charts discussion Should BB Change Their Rules On Streaming Equivalent Albums?

[tde]

No. The chart is accurate. Just because your face is bombing they shouldn’t change the rules

[Pop Art]

13 minutes ago, tde said:

No. The chart is accurate. Just because your face is bombing they shouldn’t change the rules

Your hate towards Gaga blinding simple logic.  As people have already said, these types of changes would more than likely actually hurt pop artists, not help them. This has nothing to do with Gaga or any other artist, I simply made it to point out the inconsistencies between the language in their explanation of the new bundle rules and how they currently handle streaming for the Billboard 200. Please learn to take stan googles off once in a while and think, it's good for you.

[Pop Art]

24 minutes ago, professor2000 said:

Exactly. 

 

Also, I don't know if I necessarily agree with UK's rule. 

 

People back in the day bought physical albums to listen to those 2-3 popular songs most of the time.  So I'm not sure why those need to be down-weighted for streaming.  Most of the time those are singles, and most of the time singles are driving interest in the album. 

 

That's probably why BB never followed suit.  

This is where it definitely gets tricky. Even if someone only bought an album to listen to 2-3 singles, they still consumed the whole album for charting purposes. (Granted, back in the day it's more than likely because they had no choice what with labels purposely holding back/limiting singles for sale to boost album sales.) But with streaming, it's possible to track which songs each person listens to in any given period. So whereas in the past there was no way of telling if a person listened to the whole album or just a few songs, now there is. The problem is we have to find some way to convert streams to sales for a general sales + streams chart to work, and that's hard when each listening case is unique. Where do you draw the line? Honestly, I haven't even personally arrived at a conclusion for that. ?

[Namiskine]

2 hours ago, Brando said:

So does this mean the sale of an album shouldn't count if you bought a physical album and only ended up listening to 3 or 4 songs which you like most while ignoring the rest?

In that instance they bought the whole album, not the singles (cause they could have also bought only those). Whatever they do with it still is one pure sale represented by the intention of the person buying it. It's totally different than streaming a song, sometimes even unwillingly just because it's on a playlist such as Today's Top Hits, and making it count towards the whole album, and that same only smash single often accounting for more than 50% of the total SEA of the album.

Edited July 19, 2020 by Namiskine

[professor2000]

3 minutes ago, Pop Art said:

This is where it definitely gets tricky. Even if someone only bought an album to listen to 2-3 singles, they still consumed the whole album for charting purposes. (Granted, back in the day it's more than likely because they had no choice what with labels purposely holding back/limiting singles for sale to boost album sales.) But with streaming, it's possible to track which songs each person listens to in any given period. So whereas in the past there was no way of telling if a person listened to the whole album or just a few songs, now there is. The problem is we have to find some way to convert streams to sales for a general sales + streams chart to work, and that's hard when each listening case is unique. Where do you draw the line? Honestly, I haven't even personally arrived at a conclusion for that. ?

Good + fair point! 

 

I don't think there's an apples-to-apples solution, because the way the formats are consumed is just so different.  People can probably nitpick at any rule BB comes up with, because of that reason alone.    

 

For example, with UK's rule...down weighting the popular songs is not 100% perfect.  Because some people might've listened to the FULL album once, yet returned to listen to the singles over and over again.  Often times the singles ARE the best songs on an album too.  So to just blanket down weight the popular songs seems inaccurate too.  

 

I mean they could also factor in lean-forward vs. lean-back listening, which is available to labels, management via Apple + Spotify.  Like, maybe weighting lean-forward listens of non-single tracks more???  

[SignificantOther]

One hit single alone will not make you rise on the charts. To sustain a good album run you need people to stream most of the tracks on your album. Just look at Lil Baby's album, he doesn't have one single top 10 on it and yet it's doing amazing on the album charts because people are actually streaming his songs. 

Edited July 19, 2020 by SignificantOther

[fridayteenage]

2 hours ago, Brando said:

I'm not sure you got what I was trying to say. Have you never bought an album and then only ended up liking a few tracks and never wanted to hear the rest?

No, I have never done this. Your words were crystal clear, so were mine.

[Brando]

15 minutes ago, Namiskine said:

In that instance they bought the whole album, not the singles (cause they could have also bought only those). Whatever they do with it still is one pure sale represented by the intention of the person buying it. It's totally different than streaming a song, sometimes even unwillingly just because it's on a playlist such as Today's Top Hits, and making it count towards the whole album, and that same only smash single often accounting for more than 50% of the total SEA of the album.

But the OP is asking about music consumption, not just a blank sale. And what I'm saying is consumption is hard to measure. 

 

[By the Water]

The UK charts are the most inaccurate in the world. The albums chart was ruined by all these stupid rules

[brenda-walsh]

17 minutes ago, SignificantOther said:

One hit single alone will not make you rise on the charts. To sustain a good album run you need people to stream most of the tracks on your album. Just look at Lil Baby's album, he doesn't have one single top 10 on it and yet it's doing amazing on the album charts because people are actually streaming his songs. 

This.

 

People talk about double counting and whatnot, but it's not as if one song is going to even sustain your album in the top 10, and especially not for an extended period of time. Also, if someone is listening to a song off of an album, they're still technically listening to the album. So why should they be punished because people love a particular song?

[badgirlriri]

6 hours ago, Namiskine said:

In that instance they bought the whole album, not the singles (cause they could have also bought only those). Whatever they do with it still is one pure sale represented by the intention of the person buying it. It's totally different than streaming a song, sometimes even unwillingly just because it's on a playlist such as Today's Top Hits, and making it count towards the whole album, and that same only smash single often accounting for more than 50% of the total SEA of the album.

Album consumption is a lot lower than you're giving credit for then, just because people can now stream music instead of buying a copy of it. I can garuntee you a chart of whatever album has the most pure sales n a given week is vastly inaccurate to what albums actually have interest to the public. Also the smash single thing isn't really a big deal. If the album is really benefiting off literally one single like y'all are suggesting, the max it's going to do is Platinum if the song manages to reach Diamond.  If it's doing any more than that it'd be off the back of streams for the other tracks. 

[Pop Art]

7 hours ago, professor2000 said:

Good + fair point! 

 

I don't think there's an apples-to-apples solution, because the way the formats are consumed is just so different.  People can probably nitpick at any rule BB comes up with, because of that reason alone.    

 

For example, with UK's rule...down weighting the popular songs is not 100% perfect.  Because some people might've listened to the FULL album once, yet returned to listen to the singles over and over again.  Often times the singles ARE the best songs on an album too.  So to just blanket down weight the popular songs seems inaccurate too.  

 

I mean they could also factor in lean-forward vs. lean-back listening, which is available to labels, management via Apple + Spotify.  Like, maybe weighting lean-forward listens of non-single tracks more???  

Wait what is this?  I've never heard of these terms before.

[professor2000]

Just now, Pop Art said:

Wait what is this?  I've never heard of these terms before.

Lol!  It's a metric that labels/artist/managers have access to, Spotify reports it....I'm pretty sure Apple Music does too.   

• Lean-forward listening -- when a listener actively clicks on a track to play it
• Lean-back listening -- when a song plays without user action (i.e., songs coming up on playlist or artist radio / autoplay, etc.)

 

[Pop Art]

8 minutes ago, professor2000 said:

Lol!  It's a metric that labels/artist/managers have access to, Spotify reports it....I'm pretty sure Apple Music does too.   

• Lean-forward listening -- when a listener actively clicks on a track to play it
• Lean-back listening -- when a song plays without user action (i.e., songs coming up on playlist or artist radio / autoplay, etc.)

Interesting...that could indeed be a way to alter the BB200 a bit. I can also see them implementing it given their seemingly increasing desire to reflect consumer intent.

[brianc33710]

Remove YT/VEVO streams, leave ODS as is. 

[Rico Shameless v2]

22 hours ago, SignificantOther said:

One hit single alone will not make you rise on the charts. To sustain a good album run you need people to stream most of the tracks on your album. Just look at Lil Baby's album, he doesn't have one single top 10 on it and yet it's doing amazing on the album charts because people are actually streaming his songs. 

Exactly. Even though people try to have this conversation with their blinders off, it’s still highly motivated by the fact that the T10 is “all males” while the female faves are descending weekly.

 

Pop albums are ironically the ones that typically perform based off of one hit single, while criticism is thrown at DaBaby, Lil Baby, Drake, etc. who have their entire projects consumed - regularly. Even in instances with 20+ songs and the argument that’s an automatic boost for the record, it’s still a large handful of album tracks getting regular pay. Some ultimately becoming part of their most streamed songs.

 

I don’t like the UK chart rule. Chromatica for example is being carried solely by Rain On Me in the US. If we adapted to down weight every song to the exact same stream number (which is literally inaccurate and changing the real numbers to fit the criteria), the album would practically be off the BB200. Because nobody is streaming 911, Sine, etc. every week.

 

So yeah this argument seems mostly motivated by what people want to see, over what it should be.

 

As for streams coming from multiple sources, why not? If somebody listens to the song/video on the artist YT channel, and it’s licensed/categorized under the album what’s the problem? I mean the main point of having equivalents was to balance the sharply declining album sales and now there are debates over them being too powerful. It’s odd.

[sadnews]

yep. Billboard should add UK rule and stop double counting on both single/album chart.

60% of album sps driven by 1 single's stream is not album consumption but single consumption.

 

[DreamGlow]

The only thing i want is the entries limit.

Billboard should do that to avoid these album bombs, that effect for only 1 week.

[stevyy]

On 7/19/2020 at 7:47 PM, professor2000 said:

Good + fair point! 

 

I don't think there's an apples-to-apples solution, because the way the formats are consumed is just so different.  People can probably nitpick at any rule BB comes up with, because of that reason alone.    

 

For example, with UK's rule...down weighting the popular songs is not 100% perfect.  Because some people might've listened to the FULL album once, yet returned to listen to the singles over and over again.  Often times the singles ARE the best songs on an album too.  So to just blanket down weight the popular songs seems inaccurate too.  

 

I mean they could also factor in lean-forward vs. lean-back listening, which is available to labels, management via Apple + Spotify.  Like, maybe weighting lean-forward listens of non-single tracks more???  

BUT... if an album only has 2-3 good songs on it... then it's not a popular album.... and should not chart for a long time... 

 

those 2-3 songs could be hits and chart as such... but an album is an artistic vision... and ever since the advent of the digital and now streaming age... the album artform was perverted and completely stopped to exist as such.

 

My solution... ONLY the LEAST played track on an album determines how much it was streamed in its entirety. 

 

So if you have an albums like this:
 

Track 1 - 657 million streams

Track 2 - 6 million

Track 3 - 425 million

Track 4 - 67 million

Track 5 - 1,6 billion

Track 6 - 12 million

Track 7 - 8 million

Track 8 - 400k (interlude)

Track 9 - 153 million

Track 10 - 44 million

Track 11 - 19 million

Track 12 - 28 million

 

Then the album in its entirety was consumed 400,000 6 million times.

 

6,000,000 : 1000 = 60,000 streaming generated sales

[Repelex]

Hmm no. In the soundscan era people would buy whole albums just to hear 1 or two hits they were interested in. Just look up Bodyguard and Titanic soundtracks. In the streaming era, even if you only listen to one song, you're still consuming something off that album.

[professor2000]

1 hour ago, stevyy said:

BUT... if an album only has 2-3 good songs on it... then it's not a popular album.... and should not chart for a long time... 

 

those 2-3 songs could be hits and chart as such... but an album is an artistic vision... and ever since the advent of the digital and now streaming age... the album artform was perverted and completely stopped to exist as such.

 

My solution... ONLY the LEAST played track on an album determines how much it was streamed in its entirety. 

 

So if you have an albums like this:
 

Track 1 - 657 million streams

Track 2 - 6 million

Track 3 - 425 million

Track 4 - 67 million

Track 5 - 1,6 billion

Track 6 - 12 million

Track 7 - 8 million

Track 8 - 400k (interlude)

Track 9 - 153 million

Track 10 - 44 million

Track 11 - 19 million

Track 12 - 28 million

 

Then the album in its entirety was consumed 400,000 6 million times.

 

6,000,000 : 1000 = 60,000 streaming generated sales

Hmmmm.  That’s interesting actually.  I don’t know if you can base it on just one track though.  
 

For example, track list order impacts stream #s.  The first album track over-indexes in streams vs the last track (minus singles + outliers).  So those last few album tracks will always get the short end of the stick.     Or what if a track is least played because of how long it is?  Or if that song has a high skip rate because of where it’s placed in a playlist or on the album (ie, next to the popular song — meaning it’s being ignored, but not because of its quality)?  
 

Just feel like there might be some factors that could easily skew sales, if it’s just based on one track alone.  Maybe it would work as a weighted average across the album, but least played tracks could be weighted more??

 

 

[OrgVisual]

Definitely. It's such a fraud having an album up high in the chart just by having a smash single. 

[stevyy]

2 hours ago, Repelex said:

Hmm no. In the soundscan era people would buy whole albums just to hear 1 or two hits they were interested in. Just look up Bodyguard and Titanic soundtracks. In the streaming era, even if you only listen to one song, you're still consuming something off that album.

but u bought all of the songs regardless of how much you play them.

 

The BB Charts used to be a sales chart and sales were reflected...

 

nowadays... the benefit of streaming is to make it a popularity chart... and an album is still a collection of songs, of all its songs.

 

So, as a collection of songs, only the least streamed song can determine how much an album was streamed in its entirety. 

 

It's a myth that people 30 years ago only bought an album to listen to 1 single off of it... nobody can prove such a thesis. 

 

I for one bought around 1,100 music CDs between 1994-2020. And I would always listen to the whole album as much as I would repeat my favourite song off an album. 

 

Even today... why is it that a sale of a CD is still only counted as 1? I mean... My Most Played album according to my LastFM was Brandon Flowers' The Desired Effect (2015) which has 7,500 scrobbles ( plays) and I own 4 copies of the CD... It's quite something how the sales community is punished for buying.

[Body Talk]

On 7/19/2020 at 8:10 AM, Almighty Gaga said:

Yes. The UK has the perfect rule for this. They should adapt it, and while they're at it they should also adapt their recurrent rules and their 3 songs per artist limit rule.

What's the 3 song per artist rule