. In response, men are claiming they're being victimised and unfairly labelled as toxic, rather than reflecting on their behaviour and the WHY of many women feel unsafe around them. Things will get better eventually because this generation of women will only procreate with the good guys. The rest will be left to die off. It's a shame the process can't be sped up, but it is what it is. Lol, are we sure this is happening? Just in the past year, we have had about three high profile women (i.e. women who through their money and status should be able to secure better men) who are within the age demographic in the graph procreate with obviously shitty men. While three is a small sample size, if women who are in the position to be picky are still ending up with seemingly awful men, then I'm not so sure other women who can't afford to be as picky will end up with "good men"
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