base talk Why aren't critics and publications putting Gag Order on Best of 2023 YE lists?

[TomTom]

2 minutes ago, liquiddiamonds said:

Girl, there’s absolutely nothing in Gag Order that critics haven’t seen in other albums from the last decade. It takes chances for a Kesha album, but not in comparison to indie and alternative albums. Critics don’t listen to only pop girls. From the top of my head Gag Order shares sounds with Anohni’s debut solo album, Yeezus, Majical Cloudz, The Age of Adz. I could go on if I went to my Apple library. Nobody is going to acclaim something just in comparison to Kesha’s own albums…

1) Feel free to share evidence for the bolded part.

2) Nobody said that Gag Order is the most unusual album ever released, so whether you believe there are other albums that are more left-field really isn't relevant at all and that wasn't the point either.

3) Kesha is a female pop star who primarily released pop music throughout her career, so I don't know why you believe professional indie and alternative artists that have little to no overlap with her must be injected into this discussion as a unit of comparison.

 

30 minutes ago, allforyou said:

If you read my reply I didn't say the album was bad, it's just not one of the best albums of the year. Objectively speaking it is not a bad record but it's not great either, it's somewhere in the middle. I never said that the public consensus was that this album wasn’t good, I simply stated my personal opinion. People are allowed to have their own preferences and opinions regarding music. I've seen a lot of people not like something I enjoy very much but I still don't go out of my way to call out people for not liking the same things I do. 
It's quite odd to me that you're saying someone is wrong for simply not liking something  An opinion cannot be wrong or right.

You have the right to love the album just as other people have the right to not like it.

Anyway I like Kesha and now that she's finally free I hope she gets all the success she deserves.

You literally said Gag Order has no memorable moments or melodies, leaves no impression on the listener and is worse than High Road...that's about the biggest possible dislike you can express (especially the High Road part). I appreciate the clarification, but that's simply not how you talk about an album "somewhere in the middle" . I explicitly stated twice that everyone is entitled to their opinion, but you didn't phrase your opinion as opinion, but rather as an objective fact and didn't really elaborate your reasoning either.

[liquiddiamonds]

1 minute ago, TomTom said:

1) Feel free to share evidence for the bolded part.

2) Nobody said that Gag Order is the most unusual album ever released, so whether you believe there are other albums that are more left-field really isn't relevant at all and that wasn't the point either.

3) Kesha is a female pop star who primarily released pop music throughout her career, so I don't know why you believe professional indie and alternative artists that have little to no overlap with her must be injected into this discussion as a unit of comparison.

Because it’s no longer 1999. Critics won’t praise to the heavens a pop artist for taking a left-turn, unless it becomes a moment worthy of canonization. They are way more likely to praise a well done pop album filled with hooks that generated a narrative for the year. Gag Order isn’t that. Kesha is not the first artist to have a pop career and take a turn after her peak. Scott Walker, Marianne Faithfull, David Sylvain, it’s something that has happened all the time…. with much more out there results. And of course I will bring indie and alternative albums that did these experiments to critical acclaim, because it’s exactly why what she does is not new for audiences that go beyond pop

[bearman]

Again, the fact that multiple reputable publications remembered this historic bomb 8 months after release is a win. No one is saying this is the best album of the year but it clearly left some kind of mark and would have been on even more lists if it was promoted more. 

 

It's on Slate's best albums list which is even more left-field leaning than Pitchfork.

[TomTom]

3 minutes ago, liquiddiamonds said:

Because it’s no longer 1999. Critics won’t praise to the heavens a pop artist for taking a left-turn, unless it becomes a moment worthy of canonization. They are way more likely to praise a well done pop album filled with hooks that generated a narrative for the year. Gag Order isn’t that. Kesha is not the first artist to have a pop career and take a turn after her peak. Scott Walker, Marianne Faithfull, David Sylvain, it’s something that has happened all the time…. with much more out there results. And of course I will bring indie and alternative albums that did these experiments to critical acclaim, because it’s exactly why what she does is not new for audiences that go beyond pop

None of this has anything to do with the questions I asked and the points I raised .

[liquiddiamonds]

14 minutes ago, TomTom said:

None of this has anything to do with the questions I asked and the points I raised .

It has everything to do with what you quoted from my comment and you stay quoting me and ignoring. Let me spell it out for you:

 

Your whole first argument is that Kesha is a pop star that took an unexpected turn with genres most wouldn’t imagine she would do. My counterpoint is that this in itself is not worthy of acclaim in 2023. It’s been part of the playbook for years. Other artists have done this before with more experimental results, so this won’t gag music critics. Moreover, we’re no longer in a rockist environment of music criticism, so these genres are not considered above commonplace pop music. You have GUTS, a fairly common pop/rock album, dominating the EOYs because it generated discourse and did nostalgia well enough with hooks. This is the current environment 

Your point was to criticize my take that no new ideas were found. Then you moved the target when I mentioned albums that share some sonic ideas. Kesha even worked with collaborators from these records for Gag Order… and you then wanted to disqualify my argument for mentioning alternative albums that been there done that for critics. Yeah, it’s a plot twist for Kesha’s music, but these are well-established genres and sounds for years for music critics, because they are prone to acclaim alt and indie music more often. 
 

I didn’t even mention, but although Rick Rubin is not a pop girl producer, a Max Martin, he is a pop producer for rock bands. He is behind some of the most commercially successful albums from the last 30 years. It’s not a left field choice! 
 

Can you please stop quoting me just because you came over all arrogantly thinking we all listened to only pop music in your OG comment and thats why we found Gag Order bad (which I didn’t, I just claimed it wasn’t as original to be worthy of many lists for how little noise it made)? You got clocked with my reasoning and stay moving the target

 

Edited December 31, 2023 by liquiddiamonds

[TomTom]

20 minutes ago, liquiddiamonds said:

Your whole first argument is that Kesha is a pop star that took an unexpected turn with genres most wouldn’t imagine she would do. My counterpoint is that this in itself is not worthy of acclaim in 2023. It’s been part of the playbook for years. Other artists have done this before with more experimental results, so this won’t gag music critics. Moreover, we’re no longer in a rockist environment of music criticism, so these genres are not considered above commonplace pop music. You have GUTS, a fairly common pop/rock album, dominating the EOYs because it generated discourse and did nostalgia well enough with hooks. This is the current environment 

I never said that genre change should be a reason for acclaim nor that Kesha is the only artist to have done such a thing. I said that in reply to users who called the album "boring" or "uninteresting". Even if you don't like the music, those kind of words are misplaced for an album that is strong a sonic departure from previous work for an artist. That's it. 

 

20 minutes ago, liquiddiamonds said:

Your point was to criticize my take that no new ideas were found. Then you moved the target when I mentioned albums that share some sonic ideas. Kesha even worked with collaborators from these records for Gag Order… and you then wanted to disqualify my argument for mentioning alternative albums that been there done that for critics. Yeah, it’s a plot twist for Kesha’s music, but these are well-established genres and sounds for years for music critics, because they are prone to acclaim alt and indie music more often. 

That's also not what I expressed at all. I wasn't talking about the perspective of music critics, I simply asked you the basic question why you believe it is necessary to compare Kesha to artists that - until now - have had little to no musical connection with her, aren't associated with her and share no notable overlap with her. You can always compare everything with each other, that doesn't mean the comparison makes sense. The fact that critics reviewed albums by such artists you mentioned is besides the point.

 

20 minutes ago, liquiddiamonds said:

I didn’t even mentioned, but although Rick Rubin is not a pop girl producer, a Max Martin, he is a pop producer for rock bands. He is behind some of the most commercially successful albums from the last 30 years. It’s not a left field choice! 

I said that Rick Rubin never produced a whole female pop star album before (to my knowledge) in response to you and others calling the album boring and not innovative. That's it. Nobody said that Rick Rubin is a left-field producer without success, I even mentioned his "large discography". So, please stop putting words into my mouth.

 

20 minutes ago, liquiddiamonds said:

Can you please stop quoting me just because you came over all arrogantly thinking we all listened to only pop music in your OG comment and thats why we found Gag Order bad (which I didn’t, I just claimed it wasn’t as original to be worthy of many lists for how little boise it made)? You got clocked with my reasoning and stay moving the target

I think the only person who got clocked here is you for not properly reading any of the things you respond to or intentionally misconstruing them to fit your narrative.

Edited December 31, 2023 by TomTom

[liquiddiamonds]

11 minutes ago, TomTom said:

I never said that genre change should be a reason for acclaim nor that Kesha is the only artist to have done such a thing. I said that in reply to users who called the album "boring" or "uninteresting". Even if you don't like the music, those kind of words are misplaced for an album that is strong a sonic departure from previous work for an artist. That's it. 

 

That's also not what I expressed at all. I wasn't talking about the perspective of music critics, I simply asked you the basic question why you believe it is necessary to compare Kesha to artists that - until now - have had little to no musical connection with her, aren't associated with her and share no notable overlap with her. You can always compare everything with each other, that doesn't mean the comparison makes sense. The fact that critics reviewed albums by such artists you mentioned is besides the point.

 

I said that Rick Rubin never produced a whole female pop star album before (to my knowledge) in response to you and others calling the album boring and not innovative. That's it. Nobody said that Rick Rubin is a left-field producer without success, I even mentioned his "large discography". So, please stop putting words into my mouth.

 

I think the only person who got clocked here is you for not properly reading any of the things you respond to or intentionally misconstruing them to fit your narrative.

The whole thread is about music critics and why they didn’t acclaim Gag Order as hard as they could’ve. I was replying to the topic. Now you say it’s not about music critic’s’ perspectives. Honey then what is it about? You didn’t even know Kesha worked with the people in some of the albums I mentioned, because you clearly didn’t check the credits beyond Rubin. Critics have acclaimed these records, which means they have given the flowers to these sounds before. Why drop the Rick Rubin association if not to make it superior to other pop girls? You stay changing the goal and pretending you didn’t come with the whole “you think it’s bad because it’s not your taste” argument 

[Archetype]

It’s just not a memorable or particularly unique album.  It’s cool that Kesha took a risk by making more experimental music, but that doesn’t mean said music is going to be something listeners and critics alike are going to vibe with.  IMO some songs sounded like Radiohead imitation but in a bad way.

Edited December 31, 2023 by Archetype

[TomTom]

Just now, liquiddiamonds said:

The whole thread is about music critics and why they didn’t acclaim Gag Order as hard as they could’ve. I was replying to the topic. Now you say it’s not about music critic’s’ perspectives. Honey then what is it about?

You were replying to my comments and I pointed out that I didn't actually say any of the things you accuse me of, yet you accuse me of moving the goalposts .

 

2 minutes ago, liquiddiamonds said:

You didn’t even know Kesha worked with the people in some of the albums I mentioned, because you clearly didn’t check the credits beyond Rubin.

Huh? Why would you even think that? And even if that was the case, that still doesn't answer my question.

 

3 minutes ago, liquiddiamonds said:

Why drop the Rick Rubin association if not to make it superior to other pop girls?

So NOW you're talking about other pop girls again? Interesting!

[dawnettakins]

Maybe because an album has to actually be good in order to be?

 

Idk just a thought. Hope it helps. 

[CottageHore]

Because it’s not good. Idk why just because she shifted to a less generic and pop-evasive sound, so many of you are pretending like she’s making some deeply artistic and nuanced masterpiece. It’s just not that good, unfortunately. 

Edited December 31, 2023 by CottageHore

[CottageHore]

9 minutes ago, TomTom said:

You were replying to my comments and I pointed out that I didn't actually say any of the things you accuse me of, yet you accuse me of moving the goalposts .

 

Huh? Why would you even think that? And even if that was the case, that still doesn't answer my question.

 

So NOW you're talking about other pop girls again? Interesting!

Not you lurking in this thread, just waiting to relentlessly defend this boring album. Kesha doesn’t care nearly as much as you and she’s doing just fine without being on EOTY lists. Go for a walk, my love! 

[Gelato]

I love Kesha but I haven't been a fan of the production on her last two albums. It's the other producers letting her down. Otherwise she should be on every year end list

[fa77ot]

2 hours ago, TomTom said:

 

 

 

 

 

What kind of massive lies are being shared in this thread?

 

Gag Order is at least as or sometimes more well-received than Rainbow on user-based rating sites. Rainbow did slightly better with professional critics because it received more professional reviews since it was a successful era and Gag Order sadly wasn't. Likewise, it received more/higher placements on year-end lists because the album simply made more of an impact in pop culture than Gag Order thanks to the aforementioned success. Nevertheless, like @bearman said and as shown above, Gag Order received decent recognition on year-end lists for a pop album with no commercial success whatsoever. Not just the album, but also individual songs like "Eat The Acid" or even "Hate Me Harder". You don't have to like the album, but the general consensus objectively disagrees with that sentiment. Calling it worse than High Road - even if that is your personal opinion - is completely removed from the actual reception of this album at large. High Road didn't land on a single list by any outlet anywhere and I'm not even talking about the controversial reception among even hardcore fans, both of which could not be any more different from Gag Order.

 

Furthermore, it's crazy to claim that Gag Order "doesn't actually bring any new inventive ideas" or "comes and goes and doesn't leave that much of an impression". Thematically and lyrically, it is a very heavy and dark album that deals with subjects that rarely play a role in pop culture at all. Musically, it is an album that is unlike anything Kesha ever released - exploring genres she never touched before and that most people would never have associated with Kesha. Rick Rubin also never produced a whole album for a female pop star before despite his large discography. No matter how you look at it, Gag Order is quite an unusual album for a pop star like Kesha. Again, you don't have to like it if it doesn't fit your personal taste, but calling Gag Order a bad and boring album is objectively wrong when you look at the facts.

 

Katy stan 

[prézli]

Peace & Quiet is THE BEST SONG OF 2023 in my book.

[loveisdead9582]

1 hour ago, TomTom said:

I never said that genre change should be a reason for acclaim nor that Kesha is the only artist to have done such a thing. I said that in reply to users who called the album "boring" or "uninteresting". Even if you don't like the music, those kind of words are misplaced for an album that is strong a sonic departure from previous work for an artist. That's it. 

 

That's also not what I expressed at all. I wasn't talking about the perspective of music critics, I simply asked you the basic question why you believe it is necessary to compare Kesha to artists that - until now - have had little to no musical connection with her, aren't associated with her and share no notable overlap with her. You can always compare everything with each other, that doesn't mean the comparison makes sense. The fact that critics reviewed albums by such artists you mentioned is besides the point.

 

I said that Rick Rubin never produced a whole female pop star album before (to my knowledge) in response to you and others calling the album boring and not innovative. That's it. Nobody said that Rick Rubin is a left-field producer without success, I even mentioned his "large discography". So, please stop putting words into my mouth.

 

I think the only person who got clocked here is you for not properly reading any of the things you respond to or intentionally misconstruing them to fit your narrative.

I’m not trying to come at you in a rude way, but you have definitely done the part in bold in this thread - to me for sure. I said that it was one of her weaker albums and there are some reviews out there that agree with me. She also has some more recent albums that were rated higher - which is a better metric since the poptivism movement made them a little more fair. Some of the ratings and reviews for earlier albums aren’t really fair since back then most pop albums were trashed. 
 

I also stated that high road had some memorable songs. Something being memorable is by definition subjective and an opinion since it’s based on someone’s own memory. No where did I say that it was a bad album or even that any song was terrible. You have been attacking and/or downvoting anyone in this thread that disagrees with you when most people simply share similar opinions of it. It’s not a terrible album by any means, but for a lot of us it wasn’t our favorite. You’re entitled to your opinion of Gag Order and if you love it then that’s great. The rest of us are entitled to voice ours as well

[TomTom]

2 minutes ago, loveisdead9582 said:

I’m not trying to come at you in a rude way, but you have definitely done the part in bold in this thread - to me for sure.

Where?

 

3 minutes ago, loveisdead9582 said:

I said that it was one of her weaker albums and there are some reviews out there that agree with me.

And I quoted you because you said it's not memorable which I objectively can not understand based on the factors I mentioned in my original comment. I really don't see how anyone can genuinely believe an album like Gag Order with its backstory, lyrical content, production and genre choices, etc. isn't "memorable". If Gag Order isn't a memorable album, then I don't know what is. I could understand if someone said that about High Road, but Gag Order?

 

4 minutes ago, loveisdead9582 said:

She also has some more recent albums that were rated higher

Where?

 

5 minutes ago, loveisdead9582 said:

Some of the ratings and reviews for earlier albums aren’t really fair since back then most pop albums were trashed. 

That may be true, but that wasn't really my point and I wasn't just talking about professional reviews, but also user-based ratings and year-end lists. That her early discography is under-appreciated in hindsight doesn't negate anything I said about Gag Order either.

 

16 minutes ago, loveisdead9582 said:

Something being memorable is by definition subjective and an opinion since it’s based on someone’s own memory.

What wasn't memorable about Gag Order to you?

 

15 minutes ago, loveisdead9582 said:

You have been attacking and/or downvoting anyone in this thread that disagrees with you when most people simply share similar opinions of it.

Most of the statements I quoted don't qualify as opinions, they are just negative sentiments worded as objective facts without any kind of proper reasoning. That's not an opinion to me a.k.a. personal thoughts that can generate a meaningful discussion. 

 

6 minutes ago, loveisdead9582 said:

No where did I say that it was a bad album or even that any song was terrible.

I also didn't say that you said that? 

[Alaska.]

6 hours ago, TomTom said:

 

 

 

 

 

What kind of massive lies are being shared in this thread?

 

Gag Order is at least as or sometimes more well-received than Rainbow on user-based rating sites. Rainbow did slightly better with professional critics because it received more professional reviews since it was a successful era and Gag Order sadly wasn't. Likewise, it received more/higher placements on year-end lists because the album simply made more of an impact in pop culture than Gag Order thanks to the aforementioned success. Nevertheless, like @bearman said and as shown above, Gag Order received decent recognition on year-end lists for a pop album with no commercial success whatsoever. Not just the album, but also individual songs like "Eat The Acid" or even "Hate Me Harder". You don't have to like the album, but the general consensus objectively disagrees with that sentiment. Calling it worse than High Road - even if that is your personal opinion - is completely removed from the actual reception of this album at large. High Road didn't land on a single list by any outlet anywhere and I'm not even talking about the controversial reception among even hardcore fans, both of which could not be any more different from Gag Order.

 

Furthermore, it's crazy to claim that Gag Order "doesn't actually bring any new inventive ideas" or "comes and goes and doesn't leave that much of an impression". Thematically and lyrically, it is a very heavy and dark album that deals with subjects that rarely play a role in pop culture at all. Musically, it is an album that is unlike anything Kesha ever released - exploring genres she never touched before and that most people would never have associated with Kesha. Rick Rubin also never produced a whole album for a female pop star before despite his large discography. No matter how you look at it, Gag Order is quite an unusual album for a pop star like Kesha. Again, you don't have to like it if it doesn't fit your personal taste, but calling Gag Order a bad and boring album is objectively wrong when you look at the facts.

 

Katy stan 

I mean, Atrl is NOT a good place to discuss anything other than very pop-oriented albums, so the opinions in here are usually pretty tragic. If it came to this place, Kesha would never evolve as an artist and would be stuck with 2010s dance music until retirement.

 

Regardless of how much her albums sell, at least you can expect something different every era, unlike most of her peers who are already on their "legacy act" shtick and either only release new (and uninspired) music to go on tour, or are desperate to get another hit to relive their glory days 

[Bey'Knight]

I honestly didn’t know Kesha released an album this year and I’m a chronic frequenter of this site. 

[keshasfillers]

28 minutes ago, Bey'Knight said:

I honestly didn’t know Kesha released an album this year and I’m a chronic frequenter of this site. 

You should check it out 

Edited December 31, 2023 by keshasfillers

[blueberries]

its not good + no one remembers it exists