celeb news Roger Waters dresses as Nazi officer in Berlin concert, police launches investigation

[Miracle Whip]

1 hour ago, Virgos Groove said:

Not peddling the State Department line on Ukraine is not "Putin support", and critiquing Israel for its crimes is not anti-semitic.

Edited May 27, 2023 by Miracle Whip

[Communion]

1 hour ago, Dill Green said:

I'm sorry, but it seems you're fixated on arguing against strawmen.

I'm sorry but this is unserious. Everyone can see the issues of your concerns have been already addressed plainly and clearly. You're literally utilizing the strawman that, if one agrees the art can be see as in bad taste, somehow they have to agree with all other criticisms, and that's patently false even according to German officials.

 

You've made two declarations:

 

"Waters' show glorifies white supremacy"

Many people are disagreeing because:

• The courts of Germany explicitly argued that, even though they can see people finding the form in which Waters criticizes nazism as being in bad taste, the show is undeniably, objectively a critique and thus is neither glorification nor inciting hatred towards Jewish people
• The city council who tried to ban Waters didn't even argue that the symbolism like the outfits and machine gun are antisemitic but that Waters' views on Israel and support for BDS "made him undeniably an antisemitie"

"Waters' show is in bad taste and lacks tact"

Many people who disagree with the previous claim have clearly said they think people have a right to feel the show's presentation is tactless or ineffective, but the issue still occurring is that:

• Again, agreeing something is ineffective or a poor critique of nazism is not then an evidence that it also somehow promotes or glorifies nazism.
• The vast majority of critics claiming Waters is glorifying nazism are themselves overtly right-wing and exploiting that one may find it tactless or play upon people's sensitivities to attack Waters' stances on issues like Israel, Palestine, war-profiteering and NATO's involvements in things like Libya.

You can try to dodge these realities by saying things like:

1 hour ago, Dill Green said:

and talking past one another

but doing so is still carrying water for far-right ultranationalists like those linked in the OP.

 

We're discussing things like Shireen Abu Akleh's death BECAUSE THE OP LITERALLY LINKED TO TWEETS saying that calling Shireen a victim of fascism "INSULTS THE MEMORY OF HOLOCAUST SURVIVORS"?

 

THESE ARE THE CRITICISM ACTUALLY BEING MADE THAT YOU'RE DEFENDING AS WITH MERIT:

 

What does BDS have to do with Nazi Germany and antisemitism?

Why are they lying about Shireen's death?

Shireen did not die due to "a fire fight between Israeli forces and Palestinian militants".

 

Independent forensic teams in both America and the British government confirmed that Shireen was DELIBERATELY KILLED BY THE IDF. 

 

HOW IS IT ANTISEMITIC TO RECOGNIZE ISRAEL MURDERED SHIREEN ABU AKLEH?

Edited May 27, 2023 by Communion

[Kakihara]

This been done since the wall movie, he's recreating it, I adore pink Floyd, even if Roger has gone off the rails with his politics this isn't the thing that I thought would cause a fuss because it's a known act from the wall. 

 

That being said it makes me less sad that he won't come to my country for the tour because his shows are way too heavy in politics. I wish David Gilmour toured  instead. 

[Dill Green]

11 minutes ago, Communion said:

I'm sorry but this is unserious. Everyone can see the issues of your concerns have been already addressed plainly and clearly. You're literally utilizing the strawman that, if one agrees the art can be see as in bad taste, somehow they have to agree with all other criticisms, and that's patently false even according to German officials.

 

You've made two declarations:

 

"Waters' show glorifies white supremacy"

Many people are disagreeing because:

• The courts of Germany explicitly argued that, even though they can see people finding the form in which Waters criticizes nazism as being in bad taste, the show is undeniably, objectively a critique and thus is neither glorification nor inciting hatred towards Jewish people
• The city council who tried to ban Waters didn't even argue that the symbolism like the outfits and machine gun are antisemitic but that Waters' views on Israel and support for BDS "maybe him undeniably an antisemitie"

"Waters' show is in bad taste and lacks tact"

Many people who disagree with the previous claim have clearly said they think people have a right to feel the show's presentation is tactless or ineffective, but the issue still occurring is that:

• Again, agreeing something is ineffective or a poor critique of nazism is not then an agreement that it somehow promotes or glorifies nazism.
• The vast majority of critics claiming Waters is glorifying nazism are themselves overtly right-wing and exploiting that one may find it tactless or play upon people's sensitivities to attack Waters' stances on issues like Israel, Palestine, war-profiteering and NATO's involvements in things like Libya.

You can try to dodge these realities by saying things like:

to avoid that you're carrying water for far-right ultranationalists like those linked in the OP.

 

We're discussing things like Shireen Abu Akleh's death BECAUSE THE OP LITERALLY LINKED TO TWEETS saying that calling Shireen a victim of fascism "INSULTS THE MEMORY OF HOLOCAUST SURVIVORS!".

 

THESE ARE THE CRITICISM ACTUALLY BEING MADE THAT YOU'RE DEFENDING AS WITH MERIT:

 

Shireen did not die due to "a fire fight between Israeli forces and Palestinian militants". Independent forensic teams in both America and the British government confirmed that Shireen was DELIBERATELY KILLED BY THE IDF. 

 

WHY IS IT ANTISEMITIC TO RECOGNIZE ISRAEL MURDERED SHIREEN ABU AKLEH?

You've erred in this conversation multiple times and you continue the straw man fallacy (misrepresenting an opponent's argument by broadening or narrowing the scope of a premise and/or refuting a weaker version of their argument) b/c you've totally misrepresented what I've been saying. 

 

You're now also falling into the logical fallacy of a number of ad hominem attacks (by suggesting those who disagree are right-wing or aligning w/ the right-wing:

-  Ad hominem – attacking the arguer instead of the argument

- Poisoning the well – a subtype of ad hominem presenting adverse information about a target person with the intention of discrediting everything that the target person says

- Appeal to motive – dismissing an idea by questioning the motives of its proposer 

 

Also, a court declaration does not discount valid societal criticisms and concerns about the contemporary efficacy of a Nazi re-enactment. Something being legal does not give credence to its efficacy/necessity/morality. 

 

I haven't argued/made any claims regarding the tweets, so again, you're arguing against a straw man. 

 

I've explained why I believe these actions semi-glorify white supremacist iconography. You can choose to disagree, but my argument still stands (and you've yet to actually knock it down). 

[Communion]

3 minutes ago, Dill Green said:

misrepresenting an opponent's argument by broadening or narrowing the scope

"YOU DISCUSSING THE LITERAL TWEETS LINKED IN THE OP ARE IGNORING THE ACTUAL SUBJECT AT HAND AND BROADENING THE TOPIC FROM WHAT IT ACTUALLY IS THAT I WOULD LIKE TO DISCUSS!!" 

 

Sis, you're not going to win this neither are you going to walk out of this convincing anyone reading.

 

Again, why are the tweets linked in the OP lying about the Israeli government killing Shireen Abu Akleh?

 

No one cares what you think is effective or ineffective pushback to nazism while you stay silent on this.

[Aren]

He crossed all the lines. There’s anti-Semitism and there’s anti-Zionism, what he did is plain anti-Semitism. I consider Israel an apartheid state, but trivializing the Holocaust by comparing Anne Frank to those other tragic incidents and putting a Star of David on a pig is NOT critiquing Israel.

 

 

[mathekr]

Internet really has rotten people's brains huh? Scary times for artists.

[Dill Green]

23 minutes ago, Communion said:

"YOU DISCUSSING THE LITERAL TWEETS LINKED IN THE OP ARE IGNORING THE ACTUAL SUBJECT AT HAND AND BROADENING THE TOPIC FROM WHAT IT ACTUALLY IS THAT I WOULD LIKE TO DISCUSS!!" 

 

Sis, you're not going to win this neither are you going to walk out of this convincing anyone reading.

 

Again, why are the tweets linked in the OP lying about the Israeli government killing Shireen Abu Akleh?

 

No one cares what you think is effective or ineffective pushback to nazism while you stay silent on this.

You initiated contact w/ me and engaged me and my argument (which did not make any claims about tweets) - I'm not obligated to agree/disagree with every part of the OPs post. So, from that standpoint - yes, you are misrepresenting my argument (and I'm glad that we both agree). And I'm glad that you've finally revealed that you aren't actually interested in sensible conversation/debate. And you continue to use ad hominem attacks.

 

And other fallacies: Fallacy of relative privation (also known as "appeal to worse problems" or "not as bad as") – dismissing an argument or complaint due to what are perceived to be more important problems

 

Lol, I think we're done here. 

[Communion]

37 minutes ago, Dill Green said:

You initiated contact w/ me and engaged me and my argument (which did not make any claims about tweets)

Yes, your argument that has contorted from "this is glorifying white supremacy" to "even if I can't prove it glorifies white supremacy, it is not an effective critique of nazism because has Roger Waters ended nazism by calling it out how he has chosen to???"

 

Not only is such a criticism as an attempt to silence Waters obscene, but the purposeful choice to not recognize who you're siding with only works to defend the claims in the OP as having merit, despite literally anyone with eyes can see those tweets are in bad faith.

 

"But if the show is criticizing nazism, how will the audience know it is a critique if the show is not clear??"

 

The show in question:

 

 

 

Maybe those who champion Israeli apartheid can find even more tweets from ultra-fascists calling Waters a "dictator lover" for *checks notes* not hating trans people and not supporting bombing countries.

 

Edited May 27, 2023 by Communion

[Dill Green]

3 minutes ago, Communion said:

Yes, your argument that has contorted from "this is glorifying white supremacy" to "even if I can't prove it glorifies white supremacy, it is not an effective critique of nazism because has Roger Waters ended nazism???"

 

Not only Is your criticism obscene, but your purposeful choice to not recognize who you're siding with by defending the claims in the OP as having merit, but literally anyone with eyes can see you're arguing in bad faith.

 

"But if the show is criticizing nazism, how will the audience know it is a critique if the show is not clear??"

 

The show in question:

 

 

 

Maybe you'll find more tweets from ultra-fascists calling Waters as "dictator lover" for *checks notes* not hating trans people and not supporting bombing countries.

 

Lol, you're really bad at this. But seriously, we're done. Let's just agree to disagree. 

[Communion]

Just now, Dill Green said:

Let's just agree to disagree. 

 

"This show glorifies and will embolden nazis, who we all know very famously supported trans people!"

[Domination]

7 hours ago, WalkAway said:

What kind of logic is that? I'm offended because the guy is awful (Putin supporter, antisemite, etc...) and is cosplaying a nazi on top of that. And people are saying it's just "Art" when we know his ****** up views. I'm confused about what side are you on.

The only reason to be offended by this performance is if you are a fascist.

[Abracadabra]

That is very weird

[Raiden]

On 5/26/2023 at 7:00 PM, Polgg48 said:

unhinged as always but it's an art

Nazi has always been a featured item in hardrock/ glam rock art and imagery. Where did you think they got the Gestapo style police uniforms and Nazi-German army helmets?

 

Some even put this stuff directly in their name.

 

 

Not sure whether any of these cases were ever banned or brought to court in modern Germany.

Edited May 27, 2023 by Raiden

[Mean Trees]

6 hours ago, Virgos Groove said:

Not peddling the State Department line on Ukraine is not "Putin support", and critiquing Israel for its crimes is not anti-semitic.

oop.

[Mr. Mendes]

It's not gonna go anywhere. He has been doing this act for literal decades, unchanged, and has performed it in Germany dozens and dozens and dozens of times, including famously at the site of the Berlin wall. 

[rihannafan]

On 5/27/2023 at 7:23 PM, Communion said:

Yes, your argument that has contorted from "this is glorifying white supremacy" to "even if I can't prove it glorifies white supremacy, it is not an effective critique of nazism because has Roger Waters ended nazism by calling it out how he has chosen to???"

 

Not only is such a criticism as an attempt to silence Waters obscene, but the purposeful choice to not recognize who you're siding with only works to defend the claims in the OP as having merit, despite literally anyone with eyes can see those tweets are in bad faith.

 

"But if the show is criticizing nazism, how will the audience know it is a critique if the show is not clear??"

 

The show in question:

 

 

 

Maybe those who champion Israeli apartheid can find even more tweets from ultra-fascists calling Waters a "dictator lover" for *checks notes* not hating trans people and not supporting bombing countries.

 

Damn end thread

Edited May 31, 2023 by rihannafan

[arceus]

this is why people dont stream Pink Floyd

[whitneyhoustonlegend]

On 5/27/2023 at 10:17 AM, Mystic Boy said:

Do you really expect the average ATRLer to be sensitive about Pink Floyd art and music?

Do you really think they even listened to that album and tried to get the concept?

ikr? im pink floyd fan since 80's and seeing some  replies here, really make me question some IQ's.... i dont even bother to explain... google is your friend... 

 

@Communion @Phaunzie Thank you for the educational insights . 

[ClashAndBurn]

On 5/27/2023 at 3:57 AM, Embustera said:

Most of y’all praise Charlie Hebdo . This is “satire” too.

Let’s be honest, they praise Charlie Hebdo because they’re anti-Islam.