news Detroit-area city bans Pride flags on public property

[Bosque]

17 hours ago, Horizon Flame said:

The city, as a result of the vote, will only allow flags of the nations that represent the city’s immigrant heritage and the flag of Michigan to be flown. The city’s previous mayor flew the Pride flag from City Hall in 2021, causing a controversy in the community and making it a campaign issue for the newly elected Mayor Amer Ghalib.

 

Why do they need to fly the flags of other nations? Surely they are already represented and we know who they are? 

 

 

[spree]

On 6/14/2023 at 9:43 PM, Trent W said:

I honestly think Lgbtq and other left communities need to pressure the government to stop involving religion in political aspects.

 

It’s the root of all the problems in American society
 

Like the bible needs to be banned in schools and public mentions

 

If they want to ban lgbtq content from public spaces we can also ban those horrible laws based on religion

 

It’s the root of all their hate

 

 

not just in America, but in the entire world.  Religion is the root cause of every war ever known to man.

[Ash12345]

On 6/15/2023 at 1:02 AM, Communion said:

The Congressional representatives voted in from MI-13 and MI-12:

 

 

What percentage of MI12 and MI13 are Muslim? Hamtramck is 35-40x smaller than a congressional district so the demographics of that small community won't carry that much weight in a congressional district.

[Communion]

1 minute ago, Ash12345 said:

Hamtramck is 35-40x smaller

Ah, almost like you've just proven the point that a small conservative enclave is not representative of anything, be it wider demographics of other minorities or actual political movements that can influence elections.

[Ash12345]

On 6/15/2023 at 1:58 PM, KBax said:

“We serve everybody equally with no discrimination but without favoritism,” Ghalib said.

 

Right... but you're favoring the religious public to ban the LGBTQ+ flag from being displayed on their own private property... the LGBTQ+ community still fights for equality and this muthaf**cka wants to talk about serving everyone equally. The backwards mentality of some people 

 

They haven't though? The ban is for public property, so like city hall and schools I guess? You can still fly a pride flag on your porch from what I understand?

[Ash12345]

7 minutes ago, Communion said:

Ah, almost like you've just proven the point that a small conservative enclave is not representative of anything, be it wider demographics of other minorities or actual political movements that can influence elections.

MI13 is representing a bunch of white affluent suburbs (Grosse Pointe, Wyandotte), Detroit's main Hispanic enclave (SW Detroit), some white working class suburbs (ex Taylor, Southgate), Downtown Detroit (lots of students and young professionals of diverse ethnicity), and majority black Detroit neighbourhoods (mostly low income but some more middle class areas around Livernois & 7 Mile), all in addition to Hamtramck.

I guess I just don't see how looking at the representatives elected by a district that's probably less than 5% Muslim is a better representation of what Muslim Americans believe in than looking at the policies being pushed by the one community in the United States that is >50% Muslim. Sure, Hamtramck holds less than 1% of America's Muslim population, but if you want better data, you have to poll Muslim Americans about what they want or believe in, not look at representatives of constituencies that are overwhelmingly not Muslim...

Is this data not accurate about Hamtramck overwhelmingly supporting Democrats?

https://www.bestplaces.net/voting/city/michigan/hamtramck

[Communion]

3 minutes ago, Ash12345 said:

but if you want better data, you have to poll Muslim Americans about what they want or believe in

I do recommend actually reading entire interactions before chiming into them.

 

The person I quoted suggested this small enclave was evidence that polls of Muslim Americans were not accurate. Thus my reply. 

Edited June 17, 2023 by Communion

[Luckitty]

americans always complaining about first world problems 

 

[Aren]

Hamtramck is the only Muslim-majority city in the US, with even all the city council members being Muslims. But I thought Muslim- Americans were some of the most progressive groups in America?? This is actually a perfect example of what happens when Muslims become the majority anywhere and gain political power - they change the law to accommodate their regressive religion.

Edited June 17, 2023 by Aren

[Bosque]

40 minutes ago, Aren said:

Hamtramck is the only Muslim-majority city in the US, with even all the city council members being Muslims. But I thought Muslim- Americans were some of the most progressive groups in America?? This is actually a perfect example of what happens when Muslims become the majority anywhere and gain political power - they change the law to accommodate their regressive religion.

It's okay sis, I can name examples of pro-LGBTQ Muslims who live in completely different states. So we shouldn't talk about this or criticize the city council

[VOSS]

Quote

In 2015, many liberal residents in Hamtramck, Michigan, celebrated as their city attracted international attention for becoming the first in the United States to elect a Muslim-majority city council.

 

They viewed the power shift and diversity as a symbolic but meaningful rebuke of the Islamophobic rhetoric that was a central theme of then Republican presidential candidate Donald Trump’s campaign.

Sorry but what did they think would happen

 

Quote

“There’s a sense of betrayal,” said the former Hamtramck mayor Karen Majewski, who is Polish American. “We supported you when you were threatened, and now our rights are threatened, and you’re the one doing the threatening.”

 

Majewski said the majority is now disrespecting the minority. She noted that a white, Christian-majority city council in 2005 created an ordinance to allow the Muslim call to prayer to be broadcast from the city’s mosques five times daily. It did so over objections of white city residents, and Majewski said she didn’t see the same reciprocity with roles reversed.

Certain ATRL users told me that American Muslims are very supportive of the LGBTQ community. I’m assuming it must be more of a “I support your right to do what you want in the privacy of your own home but keep it away from my children” situation

[Communion]

2 hours ago, Aren said:

Hamtramck is the only Muslim-majority city in the US, with even all the city council members being Muslims. But I thought Muslim- Americans were some of the most progressive groups in America?? This is actually a perfect example of what happens when Muslims become the majority anywhere and gain political power - they change the law to accommodate their regressive religion.

 

13 minutes ago, VOSS said:

Sorry but what did they think would happen

 

Certain ATRL users told me that American Muslims are very supportive of the LGBTQ community. I’m assuming it must be more of a “I support your right to do what you want in the privacy of your own home but keep it away from my children” situation

 

1 hour ago, Dephira said:

It's okay sis, I can name examples of pro-LGBTQ Muslims who live in completely different states. So we shouldn't talk about this or criticize the city council

The reactionary anger in these posts that reveal a complete lack of care about queer people and instead a revenge politick.  And such confidence in such anger despite a complete display of historical illiteracy. 

 

15 years ago half of these posts would have instead read as "I'm tired of white liberals telling me I can't generalize black Americans as homophobic. Prop 8 is evidence enough that they are." 

Edited June 17, 2023 by Communion

[VOSS]

3 minutes ago, Communion said:

 

 

The reactionary anger in these posts that reveal a complete lack of care about queer people and instead a revenge politick.  And such confidence in such anger despite a complete display of historical illiteracy. 

 

15 years ago half of these posts would have instead read as "I'm tired of white liberals telling me I can't generalize black Americans as homophobic. Prop 8 is evidence enough that they are." 

I understand that from your perspective any criticism of Islam is a racist attack against brown people and is not coming from a place of genuine concern about an extreme religion. Don’t know what to tell ya

[Communion]

11 minutes ago, VOSS said:

I understand that from your perspective any criticism of Islam 

Or my perspective is that criticisms that seek to essentialize a group of people are inherently reactionary and rooted in a right-wing bigotry. 

 

You're not "criticizing Islam".  What theological criticism have you offered about scripture?

 

No one said there's no conservative Muslims. No one said youre not allowed to identify when Muslims are conservative. You explicitly decided to bring up people reiterating basic facts like polling data in past threads and go "hmm but I see conservative Muslims. If not all Muslims are pro-LGBT, does that mean the claim that 60% are was a lie?". What do you actually want to say?

Edited June 17, 2023 by Communion

[VOSS]

19 minutes ago, Communion said:

Or my perspective is that criticisms that seek to essentialize a group of people are inherently reactionary and rooted in a right-wing bigotry. 

 

You're not "criticizing Islam".  What theological criticism have you offered about scripture?

 

No one said there's no conservative Muslims. No one said youre not allowed to identify when Muslims are conservative. You explicitly decided to bring up people reiterating basic facts like polling data in past threads and go "hmm but I see conservative Muslims. If not all Muslims are pro-LGBT, does that mean the claim that 60% are was a lie?". What do you actually want to say?

The prophet Muhammad says that gay people should be stoned to death. If a good chunk of American followers of Islam would like to ignore those parts of their religion, that’s fantastic! You see similar things happening in some sects of Christianity. I will still never support either religion and will look at their followers with suspicion.

[Communion]

6 minutes ago, VOSS said:

If a good chunk of American followers of Islam would like to ignore those parts of their religion, that’s fantastic!

We do see that happening, thus the polling data we have.

 

Your post literally tried to suggest that this polling data was a lie. Why?

Do you need me to help you re-read your post?

1 hour ago, VOSS said:

Certain ATRL users told me that American Muslims are very supportive of the LGBTQ community. 

How does recognizing reality serve as a demand that you "support Islam"?

[VOSS]

2 minutes ago, Communion said:

We do see that happening, thus the polling data we have.

 

Your post literally tried to suggest that this polling data was a lie. Why?

Do you need me to help you re-read your post?

How does recognizing reality serve as a demand that you "support Islam"?

I wasn’t denying the polling data, just commenting on the disconnect between the support of Muslim Americans for LGBTQ people and the first Muslim-majority government ever elected in the country almost immediately moving to pass anti-LGBTQ rules.

[Communion]

30 minutes ago, VOSS said:

I wasn’t denying the polling data, just commenting on the disconnect between the support of Muslim Americans for LGBTQ people and the first Muslim-majority government ever elected in the country almost immediately moving to pass anti-LGBTQ rules.

A perceived disconnect... because of believing a small enclave is representative of an entire group? Which is of course your prerogative to have, but let's call a spade a spade and not pretend otherwise.

 

Thus my comment showing the parallels to those who pushed similar essentialist rhetoric around Prop 8. 

 

The essentialist rhetoric pushed around Prop 8's results would end up proven wrong over the following 15 years, so it's also my prerogative to think progressives are onto something when finding reactionary, ostracizing rhetoric largely unhelpful to the kind of political reality that people allegedly want to one-day see.

 

Of course this being nothing personal with you. You were just one of three posts all espousing the same rhetoric (and ironically all 3 of you misremembering and claiming to have been told totally different things - maybe none of you were actually told what you claim to have been!).

Edited June 17, 2023 by Communion

[VOSS]

18 minutes ago, Communion said:

A perceived disconnect... because of believing a small enclave is representative of an entire group? Which is of course your prerogative to have, but let's call a spade a spade and not pretend otherwise.

 

Thus my comment showing the parallels to those who pushed similar essentialist rhetoric around Prop 8. 

 

The essentialist rhetoric pushed around Prop 8's results would end up proven wrong over the following 15 years, so it's also my prerogative to think progressives are onto something when finding reactionary, ostracizing rhetoric largely unhelpful to the kind of political reality that people allegedly want to one-day see.

 

Of course this being nothing personal with you. You were just one of three posts all espousing the same rhetoric (and ironically all 3 of you misremembering and claiming to have been told totally different things - maybe none of you were actually told what you claim to have been!).

I would love to see a majority-Muslim government in the US uphold and support LGBTQ rights. That would be a huge milestone. I doubt we will see it happen anytime soon.

I’m not sure why you keep bringing up black people and prop 8. Being black is not a religion.

[Communion]

4 minutes ago, VOSS said:

I would love to see a majority-Muslim government

I thought the entire point of the fear-mongering wrt Muslim immigration was to amplify the negative effects of ghettoization and collectives as somehow problems inherent to those groups themselves?

 

That many Muslim Americans choose to live in sprawl, diverse communities and not in a community where any singular demographic is a majority feels like a wrench in the kind of rhetoric, no?

 

That the only singular Muslim-majority community in the US is one not forged through intention but an ethnic enclave that represents less than 1% of US Muslims. That if immigration is a project, the US project is largely successful when other countries only open their borders due to EU-mandated refugee allotment and then allow these groups to fall into the margins of society and form down-trotted ghettos.

 

Which only further highlights why such views like this:

10 minutes ago, VOSS said:

Being black is not a religion.

lead you to be easily swept up in reactionary rhetoric. Hamtramck is not just a majority-Muslim community - its Muslim community is largely from the same two ethnic groups. The town has a historic Yemeni and Bengali community that over 50 years have replaced Polish immigrants leaving for wealthier suburbs.

 

That nearly 50% of Hamtramck residents live in poverty should highlight to the city council that they have a bigger concern than queer people existing, but just like how reactionary claims that disparaged minority groups for the acts of Prop 8 did not in any way actually lead to progress for LGBT people, such personal animosities here won't produce progressive outcomes either, and only make the work harder for actual progressives.

 

I hope to see every person concerned by anti-LGBTQ Muslims within Michigan then donate to Rashdia Tlaib's re-election campaign.  

[VOSS]

5 minutes ago, Communion said:

I thought the entire point of the fear-mongering wrt Muslim immigration was to amplify the negative effects of ghettoization and collectives as somehow problems inherent to those groups themselves?

 

That many Muslim Americans choose to live in sprawl, diverse communities and not in a community where any singular demographic is a majority feels like a wrench in the kind of rhetoric, no?

 

That the only singular Muslim-majority community in the US is one not forged through intention but an ethnic enclave that represents less than 1% of US Muslims. That if immigration is a project, the US project is largely successful when other countries only open their borders due to EU-mandated refugee allotment and then allow these groups to fall into the margins of society and form down-trotted ghettos.

 

Which only further highlights why such views like this:

lead you to be easily swept up in reactionary rhetoric. Hamtramck is not just a majority-Muslim community - its Muslim community is largely from the same two ethnic groups. The town has a historic Yemeni and Bengali community that over 50 years have replaced Polish immigrants leaving for wealthier suburbs.

You made several good points here. Though I was not fear-mongering about immigration.

 

I don't really care if a Muslim person says they are not opposed to gay marriage. If they are a true believer, they are following a prophet who said that gay people should be stoned to death. I certainly don't live in an area representative of the country as a whole, but the liberal Muslims I know really are just religious in name only. They're not praying five times a day. Many don't believe in god. They generally don't give a **** about what the holy texts say so I need not worry.

 

5 minutes ago, Communion said:

That nearly 50% of Hamtramck residents live in poverty should highlight to the city council that they have a bigger concern than queer people existing, but just like how reactionary claims that disparaged minority groups for the acts of Prop 8 did not in any way actually lead to progress for LGBT people, such personal animosities here won't produce progressive outcomes either, and only make the work harder for actual progressives.

ATRL is a community that is majority young, liberal, secular, and LGBTQ. Hence why I feel comfortable sharing my views here without thinking about the political consequences of my speech. If I was to speak at a school board meeting, I would choose my words very differently.

 

5 minutes ago, Communion said:

I hope to see every person concerned by anti-LGBTQ Muslims within Michigan then donate to Rashdia Tlaib's re-election campaign.  

I only donate to local politicians, but I like Tlaib! She enthusiastically supports many haram activities, it's clear she doesn't take her religion too seriously.

[Superbitch]

Stupid religious nuts. Now if people discriminate them for their religion? 

[Genius1111]

 

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jun/17/hamtramck-michigan-muslim-council-lgbtq-pride-flags-banned

 

 

‘A sense of betrayal’: liberal dismay as Muslim-led US city bans Pride flags

Many liberals celebrated when Hamtramck, Michigan, elected a Muslim-majority council in 2015 but a vote to exclude LGBTQ+ flags from city property has soured relations

[Rep2000]

This is not even a separate, singular occurrence. Many have even sided with Nazi on queer topics, all over America, Canada and Europe.
When they show who they are the first time, believe them.

[bluceleste]

Conservative muslim trojan horses infiltrating left leaning political parties like the democrats. It’s all going in accordance with the master plan of a certain brotherhood…