base talk HTE vs GUTS, did Billie get the last laugh?

[BtDecember]

9 hours ago, ithinkheknowsoutsold said:

Almost half of Speak Now's weeks in the top ten were tallied in the post-Christmas when it didn't even take 30,000 sales. Comparatively the number 10 album requires close to 45,000 copies now, and we're a month away from Christmas! Album longevity tends to show more over the long run in the streaming era. A big album from the sales era would still far outsell a big streaming era album in its first year. Case in point: Mariah Carey's Emancipation sold close to 5 million copies in its first year compared to just over 3 million for Taylor's Lover. By the end of its third full year, Emancipation was selling less than 80,000 copies yearly. Lover, on the other hand, was still selling closing to a million units.

 

My point is not to degrade Taylor's success with Speak Now or to insinuate that Guts is on the same level as it now, but that having a relatively more moderate selling album following a mega seller is not unprecedented.

You're comparing 2010-2011, which has among the lowest weekly album sales in history (and only counts pure sales) to 2023, which has higher weekly sales, thanks to SPS. Speak Now debuted with 1 million copies, the biggest one-week sale of 2010. The fact that it managed to score five more weeks at #1 and stay in the top 10 for four months after that huge debut and without a huge radio hit is beyond impressive. The album also finished as the third best-selling album of 2010 (very close to the second best-selling album) despite being released in October.

 

In terms of commercial success and critical acclaim, Guts did better than Happier than Ever. Personally, I prefer HTE though. I feel like critics gave Guts better score because it is leaning more to rock, and critics, especially the older onces, are more biased in rock music since they view the genre as "real music" (aka rockism). Guts is still a good album though, but its lyrics and production pales in comparison to HTE.

 

Edited November 15, 2023 by BtDecember
Minor edit

[Klein]

5 minutes ago, liquiddiamonds said:

I framed exactly as an opinion and explained why I found it as such with lyrics, production and consistency, didn’t even mentioned only Taylor, just included her in the batch, because especially the production was a consequence of its time and loudness war. Both Billie and Olivia aren’t afraid (in different levels) of being messy with their lyrical personas and approaching feelings it took entering their 20s to other milennial girls to approach, especially because they have more alternative influences and are coming up at different times, post-Lana and post-Lorde. They write in ways other couldn’t or didn’t give a thought about it. Both Billie and Olivia have explicits songs about abuse they undergone as an example and both released as lead singles without fear of commercial consequences (Your Power, Vampire). I could go on and on why these two are way more interesting imo at such a young age. They own up their **** song by song with great consistent. No wonder critics love both a lot

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree then. Because for me saying that Olivia writes in ways others couldn't at the same age, talking about abuse they undergone and then citing vampire as an example is just plain delusional. Dear John (that I mentioned earlier) deals with the exact same topic as vampire, except much more elevated. 

[Mr. Duff]

Both albums are great. Both albums have great highs, but suffer from different things. HTE is heavily bloated, while GUTS suffer from being too similar to her debut. I love that HTE has a lot of growth from Billie, but it's just so full of fillers. I love that GUTS is a step up from the debut, but it's too similar that people maybe somehow got tired of the sound and are looking for something more innovative.

 

But as I said, both albums are great and are successful and I will continue listening to them. Billie and Olivia did something brilliant. I hope they can continue the momentum as they are both great artists.

[liquiddiamonds]

2 minutes ago, Klein said:

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree then. Because for me saying that Olivia writes in ways others couldn't at the same age, talking about abuse they undergone and then citing vampire as an example is just plain delusional. Dear John (that I mentioned earlier) deals with the exact same topic as vampire, except much more elevated. 

There are plenty of other instances that I feel they are ahead of the curve. Olivia works with accountability in songs in GUTS, which was a development Taylor hadn’t undergone as a writer yet around Speak Now. She has great writing, but it’s pointed at everyone but herself in the more introspective numbers. She knocks out the infatuation songs with bigger than life hooks but fails at achieving self-reflection, even when tackling abuse. Olivia on the other hand has songs like Making the Bed that sees her intertwining her public persona, survivor’s guilt in the industry and how that reflects in the people that make up her private life. This prism of looking at your own celebrity and reflecting on it, without fear of alienating fans (which Billie also adopts in plenty of HTE like in NMR, NDA, GO, etc), was a development Taylor only started to work with around Reputation, and honed from Folklore onwards, peaking with audiences right now with her writing in Anti-Hero. Olivia closes her album reflecting on her own place in the industry, possibly discarded by it; Billie closers hers with a song about *****graphy addiction. These two girls are very good at self-reflection at 19, not filtering topics that would be a no-no for most pop stars in the 2000s-2010s. It’s impressive for someone like me that lived both eras of pop music. Let’s see if it’s a continuous evolution like it was for Taylor or they will peak early. What Was I Made For shows that Billie is just getting better at it

[Klein]

2 minutes ago, liquiddiamonds said:

There are plenty of other instances that I feel they are ahead of the curve. Olivia works with accountability in songs in GUTS, which was a development Taylor hadn’t undergone as a writer yet around Speak Now. She has great writing, but it’s pointed at everyone but herself in the more introspective numbers. 

That's literally the whole point of Back To December, one of the singles, though.

 

2 minutes ago, liquiddiamonds said:

Olivia on the other hand has songs like Making the Bed that sees her intertwining her public persona, survivor’s guilt in the industry and how that reflects in the people that make up her private life. 

Again, that's something Taylor did too. Sure the song wasn't released at the time (Castles Crumbling), but she specifically tackled this question in this song. In a more subdued way, she's tackling this idea of being under a microscope on the song Ours. 

 

Speak Now also has songs about the pressure of growing up (Never Grow Up), about things that are not based on Taylor's life (Mine, Speak Now) (which is a type of writing Olivia still has yet to tackle). There's also the other side of the coin of Castles Crumbling with Long Live, speaking about how amazing her career has been so far and the fear that it would/could go away. 

[FailSafe]

Both are more acclaimed and more successful than certain payola-driven artist

 

 

 

Edited November 15, 2023 by FailSafe

[liquiddiamonds]

20 minutes ago, Klein said:

That's literally the whole point of Back To December, one of the singles, though.

 

Again, that's something Taylor did too. Sure the song wasn't released at the time (Castles Crumbling), but she specifically tackled this question in this song. In a more subdued way, she's tackling this idea of being under a microscope on the song Ours. 

 

Speak Now also has songs about the pressure of growing up (Never Grow Up), about things that are not based on Taylor's life (Mine, Speak Now) (which is a type of writing Olivia still has yet to tackle). There's also the other side of the coin of Castles Crumbling with Long Live, speaking about how amazing her career has been so far and the fear that it would/could go away. 

Yeah, I dont think a song she finished and released in 2023 counts, especially because we don’t know how much of it was at it is now in 2010. If that were the case than Red (Taylor’s Version) also successfully tackled fame much deeper than the OG too with a couple of its vault tracks. And I really

don’t think Ours shares the same themes as these Olivia and Billie songs at all. Long Live doesn’t mess with the negative side of fame either. It just shows that Taylor was filtering things in ways these new girls don’t worry about much. She was focused in presenting herself in a certain way as to not alienate her audience from her pop persona.

 

And Lacy and Can’t Catch Me Now are songs not based on Olivia’s life and pure narrative (according to herself), so she’s been doing that. I much rather when she writes from a personal place, though

 

No comments about the “accountability” in Back to December, though. It’s more of a regret song lol Even her pop single I Knew You Were Trouble is closer to the incorporation of accountability in getting herself in a situation that these new girls are working with

Edited November 15, 2023 by liquiddiamonds

[Klein]

10 minutes ago, liquiddiamonds said:

It just shows that Taylor was filtering things in ways these new girls don’t worry about much. She was focused in presenting herself in a certain way as to not alienate her audience from her pop persona.

Well, Olivia and Billie are also presenting themselves in a way that responds to the current culture, so that seems like kind of a mute point. All of these are pop artists, they respond to the cultural landscape of their time. They are doing the exact same thing: chronicling the life of a teenage girl of their time. 

 

19 minutes ago, liquiddiamonds said:

And Lacy and Can’t Catch Me Now are songs not based on Olivia’s life and pure narrative (according to herself), so she’s been doing that. I much rather when she writes from a personal place, though

Didn't know she said Lacy was not based on her own life, my bad. 

[honestopinion]

This topic is so tiring. Billie is on her way to sweep grammys and oscar again, she will always be relevant no matter what 

[Digitalism]

Not this sophmore slump competition 

[AvadaKedavra]

Nope dahling. Her sophomore feels like that Born This Way vs The Fame Monster situation. Billie lost so much traction and power worldwide
Just compare her youtube videos with the first eras.
To be fair the problem were the singles. Billie needed to have Happier Than Ever as a lead. Im totally sure the era with that song would have been SO MUCH bigger
The haircut was a problem too. The blonde washes her out and the cut was not sophisticted. She was serving 60 years old woman. Her colored hairs or black is miles better
Your Power and Lost Cause were big mistakes too. 
Now shes' in risk of turning into another Lana Del Rey. Thats amazing but i want Billie to be bigger in the charts and still have successful singles
Im rooting for a reinvention and Billie reaching top 10-5 with multiple songs. I know she can do it. 

Now the Olivia situation is entirelly different. Bad Team-They Messed the Singles-losing the swifities-She needed to show more evolution-She's asian and is harder to attract a fanbase,,,,Still she got a nr1  not everyone has that




 

Edited November 15, 2023 by AvadaKedavra

[luckythisway]

16 hours ago, houdini said:

Most music publications agree that Guts is better. It got higher reviews by Pitchfork, Rolling Stone, Independent to name a few. Also stands at a 91 on Metacritic (deservingly so) which is higher than HTE.

I wonder why ppl care so much about critic/publication reviews when these are the scores they give to an album like GUTS… someone’s paying someone that’s for sure 

 

Edited November 15, 2023 by luckythisway

[raven]

[RideOrDie]

41 minutes ago, luckythisway said:

I wonder why ppl care so much about critic/publication reviews when these are the scores they give to an album like GUTS… someone’s paying someone that’s for sure 

 

or they simply got it right this time

 

[Daddy]

HTE is a masterpiece while GUTS is just another Olivia Rodrigo album  

[unclefloprry]

10 hours ago, Cloudy said:

Olivia was a fad

She only achieved success in 2021, maybe you are right.

[wish]

12 hours ago, ImperialCuntess said:

Happier Than Ever is a shift to a more visceral ambitious stripped back electronic infused pop, relying greatly on its melodic compositions and songwriting. By adopting a less immediate and more traditional approach it showcased her raw musicality.

Love this description, it explains exactly why I prefer HTE to WWAFA  HTE is such a well-written and well-sung album, Billie's talent really shines on that record and I'm glad other people feel the same way

[Maroonx]

12 hours ago, Klein said:

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree then. Because for me saying that Olivia writes in ways others couldn't at the same age, talking about abuse they undergone and then citing vampire as an example is just plain delusional. Dear John (that I mentioned earlier) deals with the exact same topic as vampire, except much more elevated. 

YESSSSS 

 

 

We're also talking about a girl who sang about getting her drivers license... GROUNDBREAKING/EARTH SHATTERING accomplishment right? 

 

I got my driver's license last week
Just like we always talked about
'Cause you were so excited for me
To finally drive up to your house

 

This is cringe af, i'm sorry...

[Blackout2006]

On 11/15/2023 at 12:24 AM, houdini said:

Most people also agree that its a downgrade from WWAFAWDWG.

What is this fanfiction? Many people switched to Billie fans after listening to HTE, and multiple people said it is better than her debut (such as me) 

[Blackout2006]

On 11/15/2023 at 2:09 AM, Credit said:

and man's fantasy were left off

How to make your opinion invalid 101 tutorial

[Blackout2006]

On 11/15/2023 at 8:01 AM, badgirlriri said:

Obviously. So much claims of how she was going to outdo Sour or do on-par and how Billie was replaced, just for it to be only slightly outpacing HTE week-to-week and who knows what that will end up looking like in the long run. That's with Billie not being a radio/singles artist, coming off one of the most intense hate trains of recent times, and having a very messy rollout and generally dealing with "overexposed" allegations. Meanwhile, Olivia's return was highly anticipated, she had a normal traditional rollout and was coming off of a 2 year break, yet has seemingly lost a lot of her singles power the one thing that really differentiated her from Billie and the era doesn't come across as more impressive than HTE. So it's obvious why people are saying Billie has gotten the last laugh.

 

And I love Olivia and I've been streaming GUTS a lot the past few months, but the Livies really had this coming.  Also, Billie achieving her critical scores at the height of her hate train where it would've been easy for publications to bandwagon against her (and some tried) is more impressive to me than the publications wrongly assuming Olivia was in for a blockbuster era and now looking foolish. Metacritic as a whole is a deeply unserious site at this point and I think the year-end list and decade-end in the long-run will be very telling as far as how seriously we should take its score. 

[Blackout2006]

On 11/15/2023 at 1:52 PM, Mr. Duff said:

HTE is heavily bloated, while GUTS suffer from being too similar to her debut.

...Both of these r wrong?

[SixWholeYears]

HTE is a masterpiece, Guts has 3-4 songs that are listenable.

[Blackout2006]

On 11/15/2023 at 5:17 PM, AvadaKedavra said:

ust compare her youtube videos with the first eras.

No, because that would be jumping over the fact that the general traction for music videos has drastically reduced since Billie's first album...Even Taylor Swift who was a force on YouTube during the mid-late 2010s has not seen any video cross above 200 million views since 2019. Despite the decline of music videos, Billie's videos are still doing very well on YouTube. 'Happier Than Ever' is still one of the few MPG hits since 2021 to hit over 300 million views.

 

Edited November 16, 2023 by Blackout2006

[znake]

This thread is so stupid 

Olivia's sould out tour hasnt started yet, she is bigger than Billie , stop it