South Korea is on the brink of collapse. What went wrong?

[Space Cowboy]

2 minutes ago, Illyboy said:

Men as whole? No? It's the elites who do it to keep the general populace oppressed and under control. Men have been brainwashed into it by the elites/Patriarchy. A random slave worker in Thebes or an indentured servant at a Spanish Hacienda would have not have the time to bother creating such rules, rather they just followed them because it's what they were taught would be beat for them, or else.

 

Because they are thinking with their dick rather than with their head. If they were a schoolboy manipulated into sex by a teacher (power imbalance) they might feel "good" at the start because for a male teen getting laid is the most rad thjng ever but as soon as they grow older and mature they realized whag was done to them and the scars would start to shoe. People who write those comments lack the empathy to understand that and are part of the problem.

My country has been ruled by a leftist so-called feminist government since 2019, I have yet to see them change the domestic abuse laws to account for men and same-sex couples. Perpetuated only by men??? Are you sure about that? Maybe just maybe some of these feminist women see that the patriarchy treats them as more valuable (can procreate) and vulnerable and want to have it all by having the perks of feminism while clinging on to the little "privileges" patriarchy gave them? (though fortunatel they're less and less nowadays as women also go to war and can do whatever job they want even if it's a "man's job" like mechanics or science)

Girl I've voted for Pedro Sánchez three times already, don't try to lecture me on how things work on Spain 

 

Blaming "the elites" or "patriarchy" as if they are some separate, abstract entity ignores the fact that these systems are upheld by individuals, yes, largely men, who perpetuate harmful norms, often without questioning them.
 

While power imbalances exist, shifting the blame to an amorphous ruling class conveniently absolves everyone else of accountability.

 

Men who mock male victims or equate abuse to "thinking with their dick" aren't brainwashed, they're choosing ignorance and cruelty.
 

And I prefer a government that takes gender-based abuse and feminism seriously in its programs, rather than one that completely ignores it. While no government is perfect, prioritizing these issues is important for building a fair and equal society. Ignoring them only allows inequality and harm to continue.

[Illyboy]

1 hour ago, Europe said:

It's not just men. Women are becoming far more radicalized too.

https://old.reddit.com/r/4bmovement/comments/1h2rjmu/who_needs_marriage_more/

https://old.reddit.com/r/4bmovement/comments/1h26079/the_y_chromosone_is_vanishing/

Just 2 examples. The comments are shockingly toxic & hateful.

 

We are lucky we are gay tbh

Didn't read all commenfs but only in the second posts they seem "toxic and hateful" yet the comments I would call that mostly seem to be jokes (I make jokes just as cancellable with my friend sometimes LOL)

 

I was going to write something about "both extremes feeding each other" but after skimming over both and realizing they're not as vile as they seemed to be...  

In the first post's comments they just (rightfully) complain about males who aren't mature enough to take care of themselves and wants their wife to be their mother (tbf it's not like patriarchy taught men they should take care of themselves but c'mon, if you have lived alone you would know at least the basic stuff why would you drop it after putting a ring on it stop being lazy)

In the second one I mostly saw mother nature/chromosome jokes and meh. Also not like the chromosome matters that much, I once read that it just means that H chromosome will get replaced by sth else to define the biological sex, and we're talking of sth that'll take millenia to evolve; as if we'd exist as an species by then IJBOL

[Antisocialites]

1 hour ago, Illyboy said:

What about men who get sexually assaulted and don't want to report it because they think the police won't believe them or that their peers will ridicule them? What about the domestic abuse from women to men and men to menfhat doesn't get talked about ever (at least in my country "domestic violence" is a FASCIST!!!!  concept only used by the far-right and "gendered violence" aka violence against women is the only one official statistics account for even though many studies have proven that abuse in a relationship goes both ways... but the feminists in Spain have interiorized the "women are weak and must be protected and men are violent beats" rhetoric fed to them by Patriarchy and that shows in our police/law system).

as you say, men are the ones who also discriminate against other men when they are "weak" which is basically linked to women in the fact that largely men hate to see other men in the same position as women (weak, crying, etc)

 

1 hour ago, Illyboy said:

Why do rescue services prioritize women and children?

because they are, factually, the ones in most need of care.

 

1 hour ago, Illyboy said:

Why do men do all the high-demanding and dangerous labour work like garbage treatment, construction, etc even though feminism has been preaching for decades that women are just as capable?

because most people who give employment in these jobs are men and since they are the "strongest" gender, they prefer men to do their work. capitalism.

 

1 hour ago, Illyboy said:

Why is do employers preffer to hire female teachers to male teachers when dealing with young children (are men more inclined to be paedophiles than women?) even though feminism has been prwaching for decades that men should also be caregivers?? 

because women are seen as the ones that need to care about children in any situation, whether at home or at school.

 

1 hour ago, Illyboy said:

It's almost as in theory feminism is perfect but in practice feminists have only wanted to apply the parts that benefit them, leaving men behind (failing to convince them to join and not showing sympathy for them like in your post, mysandry does exists as a form of systemic discrimination that I described lightly above. Just the same mysoginy isn't "men hate women so they rape and kill them!!" but rather a form of systemic oppression and the "rape and kill"are manifestations of it, just the same way "men must man up and never be vulnarable, be able to withhold everything that comes" are also manifestations of it. Western society has liberated women from Patriarchy but to a great degree they still put the same patriarchal expectations on men (you will never be a victim because you are meant to be brave a strong, if you don't succeed you're a loser because someone else will do it better and take home the win). Equality means equality for everyone, not just white western women.

tell me actual, real aspects of feminism that feminists reject because it benefits them. like actual, please.

Edited 18 hours ago by Antisocialites

[roso]

11 minutes ago, Illyboy said:

Men have been brainwashed into it by the elites/Patriarchy. A random slave worker in Thebes or an indentured servant at a Spanish Hacienda would have not have the time to bother creating such rules, rather they just followed them because it's what they were taught would be beat for them, or else.

Looks like you're excusing misogyny because 'well men don't have a say they have dicks' and blaming feminism because 'it's not talking about men facing domestic abuse' (mind you, it is)

[Illyboy]

1 minute ago, Space Cowboy said:

 

Blaming "the elites" or "patriarchy" as if they are some separate, abstract entity ignores the fact that these systems are upheld by individuals, yes, largely men, who perpetuate harmful norms, often without questioning them.
 

While power imbalances exist, shifting the blame to an amorphous ruling class conveniently absolves everyone else of accountability.

 

Men who mock male victims or equate abuse to "thinking with their dick" aren't brainwashed, they're choosing ignorance and cruelty.

Okay you've got a point there. I should know better than that.

3 minutes ago, Space Cowboy said:

And I prefer a government that takes gender-based abuse and feminism seriously in its programs, rather than one that completely ignores it. While no government is perfect, prioritizing these issues is important for building a fair and equal society. Ignoring them only allows inequality and harm to continue.

I see what you mean now. Though I still think they could do better but yeah the alternative is no programs like those at all so I guess I get it now.

 

Off topic:

Spoiler

4 minutes ago, Space Cowboy said:

Girl I've voted for Pedro Sánchez three times already, don't try to lecture me on how things work on Spain 

Personally I wouldn't vote for a sellout that would cuck anything and everything to stay in power but if they stop becoming a cult of personality and actually embrace policies instead of ✨ The Man  ✨ I'd gladly vote for them because I do agree with their politics more than PP's but a man who keeps lying ("There will be no pardon to the Procès convicts" "There will be no amnesty") I just can't take that man's word seriously, whatever he says means nothing to me anymore. If they get a profile like García-Page who puts up against the blackmail of certain parties and other bs then I'll stan them but until that day comes... Idk tbh

 

[Sawk]

This thread is giving me an aneurysm 

 

Women's liberation movements were a net positive for all societies, anyone with a brain can agree with that. 

That being said, when you look into the minds of how some very misogynistic men think, you'd know they literally otherize women to such a degree that lowers them into a subhuman category. That is some REALLY problematic ****, aka, the stuff that Andrew Tate stans, the MAGA cultists, etc… consume.

 

I believe this has stemmed PARTIALLY (there ARE other reasons, but here's one) from SOME RadFems who are VERY vocal about their theories and ways to implement their desires. The presence these radfems have in social media circles HAS lead to a large chunk of men that reject ANY Feminist rhetoric because they lump it in with RADFEM bullsh*t. This is NOT a correct action, and I do not support this, but GAYTRL has to understand that a lot of straight men, specially younger ones, are buying into the right wing sh*t they see on Twitter, YouTube, etc…

 

Also, hate hate HATE to say this, but the cis straights are sick and tired of Trans and Queer issues. While most people at the time Obergefell got passed were in favor of gay marriage, Trans issues were largely a niche that was rarely ever talked about outside of Queer circles. Once transitioning became more visible and detransition horror stories, as well as sport convos and bathroom debates started popping off, everything went to ****. We failed our fellow transgender humans, gay men, we lowkey failed them, we let straight people run the narrative around LGBTQ+ rhetoric and now it's gonna f*ck ALL of us up. 

 

I personally can't comment on SK's specific situation and this comment might be off topic, but I saw people talking about the ideological "Gender War" going on at the moment and how that ties to the 4B movement, so I thought I'd give some input. I agree with the 4B movement and hope more countries, specially religious cultist countries, have a growing 4B movement to fight against misogyny. 

Yap session conclusion:

 

It seems foolish to place the blame on any single group of people unironically; I love me some "men are trash" moments when a guy is being cringey, but to lump every single dude or treat men in general like they're innately violent and abhorrent is not gonna do anyone any favors; same goes for the misogynists who assume every Feminist is some crazy RadFem anarchist. 

[Illyboy]

3 minutes ago, Antisocialites said:

as you say, men are the ones who also discriminate against other men when they are "weak" which is only linked with women in the fact that largely men hate to see other men in the same position as women (weak, crying, etc)

 

because they are, and factually, the ones in most need of care.

 

because most people who give employment in these jobs are men and since they are the "strongest" gender, they prefer men to do their work. capitalism.

 

because women are seen as the ones that need to care about children in any situation, whether at home or at school.

Okay you spilled there, I take it back. It all ends up going back to patriarchy indeed.

[Communion]

3 minutes ago, Sawk said:

Also, hate hate HATE to say this, but the cis straights are sick and tired of Trans and Queer issues. While most people at the time Obergefell got passed were in favor of gay marriage, Trans issues were largely a niche that was rarely ever talked about outside of Queer circles. Once transitioning became more visible and detransition horror stories, as well as sport convos and bathroom debates started popping off, everything went to ****.

That literally none of this applies to South Korea - where gay marriage is not even legal and thus inherently proves the theory wrong - is making me scream fnjdjdjdjdnd

[Illyboy]

11 minutes ago, Sawk said:

Women's liberation movements were a net positive for all societies, anyone with a brain can agree with that. 

That being said, when you look into the minds of how some very misogynistic men think, you'd know they literally otherize women to such a degree that lowers them into a subhuman category. That is some REALLY problematic ****, aka, the stuff that Andrew Tate stans, the MAGA cultists, etc… consume.

 

I believe this has stemmed PARTIALLY (there ARE other reasons, but here's one) from SOME RadFems who are VERY vocal about their theories and ways to implement their desires. The presence these radfems have in social media circles HAS lead to a large chunk of men that reject ANY Feminist rhetoric because they lump it in with RADFEM bullsh*t. This is NOT a correct action, and I do not support this, but GAYTRL has to understand that a lot of straight men, specially younger ones, are buying into the right wing sh*t they see on Twitter, YouTube, etc…

Yap session conclusion:

 

It seems foolish to place the blame on any single group of people unironically; I love me some "men are trash" moments when a guy is being cringey, but to lump every single dude or treat men in general like they're innately violent and abhorrent is not gonna do anyone any favors; same goes for the misogynists who assume every Feminist is some crazy RadFem anarchist. 

This is what I thought I wrote but turns out I didn't, hats off 

 

I don't know why I always fail so hard at organizing my thoughts and end up saying/writing the wrong stuff/derailing to the wrong stuff.

Reading this felt like you read my mind. I'll stop posting stuff about it because I cannot word it better than you did there.

Edited 18 hours ago by Illyboy

[Sawk]

1 minute ago, Communion said:

That literally none of this applies to South Korea - where gay marriage is not even legal and thus inherently proves the theory wrong - is making me scream fnjdjdjdjdnd

I know, I said I went slightly off topic, I was commentating on the general discussion being had on gender wars, and, although the section you quoted is specific to an American narrative on these issues, the trends have shown that there is a movement towards the right politically that has been infecting the whole globe. 

[Space Cowboy]

12 minutes ago, Illyboy said:

 

  Hide contents

 

Personally I wouldn't vote for a sellout that would cuck anything and everything to stay in power but if they stop becoming a cult of personality and actually embrace policies instead of ✨ The Man  ✨ I'd gladly vote for them because I do agree with their politics more than PP's but a man who keeps lying ("There will be no pardon to the Procès convicts" "There will be no amnesty") I just can't take that man's word seriously, whatever he says means nothing to me anymore. If they get a profile like García-Page who puts up against the blackmail of certain parties and other bs then I'll stan them but until that day comes... Idk tbh

 

 

Spoiler

I do dislike that moron, but I'm one of those who believe the alternative (PP + Vox) would be way worse. Normally, I wouldn't care much about PSOE or PP, but having a far-right party in government would roll back many social rights and give fascists a platform.

 

I honestly don't care about the Procés issue. It was time to move on and heal, and honestly, that was the only way to achieve it.

 

Edited 18 hours ago by Space Cowboy

[Illyboy]

32 minutes ago, Sawk said:

a lot of straight men, specially younger ones, are buying into the right wing sh*t they see on Twitter, YouTube, etc…

not straight but the replies I've gotten to my posts have made me realized I may have interiorized some of that right wing rethoric I criticize. Whoopsie... I should work on that (though always watching news on Spain's equivalent of Fox bc the public broadcaster is "Pravda" according to my dad doesn't help tbh, but maybe I can just learn to be critically thinking and discern better, I have no excuse tbh)

Edited 18 hours ago by Illyboy
typo

[Communion]

Just now, Sawk said:

I know, I said I went slightly off topic, I was commentating on the general discussion being had on gender wars, and, although the section you quoted is specific to an American narrative on these issues, the trends have shown that there is a movement towards the right politically that has been infecting the whole globe. 

I get what you're saying, but I think the point is that these issues in South Korea kind of infamously prove the over-exposure theory as wrong. 

 

Because even in a largely conservative yet developed society where queer people are largely invisible and LGBTQ people themselves have made far fewer advancements in rights, men....still hate women and cis women still suffer! 

 

As someone who was deeply into kpop for years, I can't think of a well-known trans figure in SK. There's not even well-known gay figures in their entertainment culture.

 

People speak of a time in America where LGBTQ exposure was more "moderate" or tamed and claim such was just the right mixture of exposure, to claim somehow things have gone too far in the US and queer people cause our own backlash and yet....South Korea is basically in a similar same place as early 2000s conservative America and they're still experiencing this rightward backlash. 

 

Maybe hyper-capitalist societies with dwindling levels of equality just produce dangerous levels of alienation and atomization that fuels bigotry and reactionary movements!

[Illyboy]

14 minutes ago, Space Cowboy said:

 

  Hide contents

I do dislike that moron, but I'm one of those who believe the alternative (PP + Vox) would be way worse. Normally, I wouldn't care much about PSOE or PP, but having a far-right party in government would roll back many social rights and give fascists a platform.

 

I honestly don't care about the Procés issue. It was time to move on and heal, and honestly, that was the only way to achieve it.

 

Spoiler

I agree on that, I would only support PP if they had a majority government bc I know they wouldn't roll back any rights (or barely?) (although they would advance for more right either most likely). I certainly do not want Vox near any position of power over me or anyone else in this country.

 

I think the Procés thing is unfair because not only people who wrongly used public funds (paid by all taxpayers) get to just go free whereas someone who steals something at a supermarket to get a living doesn't get the same treatment ("justice is equal for everyone" guess not if you're from a party that is crucial to national politics/parliament stuff. If Junts/Esquerra didn't have the seats they have I'm sure amnesty wouldn't have been a thing)

And Catalonia getting certain benefits just because they have the government on a chokehold while the south keeps having the systemic issues (though the regional governments don't help to fix them) just feels wrong/unfair to me as well. Especially as a Canarian (I know damn well we were just a colony for centuries (and thus mistreated with rampant poverty, hunger and all other problems attribued to a colonial management) whereas Catalonia was literally the richest most advanced region yet THEY're the ones demanding reparations for "being oppressed by the Spanish State"??? Don't make me laugh)

 

Edited 18 hours ago by Illyboy

[Sawk]

18 minutes ago, Communion said:

I get what you're saying, but I think the point is that these issues in South Korea kind of infamously prove the over-exposure theory as wrong. 

 

Because even in a largely conservative yet developed society where queer people are largely invisible and LGBTQ people themselves have made far fewer advancements in rights, men....still hate women and cis women still suffer! 

 

As someone who was deeply into kpop for years, I can't think of a well-known trans figure in SK. There's not even well-known gay figures in their entertainment culture.

 

People speak of a time in America where LGBTQ exposure was more "moderate" or tamed and claim such was just the right mixture of exposure, to claim somehow things have gone too far in the US and queer people cause our own backlash and yet....South Korea is basically in a similar same place as early 2000s conservative America and they're still experiencing this rightward backlash. 

 

Maybe hyper-capitalist societies with dwindling levels of equality just produce dangerous levels of alienation and atomization that fuels bigotry and reactionary movements!

I'm not going to claim that section I posted about Queer issues applies to the South Korean environment, that was the most tangential point in my post, but I do stand by my commentary about men acting reactionary towards women's issues. I included the transgender point to relate it more to an issue that is a plague in American culture at the moment, but I agree that for North Korean society, their exposure to queer issues is practically a non factor.

 

What IS seemingly shared on a global scale is young men becoming increasingly misogynistic and that is due (partially, I accentuate this because it doesn't take all the blame) to radfem garbage seeping into regular feminist discourse which gives bad actors like Tate, Trump, and others more fuel; they are reactionary in nature. 
 

Also, I'm not saying Queer exposure has to be more "moderate", or that it was better in the early 2000s, but sometimes we have to concede some points in order to keep a correct balance. For example, in early pandemic when conservatives started to really push against transitioning for children, many liberals simply ignored or even defended against the concerns being raised, and now… well now even adult transition being covered by healthcare providers are potentially going to be threatened. 
 

To you last point on capitalism, spill, I agree capitalism is another factor that can fuel bigotry, I'd say it's one contributing factor, because if we look at societies pre-capitalism… well… they weren't exactly pro-woman. 

[Sawk]

28 minutes ago, Illyboy said:

not straight but the replies I've gotten to my posts have made me realized I may have interiorized some of that right wing rethoric I criticize. Whoopsie... I should work on that (though always watching news on Spain's equivalent of Fox bc the public broadcaster is "Pravda" according to my dad doesn't help tbh, but maybe I can just learn to be critically thinking and discern better, I have no excuse tbh)

I don't think you've necessarily internalized right wing rhetoric by the way, like, I don't agree with all you said, but from what I understood from the things you wrote, you seem like someone that is critical of their own beliefs, that's a trait I really admire. 

[katara]

5 hours ago, Sazare said:

South Korea isn't even particularly feminist lmao. Every country with a higher percentage of people identifying as "feminists" has a higher fertility rate and lower suicide rate:

 

WTF is that poll with India - the rape capital of the world - being the most "feminist" country? 

[katara]

It's the unhinged capitalism which became an oligarchy of just a few mega corporations owning and deciding how the country is run. Don't worry though, the west is heading in the same direction, just at a slower pace.

 

It's so interesting that the examples of the most extreme authoritarianism and the most extreme capitalism live right next to each other as neighbors and both have existencial threatening problems - but very different ones.

 

If this is not an example that balance is the most important thing then I don't know what is.

[taylamour]

1 hour ago, katara said:

It's the unhinged capitalism which became an oligarchy of just a few mega corporations owning and deciding how the country is run. Don't worry though, the west is heading in the same direction, just at a slower pace.

 

It's so interesting that the examples of the most extreme authoritarianism and the most extreme capitalism live right next to each other as neighbors and both have existencial threatening problems - but very different ones.

 

If this is not an example that balance is the most important thing then I don't know what is.

This is sadly true.

 

Capitalism breeds some of the most awful behaviors in people here. Like even with K-Pop, agencies are breeding insane behavior from fans and blindly look the other way if it means they can make more money. 

[theweekend]

that's why only china and India are going keep happening otherwise Japan and SK are becoming fads

[Letters From Adi]

11 hours ago, aotearoa said:

Same in Japan. They will have to accept immigrants 

They already are. Indians and Nepalis are moving in huge numbers to Japan now. Nepalis are about to overtake Filipinos in Japan to become the largest ethnicity (outside East Asians)

Philippines' TFR has crashed to 1.4 now, so Filipinos themselves will have to import people soon.
Even in Indonesia, it's the tribal people in hinterlands having like 3-4 kids while the main groups like Javanese have like 1.5 

[Maleficent]

11 hours ago, Trent W said:

On the Internet you can easily find by opening any social media a woman complaining about all men, its being like that for years

Okay and? I highly doubt this is true, but even if it was, women are not in a position of power where these social media posts would  translate to real-life consequences for men. Meanwhile, men have been, and will continue to, negatively impact the lives of women in many, many ways because of the societal position of power they're in. If you think getting your feelings hurt by Facebook posts is remotely comparable to feeling a constant sense of anxiety anytime you're in a public space (a feeling that the rise of incel culture has helped increase tenfold) , then I don't know what to tell you.

[popmusicisdead]

all of this would've been avoided had they not kicked out Jessica from SNSD

[CroNich]

14 hours ago, Trent W said:

It's not women obviously but extreme feminism is feeding characters like Andrea Tate and the incel growth is absolutely through the roof

 

The only reason Andrew Tate exists is because of years and years of online "I hate all men" and "All men are trash" discourse 

So now the Andrew Tate-incel movement is also women's fault 

[Marianah Adkins]

Some of the comments here proving @Trent W's point lmao we need to persuade and expand, not alienate. Lets be real here, young teenage boys of all races do not respond well to the "men are trash" messaging that has been prevalent since last decade and as long as we keep blaming them/shaming them/refusing to acknowledge and resolve this right wing shift, well the feminist movement is going to take huge blows.

 

OT: Basically, South Korea is a capitalist dystopian shithole. It is expensive to live, to breathe or to have a family. This is mainly caused by the overdomination of chaebols in their economy, which has made sure that most of its wealth gain go to the top while the rest suffers through high cost of living and inflation.

The Korean Left as far as I know has their issues (aka the North Korea elephant that has been the lynchpin of conservatives against them). Hence, it limits their ability to properly advocate for what is wrong with the country and it allows right wingers to take hold of the narrative. For them its not the chaebols, its the women who "have all the privileges" being that they do not have mandatory service like the men and (wrongly) claiming that women have it easier than men.