news France to ban abayas from schools

[SmittenCake]

3 hours ago, IBeMe said:

 In that case, if France is literally going to monitor dress code than it should be lumped in the same category as nations like Iran, Saudi Arabia and North Korea which all have strict dress codes that are illogical and petty and are enforced by the law. I don’t think France would like to be in that category. (Obviously those other countries are far worse for several other reasons but I’m talking strictly the level of control in terms of outerwear…it’s getting unhinged)

What dress codes does north korea have? And is it really as strict as Iran? 

[ctlp27]

4 minutes ago, IBeMe said:

That doesn’t actually happen. When it did it was due to major terrorist groups killing MIDDLE EASTERN MUSLIMS themselves. ISIS and other terror groups #1 targets were muslims themselves…which shows it was never religious but more political. 99% of Muslim countries don’t do these insane punishments you guys keep saying. Though too many STILL have horrible bans and archaic rules placed on women or LGBTQ+ people of course. But things are getting a little better in that regard (especially women rights). You can go to any North African Muslim country and see women dressed however they like. The LGBT topic is still taboo but I guess it will also progress eventually. 

To be fair, it did happen. Samuel Paty, a professor, was beheaded.

Edited August 28, 2023 by ctlp27

[IBeMe]

Just now, SmittenCake said:

What dress codes does north korea have? And is it really as strict as Iran? 

Yeah apparently u gotta have two hair cuts you can choose from and tons of clothing is banned. Could be media propaganda tho. I can’t tell what’s true anymore

[IBeMe]

1 minute ago, ctlp27 said:

To be fair, it did happen. Samuel Paty, a professor, was beheaded.

By who? By terrorists  right? The comment i was responding to was referring to governments. 

Edited August 28, 2023 by IBeMe

[Talento]

3 minutes ago, IBeMe said:

That doesn’t actually happen. When it did it was due to major terrorist groups killing MIDDLE EASTERN MUSLIMS themselves. ISIS and other terror groups #1 targets were muslims themselves…which shows it was never religious but more political. 99% of Muslim countries don’t do these insane punishments you guys keep saying. Though too many STILL have horrible bans and archaic rules placed on women or LGBTQ+ people of course. But things are getting a little better in that regard (especially women rights). You can go to any North African Muslim country and see women dressed however they like. The LGBT topic is still taboo but I guess it will also progress eventually. 

Yeah sure it doesn't happen, if you can't be bothered to one quick Google search 

 

https://apnews.com/article/middle-east-iran-crime-dubai-united-arab-emirates-e3d7108441665c40982329f26ff07fc9

 

It's incredible that the user I quoted dismissed homophobia in the Middle East as "oppressing f***" but you had a problem with me pointing out facts instead  

 

[IBeMe]

1 minute ago, Talento said:

Yeah sure it doesn't happen, if you can't be bothered to one quick Google search 

 

https://apnews.com/article/middle-east-iran-crime-dubai-united-arab-emirates-e3d7108441665c40982329f26ff07fc9

 

It's incredible that the user I quoted dismissed homophobia in the Middle East as "oppressing f***" but you had a problem with me pointing out facts instead  

 

What? Your comment wasn’t a quote. I didn’t see your convo with someone else lol 

 

—-

 

but yes I do know Saudi Arabia and Iran are gutter trash. I think the world knows that. Yet it’s important to know there are dozens of Muslim countries too out there and though their laws are not progressive for the most part I’m just saying the vast majority do not do those weird executions and stuff we keep saying they do. Muslims themselves despise the rules Saudi Arabia and Iran have 

Edited August 28, 2023 by IBeMe

[State of Grace.]

22 minutes ago, Talento said:

Yes, one side is beheading people who don't obey their rules, the other isn't Yay human rights! I guess.

Yeah I'm not entertaining yalls braindead takes.

 

Just gonna say you cannot identify as a feminist and claim that you give a **** about women's rights while also getting behind this decision. Have a nice day!

[Embustera]

11 minutes ago, ctlp27 said:

To be fair, it did happen. Samuel Paty, a professor, was beheaded.

And how many people did France beheaded in Algeria? I can post picture if you are interested..

[OmegaRidley]

1 hour ago, State of Grace. said:

This take is not it and it's not the gotcha moment you want it to be. One side is oppressing **** and the other one is deciding what girls should and should not wear. Yay women rights! I guess.

 

OT: France remains trash. Not surprised. 

But why is it that muslims encourage those anti-lgbt countries and prevent western societies from criticizing them by saying they do what they want in their countries, yet the same individuals condemn what france is doing ? 
 

is it hypocrisy ? 

[ctlp27]

56 minutes ago, Embustera said:

And how many people did France beheaded in Algeria? I can post picture if you are interested..

I do not see the relevance to the statement I corrected.

[velocity]

no country should ever be able to tell us what to wear

 

5 hours ago, Keter said:

I personally don’t see a problem with France setting certain rules for itself as a sovereign state. I would also expect respect to be shown to style of dress requirements in a place like Saudi Arabia, etc. 

i also agree with this sentiment. either we protest and are against it in every country, or we accept it in every country

[SmittenCake]

4 hours ago, IBeMe said:

Yeah apparently u gotta have two hair cuts you can choose from and tons of clothing is banned. Could be media propaganda tho. I can’t tell what’s true anymore

yeah...propaganda 

[Communion]

5 hours ago, ctlp27 said:

To be fair, it did happen. Samuel Paty, a professor, was beheaded.

Are you trolling? Their posts clearly says the governments of said nations referenced, and makes a point that of course Islamic terrorism exists, yet no one talks about 99% of the victims of Islamic terrorism... are other Muslims themselves.

[playboi]

I'm French and culturally muslim and I support this  

 

This new generation of muslim teens is ridiculous, not even their parents were that conservative back in the 90s/2000s. It's time to set some boundaries because this isn't a muslim country. 

[RockStarShit101]

[Jynx]

[Windy Day]

47 minutes ago, playboi said:

I'm French and culturally muslim and I support this  

 

This new generation of muslim teens is ridiculous, not even their parents were that conservative back in the 90s/2000s. It's time to set some boundaries because this isn't a muslim country. 

literally same. the people complaining in this thread are nothing but non french white activists and are NOT muslim or arab  they dont understand anything

[Communion]

3 hours ago, playboi said:

I'm French and culturally muslim and I support this  

 

This new generation of muslim teens is ridiculous, not even their parents were that conservative back in the 90s/2000s. It's time to set some boundaries because this isn't a muslim country. 

 

2 hours ago, Windy Day said:

literally same. the people complaining in this thread are nothing but non french white activists and are NOT muslim or arab  they dont understand anything

Of course people outside of France are going to have an opinion about France taking what is ironically a very conservative stance on dress and personal expression. Let alone, as mentioned in the article, the French left do not agree with this policy and call it culture war bait. 

 

For even major Western powers alone, it exposes a double standard that then causes uncomfortable discussions about global relations and foreign policy. 

 

We're meant to believe the US should not have any relations with countries that are conservative like Iran because of the mistreatment of women and queer folks while then enabling Western countries like France with their authoritarian stances on religion or Poland that has legally recognized no go zones for LGBT people?

 

The anti-Muslim policies that the US has accused China of have actually been put into practice in a country like France.

 

You don't even have to look at it in the "bad vs bad" sense and mention Iran or China even. Look at Cuba becoming one of the most progressive nations in Latin America yet the US refusing any international relations while countries like France and other European nations are allowed to institute illiberal policies in the name of "preserving Western identity and cohesion" that would be deemed authoritarian if done by a left-wing, non-white country in the Global South. 

 

This is literally the point @IBeMe was making before people became trolls and were like "durr durr Muslim terrorists!!". France has the sovereignty to do what it pleases, but we don't have to play word games and ignore that what it's doing is not feminist or liberal but reactionary, conservative and illiberal. Call a spade a spade. If you're proud of France pushing conservative policies, be proud to own that title of conservatism. 

Edited August 29, 2023 by Communion

[State of Grace.]

2 hours ago, Windy Day said:

literally same. the people complaining in this thread are nothing but non french white activists and are NOT muslim or arab  they dont understand anything

I am North African and ex-Muslim. Oh trust me I do know and understand a LOT when it comes to this topic, especially with France being in it dddddddd

 

Yall can support this decision without trying to paint it as progressive and feminist because that it is not

[OmegaRidley]

3 hours ago, playboi said:

I'm French and culturally muslim and I support this  

 

This new generation of muslim teens is ridiculous, not even their parents were that conservative back in the 90s/2000s. It's time to set some boundaries because this isn't a muslim country. 

Exactly. 
 

They don’t even realize how the majority of them celebrate queer folks getting oppressed and KILLED on a regular basis. 
 

Just check the comments on LGBT news on social media where most of them celebrate and congratulate countries who oppress us. 
 

Y’all need to stop seeing muslims as kind and innocent towards us and step out of your little bubbles because the second they get the chance to exterminate us they would. 

[Communion]

59 minutes ago, State of Grace. said:

I am North African and ex-Muslim. Oh trust me I do know and understand a LOT when it comes to this topic, especially with France being in it dddddddd

 

Yall can support this decision without trying to paint it as progressive and feminist because that it is not

The way 99% of arguments on ATRL about Islam is people not realizing that their rejection of conservative forms of Islam does not then make their own views somehow not conservative too. 

 

See: A user like @playboi talking about "conservative teens" while in another thread defending rampant transphobia and peddling conspiracy theories that puberty blockers are a "Big Pharma" scheme.  

 

These ideologues just 10-20 years ago would be openly proud of being illiberal and conservative, but the popularity of progressivism has made the co-option of it en vogue, so now somehow these conversations are burdened by people swearing up and down legislating what a woman can wear IS somehow the right, progressive thing to do.

 

Edit: The post below this one proving the point by both deriding identity politics ("just because someone is a minority doesn't mean their religion is right!!!") and then employing it to silence criticisms of illiberalism to said groups ("be quiet white Americans!!!"). 

Edited August 29, 2023 by Communion

[MonsterJohn]

4 hours ago, playboi said:

I'm French and culturally muslim and I support this  

 

This new generation of muslim teens is ridiculous, not even their parents were that conservative back in the 90s/2000s. It's time to set some boundaries because this isn't a muslim country. 

 

3 hours ago, Windy Day said:

literally same. the people complaining in this thread are nothing but non french white activists and are NOT muslim or arab  they dont understand anything

Thank you for speaking up from your own experience 

 

Unlike whatever BS coming from the new jersey white gay with white knight syndrome 

[welham]

If the law is imposed on other religious clothings or iconography, then this is completely fair. I have my reservations since I find it hard to believe the law would be applied equally in all regions of France, but in principle I don't find that offensive. 

 

I'm sorry, but people saying "it's not even religious clothing" are either being ignorant or trolling. That kind of clothing was worn for specific purposes related to hot climates, and it became heavily associated and viewed as "Muslim clothing" especially in the Middle East. Islam wasn't the origin of this type of clothing, but to say that it is not associated among certain communities with religious notions of "modesty, virtue, and chastity" and all that crap is quite disingenuous (and not even just exclusive to Muslim communities). This is especially since women more than men are influenced to wear it. Men might wear it as well, but it would be delusional to think or say that wearing it has the same connotation for both genders. There is no reason why this type of clothing would be worn in a place like France other than to uphold a certain cultural-religious tradition that is based on sexist oppression against women. There is really no ifs and buts about it. Countries impose restrictions on a lot of things that cause harm to society if left unchecked/unregulated, and growing religious extremism is no different. 

 

People and countries don't exist in a vaccum. We live in a world that has historically (and to this day) oppressed women at every level, and attitudes regulating and shaping the narratives around women's clothing are prevelant everywhere. Countries and societies everywhere make decisions to adop prinicipally illiberal legistlations all the time. Alcohol consumption is restricted when it comes to drunk driving and whatnot for example., because it does harm to society. Legislation regulating women's religious/religious/adjacent clothing is illiberal in principle, but France does not exist in a vacuum that would give it the luxury to sit back and let Islamic extremism continue to spread -which threatens so many communities and especially the LGBT community. I'm sick and tired of having to sit back and sing the "not all Muslims!!!1!1" mantra every time a homophobic tyrade rips pur community. The vast majority of the worldwide Muslim population are hostile to our community, whether their hostility is as extreme as Iran's or not. Islam as a religion perpetuates homophobia at all levels. As another user mentioned, Muslims and Arabs have been increasingly flooding LGBT+ pages with homophobic attacks even when these pages have nothing to do with Islam, Muslim countries/societies, or advocacy at all. There could be a meme or a cute same-sex couple doing cute **** and the commentators would lose their ****. It's unbearable, and I refuse to stay silenced because I'm supposed to be delusional and ignore the obvious problem screaming right in my face. And if someone shoe-horns "b- bu- bu- but da Christiansuh!!1!!!1" to derail the discussion one more time....

[Communion]

13 minutes ago, welham said:

Legislation regulating women's religious/religious/adjacent clothing is illiberal in principle

It doesn't make sense to acknowledge this but then imply that those who disagree with your conclusion may then somehow be enabling the myriad of issues you're concerned about, like Islamic extremism and terrorism. 

 

Don't get me wrong, I get your concern, and it's 100% more respectful that you actually have an argument and point of view reliant on logic - even if I disagree - on the subject matter than the kind of IDPOL or trolling others utilize. "Yes, it's illiberal, but I also think some rights deserve to be violated" is a coherent view, whether I personally agree or disagree.

 

In your very post though, you say you know that these methods are going to be off-putting to liberal-minded people because they'd be reasonably uncomfortable with legislating away women's rights. So while it may be emotionally satiating, I question the alleged efficacy. Do you honestly think virtue signaling like banning the burkini or abaya is going to lower atomization amongst Muslim youth in France, especially those experiencing ghettoization? 

[welham]

16 minutes ago, Communion said:

It doesn't make sense to acknowledge this but then imply that those who disagree with your conclusion may then somehow be enabling the myriad of issues you're concerned about, like Islamic extremism and terrorism. 

 

Don't get me wrong, I get your concern, and it's 100% more respectful that you actually have an argument and point of view reliant on logic - even if I disagree - on the subject matter than the kind of IDPOL or trolling others utilize. "Yes, it's illiberal, but I also think some rights deserve to be violated" is a coherent view, whether I personally agree or disagree.

 

In your very post though, you say you know that these methods are going to be off-putting to liberal-minded people because they'd be reasonably uncomfortable with legislating away women's rights. So while it may be emotionally satiating, I question the alleged efficacy. Do you honestly think virtue signaling like banning the burkini or abaya is going to lower atomization amongst Muslim youth in France, especially those experiencing ghettoization? 

I'll be honest in saying that a part of me does question the the effectiveness of the legistlation as well. Such actions usually cause backlash and lead to the opposite effect, especially in this instance where the French Muslim community already feels targeted as it is. I have no idea what a more effective action would be like. Maybe improving the socio-economic conditions of the Muslim community might help, in tandem with combating external influences (such as Saudi Arabia's Wahhabist ideology export) especially through regulating the flow of foreign money/funding into specific projects/campaigns inside the country. In either case, there is no 100% liberal policy that can be adopted. Everything is regulated to one degree or another, everyone's rights are violated in one way or another. The question is in what areas and to what extent can these "violations" go.

 

I also feel that liberal-minded people need to take a step back and question the direction the left is taking to address the issue. There's a reason religious extremism and reactionary far-right groups continue to grow. Sure, it has a lot to do with the historically right-wing and neo-liberal policies adopted by Western powers at the zenith of their dominanc over the world order. However, in this specific instance, the left largely gives the impression that it brushes the issues under the rug or adops ineffective policies. Integration and blind acceptance is simply not enough, the left has to actually acknowledge and challenge Islamic rhetoric instead of being afraid of giving the impression that they're "imposing Western ideals created by the white man on brown people to erase their culture." I understand the sensitivity inherent in the attempts to change the views of communities who are largely POC, but sometimes some "tough love" is needed. Does that "tough love" necessarily need to come in the shape of bans and strict regulations? I'm unsure. My support of the ban comes from my frustration as a leftist ex-Muslim. I just can't help but feel that nothing effective is being done to even address the issue let alone combat it, so my initial reaction to bans is "finally something is being done." You can describe me as a reationary in this instance I guess. I'm just itching for any action, especially with the rising homophobic rhetoric and influences seemingly everywhere (and in this specific instance within Muslim communities, which have historically been homophobic as it is).

 

The left just feels like it's losing this fight because of ineffective strategies, and it is sticking to these same strategies to the bitter end. There has to be a better way because the left's cultural and political reach and messaging is appallingly incompetent and hollow. Or at least that how if feels like to me.