Witness and Joanne don't seem so bad now, agree?

[Slap]

Everyone acted like these albums were massive bombs but lbr I think right now if Katy and Gaga could release something that does as well as these albums people would be pretty satisfied and impressed. They had hits and got decent sales and I never got the dragging at the time. To be clear I'm talking about the commercial performance not the music. 
 

Did people do too much on Witness and Joanne? Is it time to reclassify them now that we know what a true flop actually looks like?

 

 

 

Edited 2 hours ago by Slap

[LittleStarmen]

I think Joanne is pretty unlistenable and GaGa created the same album but better in the Star Is Born Soundtrack. Joanne is a such Not fun album

 

Witness has Bon Apetit and some campy songs that at least are fun

[Devin]

tsunami and diamond heart are highlights.

[Doctor Dick]

It's like Gaga will only be praised if she sells like it's 2009-10 and whenever she sells moderately (Joanne and Chromatica) non-Gaga stans will be calling it a flop because of higher standards for Ms. Germanotta. 

 

Katy's Witness was indeed a flop. A big one at that. And Smile and 143 bombed. Gaga has never had a studio album bomb in her entire career but because of her massive commercial and cultural peak it's like if it doesn't outdo that peak or match it it's labeled a flop or bomb. Joanne was never a flop. It had a strong first week, had a multi-platinum Top 5 hit attached to it and sold more copies before her Super Bowl in two months than Katy's Witness did in years. Add to that, Joanne had legit reasons to underperform or flop as it was entirely different than what Gaga was doing and a drastic change for her fandom whereas Katy just flopped because people moved on. 

 

Edited 2 hours ago by Doctor Dick

[wastedpotential]

NoFannes is overall a terrible album, but the rock-ish sound she was tapping into (Diamond Heart, John Wayne, and yes, Perfect Illusion) were ahead of their time. As for Witless... well, Miss You More is an above average power ballad!

 

Commercially they were both kinda toilet sisters, but GaGa has certainly recovered. 

Edited 2 hours ago by wastedpotential

[Escape]

Witness has several great songs, Joanne on the other hand...

 

[BODERLINE]

Both albums are still terrible, so no. Nothing has changed

[Solar]

Joanne clears

[Solar]

Roulette is a bop tho

[l3disko]

Witness was great.

 

Joanne however could be erased from Gaga's discography and no one would notice.

[By the Water]

Both flops. Them bombing harder since doesn't change that

[ericcartman]

Joanne is unlistenable 

 

Witness at least has Chained to the Rhythm which imo is underrated and deserved better.

[FabForAThrowback]

32 minutes ago, Doctor Dick said:

It's like Gaga will only be praised if she sells like it's 2009-10 and whenever she sells moderately (Joanne and Chromatica) non-Gaga stans will be calling it a flop because of higher standards for Ms. Germanotta. 

 

Katy's Witness was indeed a flop. A big one at that. And Smile and 143 bombed. Gaga has never had a studio album bomb in her entire career but because of her massive commercial and cultural peak it's like if it doesn't outdo that peak or match it it's labeled a flop or bomb. Joanne was never a flop. It had a strong first week, had a multi-platinum Top 5 hit attached to it and sold more copies before her Super Bowl in two months than Katy's Witness did in years. Add to that, Joanne had legit reasons to underperform or flop as it was entirely different than what Gaga was doing and a drastic change for her fandom whereas Katy just flopped because people moved on. 

 

I totally disagree about Witness. I want to recall that CTTR debuted at #4 and the album at #1. Furthermore, regardless the reasons, Witness has became a super iconic moment, with strong lyrics and memorable videos too. Lastly, Bon Appetit can be annotated now among Katy's most iconic songs.

So Witness will always be THAT album. 

[єѕℓαм]

Well Joanne didn't flop but witness did 

[rebeltwat]

Considering Witness was coming off of an era like Prism, yes it was a flop. Context matters. After she came out with Smile, I think the hope for Katy's comeback disappeared. Joanne was an underperformance compared to ARTPOP commercially but helped restore her brand with Million Reasons and the SB. I'm not sure what good Witness brought to Katy's career (the singles were bops - let's be clear on that). 

[LewisK]

I mean, at first I thought you were speaking about quality (which is subjective of course). In that regard, Joanne is ok, but it's not my cup of tea; and Witness is not one of my favourite albums, but I actually liked it. However, I like Chromatica waaaay more, and LG7 is shaping up to be one of my faves ever, while Smile and 143 are not it (for me).

 

Success-wise, I don't think we can talk about major bombs. Neither Joanne, Chromatica or Smile (with NRO and the last resurrection of HIH) did embarrassingly bad. 143 is the only one that could fit that drastic description. Plus, I don't even think Joanne was ever seen as a bomb. If anything, the ones that were severely criticized were ARTPOP and Witness, because they didn't meet the surreal expectations from the last peak eras.

 

Edited 1 hour ago by LewisK

[Doctor Dick]

14 minutes ago, FabForAThrowback said:

I totally disagree about Witness. I want to recall that CTTR debuted at #4 and the album at #1. Furthermore, regardless the reasons, Witness has became a super iconic moment, with strong lyrics and memorable videos too. Lastly, Bon Appetit can be annotated now among Katy's most iconic songs.

So Witness will always be THAT album. 

Bomb Appetite was a bomb tho and no one knows or remembers it in the GP. Witness itself debuted at #1 with tour bundles and would've had 50-60k without them probably. It was a major flop because it also just freefell after its first week which wasn't even that big with 180k. Joanne, however, spent 49 weeks on the Billboard 200 and charted on the 2017 Year-End Billboard 200 at #35. Witness spent less than six months on the Billboard 200 chart. I doubt Witness is a "super iconic" moment outside of the fanbase. 

Edited 1 hour ago by Doctor Dick

[Phaunzie]

The albums are great :D.

[polygon]

They're both masterpieces compared to their recent outputs

[FabForAThrowback]

26 minutes ago, Doctor Dick said:

Bomb Appetite was a bomb tho and no one knows or remembers it in the GP. Witness itself debuted at #1 with tour bundles and would've had 50-60k without them probably. It was a major flop because it also just freefell after its first week which wasn't even that big with 180k. Joanne, however, spent 49 weeks on the Billboard 200 and charted on the 2017 Year-End Billboard 200 at #35. Witness spent less than six months on the Billboard 200 chart. I doubt Witness is a "super iconic" moment outside of the fanbase. 

Again we can agree to disagree. But I don't get why replying to me talking about Joanne since I only pointed out some facts on Witness. There's no need to compare the two albums, I think that the point of this thread is to talk about the opinions respectively on both with hindsight. 

Edited 1 hour ago by FabForAThrowback

[Roberto]

Kinda, tbh. Both albums have some hidden gems (Diamond Heart, Witness, Roulette, Dancing In Circles to name a few) and they didn't perform that bad.

[loveisdead9582]

Everyone did a bit too much on both albums but in hindsight, Joanne was probably the worse of the two. It had a couple of decent songs but I really don't care for most of it (it's Gaga's only pop album I can say this about). Considering that Gaga was able to bounce back with some more successful projects id say it was a bigger flop for her in the long run. 

 

Witness was definitely a step down for Katy especially when you consider the one-two punch that was Teenage Dream/Prism. Witness had a couple of good songs on it as well and was a bit more put together than the hot mess that was Smile. In hindsight - cringy performances aside - it probably wasn't as big of a flop when you consider the performance of Smile and 143. 

[Saint James]

Joanne didn't flop but it was always bad

 

i think its success is actually quite impressive considering how dull the material and era was

[Gladiator]

idk I like both of these albums more than 99.9% of people seem to.