celeb news Roger Waters dresses as Nazi officer in Berlin concert, police launches investigation

[Phaunzie]

Isn't it a satirical costume? Good God, literally it is a part of a play within his concert. He literally playing a character. 

 

The symbols are from the film, the Wall based on the Pink Floyd album.

Edited May 26, 2023 by Phaunzie

[Phaunzie]

3 hours ago, Johnny Jacobs said:

Users here defending him are just as trash as he is.

 

I swear sometimes i think half of atrl users are Jefree star wannabes. 

I am so sorry, that you couldn't do a basic google search and do your research, but alas, here we are. You can choose to ignorant to the context all you want, but it is there. Literally there are  numerous pieces of information presented in this thread, educate yourself.

 

This is satire people

 

[More Than A Melody]

16 minutes ago, Phaunzie said:

Isn't it a satirical costume? Good God, literally it is a part of a play within his concert. He literally playing a character. 

 

The symbols are from the film, the Wall based on the Pink Floyd album.

In the context of the things he's been saying, and considering the current political and sociological landscape (which is incredibly different than the one around the release of The Wall), people being upset is a given.

 

When The Wall came out, nazis were clearly the bad guys. Being called a nazi was one of the worst insults. Now neo nazis are proud about it and nazi ideology is becoming mainstream. Multiple fascist parties are arising all over the west and right wing ideology is at an all time high. I would say that he needs to reimagine his concerts and adapt to the current times, but given the fact that he's become a Russian spokesperson and Putin defender, I don't think he gives a damn.

[Communion]

1 hour ago, Dill Green said:

what is Roger's show actually doing (other than causing mild controversy)?

This is a bad faith question because it proposes that somehow Roger Waters - a musician - has some responsibility to *do* anything actionable with regards to fascism and war, and not politicians for whom he Is making art about.

 

It also ignores that the situation is not impersonal for Waters - he makes detailing the evils of Nazism a central piece of his art because his family were communists and his father literally was killed fighting nazis in WWII.

 

Again, if someone hates Waters because they personally feel fine erasing war crimes committed by NATO in places like Afghanistan and Libya, they should be able to say such. Double-speak is not an argument.

 

You first confidently posted this over and over:

6 hours ago, Dill Green said:

semi-glorification of white supremacist iconography. 

 

6 hours ago, Dill Green said:

it is also a semi-glorification of white supremacist iconography

And now you pivot, once unable to answer to how there's no honest way to legally *or* ethically describe Waters' art as glorification of fascism, arguing "but are his criticisms of fascism ACTUALLY ENDING FASCISM?". See? You admit you know and knew from the start it was never actually glorification. 

 

Artists speaking out about the evils of regimes like the US, Israel, Russia and others are doing more to push back on fascism than people, if that happens to include you, who reject such notions and hide behind bad faith accusations of antisemitism to defend apartheid states like Israel.

 

Am I meant to find Waters' call for Syria to be autonomous more offensive than the US bombing Syria? Am I meant to trust that people who supported turning Libya into a wasteland are experts when they parrot smears like calling Waters a "dictator apologist"? If these claims were true, then surely there has to be no actual objection for also similarly recognizing police states like the US, Israel and others as also fascist? What countries have actually bombed more nations and killed more people? 

 

Why is it antisemitic to refer to Israel as a fascist state? How is it pro-nazism to recognize those who were murdered by an ethno-state for their ethnicity as victims of fascism? If it's antisemitic to refer to victims of state-ordered killings by Israel as victims of fascism, then you must believe those people deserved to die, no?

 

Why did Shireen Abu Akleh deserve to be shot right through her forehead by an IDF soldier?

Why did Rachel Corrie deserve to have her limbs and body crushed into unrecognizable forms by a bulldozer when protesting the destruction of Palestinian homes for Israeli settlements? 

 

Surely your point of view is that these acts were indeed deserved if you are indeed co-signing that to recognize them as fascistic violence is "bigotry"?

 

Waters' concert also highlighted the deaths of:

• Adama Traoré, a black man murdered by French police in 2016
• Breonna Taylor, a black woman murdered by US police in 2020
• George Floyd, a black man murdered by US police in 2020
• Mawda Shawri, a Kurdish *2 year old* murdered by Belgian police in 2018
• Philando Castile, a black man murdered by US police in 2016
• Stanislav Tomáš, a Romani man murdered by Czech police in 2021

What exactly are people meant to take away from suggestions that victims of Western regimes and totalitarian police states either "deserved" their deaths or must be barred from recognizing themselves as victims of totalitarian violence? This isn't a conversation about antisemitism. This is natsec ghouls trying to smear a prominent anti-war voice who long has stood against illegal invasions of places like Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, and Syria.

 

If there are actual criticisms to have about the way Waters has poorly navigated Russia's illegal invasion of Ukraine (which I'm sure there are many valid criticisms to have of him!), then say that. Be honest in your conversations. Cause right now this is ultra-nationalist Israelis and ultra-nationalist Europeans exploiting Waters' mistakes on Ukraine to throw the baby out with the bathwater and any self-respecting progressive should be able to spot when ultra-nationalists are mass-coordinating apologia for Western imperial powers.

Edited May 27, 2023 by Communion

[Phaunzie]

44 minutes ago, More Than A Melody said:

In the context of the things he's been saying, and considering the current political and sociological landscape (which is incredibly different than the one around the release of The Wall), people being upset is a given.

 

When The Wall came out, nazis were clearly the bad guys. Being called a nazi was one of the worst insults. Now neo nazis are proud about it and nazi ideology is becoming mainstream. Multiple fascist parties are arising all over the west and right wing ideology is at an all time high. I would say that he needs to reimagine his concerts and adapt to the current times, but given the fact that he's become a Russian spokesperson and Putin defender, I don't think he gives a damn.

Hun, Azov exists. Literally with their Black Sun elbow tattoos and the Black Sun in their flag. As you have said, a lot of white nationalist's group are rising however majority of them still like to use nazi symbols to communicate with each other. Hell, there is a literal Nazi village in Germany and central Europe is known to be vacation destination for American and British Neo-Nazis. How  do I know, Tumblr has taught me that when an account is going  Europe for the weekend, they are going to either of these two locations

Spoiler

 

Spoiler

 

Satire is the best way to educate the dangers of the ideology and the branches of fascism. Hence why the German government after reviewing the show, give it a pass. Also so what if he is a Putin Defender, he is still anti-facsist and using his platform to go against fascist ideology like nazism, and white supremacy.

Edited May 27, 2023 by Phaunzie

[Communion]

27 minutes ago, More Than A Melody said:

When The Wall came out, nazis were clearly the bad guys. Being called a nazi was one of the worst insults. Now neo nazis are proud about it and nazi ideology is becoming mainstream. 

This is an ahistorical retelling of history to work backwards to a conclusion.

 

One name referenced in Waters' show is literally Blair Peach. He was a New Zealand socialist who was literally murdered by London police who were protecting the far-right National Front party from protestors in the UK in 1979 - just 7 months before The Wall would be released.

 

Nazis have *always* been mainstream. They have *always* been proud.

They have *always* been protected by strong and powerful forces.

 

The suggestion that Roger Waters is the one fueling that pulse now for *checks notes* disagreeing with many of the war crimes committed by NATO while getting other things wrong, and not the fascistic governments within Europe, the place that birthed Nazism as an ideology in itself, is obscene.

 

[More Than A Melody]

7 minutes ago, Phaunzie said:

Hun, Azov exists. Literally with their Black Sun elbow tattoos and the Black Sun in their flag. As you have said, a lot of white nationalist's group are rising however majority of them still like to use nazi symbols to communicate with each other. Hell, there is a literal Nazi village in Germany and central Europe is known to be vacation destination for American and British Neo-Nazis. How  do I know, Tumblr has taught me that when an account is going  Europe for the weekend, they are going to either of these two locations

  Reveal hidden contents

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Satire is the best way to educate the dangers of the ideology and the branches of fascism. Hence why the German government after reviewing the show, give it a pass. Also so what if he is a Putin Defender, he is still anti-facsist and using his platform to go against fascist ideology like nazism, and white supremacy.

How is satire the best way to educate people when people are too stupid to get satire and nazi symbolism and white supremacist ideology is at an all time high?

 

You're severely overestimating the intelligence of the average consumer.

 

At the end of the day, Roger Waters doesn't care and won't stop anyway

[Drowned8World]

he's a piece of sh*t. We know that in South America because he started supporting dictators in the region.

[Phaunzie]

11 minutes ago, More Than A Melody said:

How is satire the best way to educate people when people are too stupid to get satire and nazi symbolism and white supremacist ideology is at an all time high?

 

You're severely overestimating the intelligence of the average consumer.

 

At the end of the day, Roger Waters doesn't care and won't stop anyway

Satire is able to pass on the information in form that keep the attention of the viewer. In a world, where information needs to be fast and not be preachy, comedy is way better at making the information stick than just giving out facts. Especially in play format. Documentaries exist, but most of the average consumer is not going to watch because it is not entertainment to them. Satire be it a show, movie, or play like this get people to think. 

 

I think you are underestimating a bit, because satire is still loved by the masses, i.e Jojo Rabbit. Just because a few people may not get it, doesn't mean others don't. 

[More Than A Melody]

2 minutes ago, Phaunzie said:

Satire is able to pass on the information in form that keep the attention of the viewer. In a world, where information needs to be fast and not be preachy, comedy is way better at making the information stick than just giving out facts. Especially in play format. Documentaries exist, but most of the average consumer is not going to watch because it is not entertainment to them. Satire be it a show, movie, or play like this get people to think. 

 

I think you are underestimating a bit, because satire is still loved by the masses, i.e Jojo Rabbit. Just because a few people may not get it, doesn't mean others don't. 

I wouldn't classify Roger Waters as comedy. Satire isn't always comedy. I think that considering the current sociopolitical landscape, we should err on the side of caution.

[Phaunzie]

5 minutes ago, More Than A Melody said:

I wouldn't classify Roger Waters as comedy. Satire isn't always comedy. I think that considering the current sociopolitical landscape, we should err on the side of caution.

All satire is comedy

https://www.languagehumanities.org/what-is-the-difference-between-comedy-and-satire.htm

[More Than A Melody]

3 minutes ago, Phaunzie said:

All satire is comedy

https://www.languagehumanities.org/what-is-the-difference-between-comedy-and-satire.htm

[Phaunzie]

Just now, More Than A Melody said:

Where does it say that all satire is not comedy?

[More Than A Melody]

Just now, Phaunzie said:

Where does it say that all satire is not comedy?

In the use of the word "or." It can be humor or other things, such as irony, exaggeration, or ridicule, which are not inherently comedic.

[Phaunzie]

2 minutes ago, More Than A Melody said:

In the use of the word "or." It can be humor or other things, such as irony, exaggeration, or ridicule, which are not inherently comedic.

Satire is a subgenre of comedy, that is literally what it is. It is a literature device used for that very purpose and it is one of the branchs of comedy alongside irony. So all satire is comedy because comedy is the base of satire. Did you even read the article that I quoted? Anyone who has done a English Literature course could tell you that. 

[yonsé]

8 hours ago, BnPac said:

Isn't that the fantasy of the character in the album / movie? 

8 hours ago, cat1867 said:

He sucks but its based on his concept album The Wall where the singer after a mental breakdown fantasizes that he is a fascist dictator and his concert is a fascist rally.  He is performing the Wall at the concert.

white supremacist iconography is not "art," no matter how you try to spin it lol

[yonsé]

1 hour ago, Communion said:

Artists speaking out about the evils of regimes like the US, Israel, Russia and others are doing more to push back on fascism than people, if that happens to include you, who reject such notions and hide behind bad faith accusations of antisemitism to defend apartheid states like Israel.

hes wearing a nazi costume in germany. it's called reading the f*cking room. no one is going to champion him for dressing like a nazi. literally why would they?

[yonsé]

leave it to ATRL to find excuses for any kind of offensive behavior

[Communion]

6 minutes ago, yonsé said:

hes wearing a nazi costume in germany.

In a performance the German courts deemed "a scalding critique of nazism as an ideology". A show he's done in Germany dozens of times within the country without fanfare or controversy.

 

Again, you should read the room and be more self-aware that you're being conned and propagandized by right-wing ideologues who hate an anti-war figure. This is a hatchet job of a smear piece by ultra-nationalists and ethno-fascists. 

 

By all means, find that times change and feel that criticism can be refined to be more tactful, but you're quite literally parroting many claims and talking points of neo-nazis and the global far-right by suggesting Roger Waters is somehow a nazi because he's upset neo-cons by supporting Palestinian people.

Edited May 27, 2023 by Communion

[More Than A Melody]

7 minutes ago, Phaunzie said:

Satire is a subgenre of comedy, that is literally what it is. It is a literature device used for that very purpose and it is one of the branchs of comedy alongside irony. So all satire is comedy because comedy is the base of satire. Did you even read the article that I quoted? Anyone who has done a English Literature course could tell you that. 

I mean, no it's not. It can be and we can argue that most of the times it is, but it's not always comedic and it's not a branch of comedy. It's more of a venn diagram where they overlap. Roger Waters isn't doing comedy.

[yonsé]

1 minute ago, Communion said:

In a performance the German courts deemed "a scalding critique of nazism as an ideology". A show he's done in Germany dozens of times within the country.

 

Again, you should read the room and be more self-aware that you're being conned and propagandized by right-wing forces. This is a hatchet job of a smear piece by ultra-nationalists and ethno-fascists. 

 

By all means, find that times change and feel that criticism can be refined, but you're quite literally parroting the views and words of neo-nazis and global far-right by suggesting Roger Waters is somehow pro-nazi.

i think YOU should read the room and realize that the times have changed since he started performing this show decades ago. there are more and more people being radicalized by what they see public figures doing. a uhaul tried to breach the white house with a nazi flag in it literally this week. we are at an all time high for anti-semitism and white supremacist views. nothing exists in a vacuum. you can't pretend this show WONT be taken out of context, thats not how concerts work.

 

i don't think any jewish person would see this show and feel like it was an amazing critique of nazism, they'd probably be offended. and people are allowed to be offended by this. imagine policing people over their feelings of white supremacist iconography on a large stage like this???

[Phaunzie]

2 minutes ago, More Than A Melody said:

I mean, no it's not. It can be and we can argue that most of the times it is, but it's not always comedic and it's not a branch of comedy. It's more of a venn diagram where they overlap. Roger Waters isn't doing comedy.

oh ok, agree to disagree, hun

[yonsé]

1 hour ago, More Than A Melody said:

In the context of the things he's been saying, and considering the current political and sociological landscape (which is incredibly different than the one around the release of The Wall), people being upset is a given.

 

When The Wall came out, nazis were clearly the bad guys. Being called a nazi was one of the worst insults. Now neo nazis are proud about it and nazi ideology is becoming mainstream. Multiple fascist parties are arising all over the west and right wing ideology is at an all time high.

thank you. i don't know what people dont understand about this lol

[Communion]

21 minutes ago, yonsé said:

there are more and more people being radicalized by what they see public figures doing

Neo-nazis are not emboldened by Roger Waters condemning nazism and making comparisons to new authoritarian states and governments that keep this horrific ideology going (America, much of Europe).

 

 

To think so is to show one has grown up in such a right-wing society that there is no familiarity with socialist thought and no understanding about how drawing a line through fascism's past (Nazi Germany) to its current state and future would lead one to countries like America and much of modern Europe.

 

Again, no one is "policing" anyone. You have every right to find his criticism of nazism as lacking tact.

 

But such being true - that it could be more tactful - doesn't also stop the factual reality that the vast majority of criticism is not over Waters "glorifying" nazism, as there is no glorification.

 

The vast majority of criticism is coming from ultra-nationalist figures mad at him for condemning nazism but doing so by saying that states like the US and much of Europe - and, yes, even apartheid state Israel - are fascist states that continue to brutalize ethnic and racial minorities via the uprising of neo-fascist thought.

 

Ultranationalist Europeans don't believe Roger Waters likes nazis. They literally hate Roger Waters because Waters argues that most Western societies today have openly continued the horrific legacy of nazism. They literally hate him for saying without hesitation that the modern Western world is continuing the fascist legacy of nazism with their continued bombing campaigns on nations in the Global South.

Edited May 27, 2023 by Communion

[yonsé]

1 minute ago, Communion said:

Neo-nazis are not emboldened by Roger Waters condemning nazism and making comparisons to new authoritarian states and governments that keep this horrific ideology going (America, much of Europe).

 

 

To think so is to show one has grown up in such a right-wing society that there is no familiarity with socialist thought and no understanding about how drawing a line through fascism's past (Nazi Germany) to its current state and future would lead one to countries like America and much of modern Europe.

 

Again, no one is "policing" anyone. You have every right to find his criticism of nazism as lacking tact.

 

But such being true - that it could be more tactful - doesn't also stop the factual reality that the vast majority of criticism is not over Waters "glorifying" nazism, as there is no glorification.

 

The vast majority of criticism is coming from ultra-nationalist figures mad at him for condemning nazism but doing so by saying that states like the US and much of Europe - and, yes, even apartheid state Israel - are fascist states that continue to brutalize ethnic and racial minorities via the uprising of neo-fasicist thought.

 

Ultranationalist Europeans don't believe Roger Waters like nazis. They literally hate Roger Waters because Waters argues that most Western societies today have openly continued the horrors of nazism.

you are assuming that everyone sees that man in a nazi uniform and thinks its in good faith and he's educating because that's what the whole show does. and im here to tell you in 2023 when the internet and tiktok and viral clips are the norm, no one is taking that time to do that. concerts are recorded and consumed online in CLIP-form. thats how EVERYTHING is consumed online these days. so you must be very CLEAR with your intention, should it be taken out of context.

 

nuance is KEY here and this show has FAR too much to be taken out of context, and yet, the internet STILL did that. that's why he's being investigated to begin with.

 

intent ≠ impact. just because he means well doesn't mean its going to be taken that way. he is still a cisgendered straight white man wearing a nazi uniform on a public stage. that's BOUND to be taken out of context and people are allowed to be offended because hes doing it for entertainment. He's using traumatic and offensive imagery to make his point in favor of the people those images are traumatizing for to begin with. not sure how you don't see that. if i went to a rock show and saw this sh*t i would be freaked out regardless of the message, because the sight of the iconography is triggering.

 

white privilege has a LOT at play here. im glad that you can see this man and think oh its just a costume, but many people don't, and that's valid.