discussion Swiss 'burqa ban' to take effect from 2025

[Draper.]

2 hours ago, Illyboy said:

I wore a mask in public for most of 2021-2024 (also 2020 obv but everyone did then so that's beyond the point) and it made me feel less anxious/safer (ik how weird that sounds), if I didn't have it on the anxiety from people around me coughing and smoking and etc would have me panicking all the time, I think having a lot less anxiety attacks at the expense of not having "regular social interaction" was worth it for me, not that I am that sociable anyways I rarely engage in more than small talk irl LOL

But burqa covers your eyes too, you become completely inexpressive to other people. Not really the same.

[TiaTamera]

On 11/10/2024 at 3:16 PM, Space Cowboy said:

Hijabs and Burqas are symbols of female opression and tools to control women.

No they aren't. A woman can choose to wear it or not. Men taking it upon themselves to violate a woman's body on behalf of it has everything to do with the patriarchy. Men abuse women globally whether they are covered up or not. The irony of this "oppression" moniker is to restrict women's choice to cover up. Why is it always seen as woman empowerment when a woman chooses to wear barely any clothing but not if she chooses to cover up?  If it's about not oppressing women then why restrict what they can wear?

[TiaTamera]

On 11/10/2024 at 3:14 PM, l3disko said:

Their country their rules.

 

Don't immigrate to a country if you're not willing to assimilate to their culture.

Y'all always say this when it comes to banning things that are Islamic but let it be the US banning same sex marriage or the abortion ban than its oppression  it's the US and their rules right? If their culture is against gay marriage and abortions, shouldn't gays and women stop immigrating to the US? What happened to my body my choice? Does that only apply to western people? I can understand a burqa cause it completely covers the face but with hijabs, Switzerland is cold so it's not like people aren't wearing head coverings and scarfs around their necks anyways

[Space Cowboy]

2 minutes ago, TiaTamera said:

No they aren't. A woman can choose to wear it or not. Men taking it upon themselves to violate a woman's body on behalf of it has everything to do with the patriarchy. Men abuse women globally whether they are covered up or not. The irony of this "oppression" moniker is to restrict women's choice to cover up. Why is it always seen as woman empowerment when a woman chooses to wear barely any clothing but not if she chooses to cover up?  If it's about not oppressing women then why restrict what they can wear?

When is a "choice" truly a choice? Many women wear the hijab and burqas due to social or familial pressure, knowing there could be serious consequences, including violence, if they remove it.
 

And many women are brainwashed from a young age to believe it is their duty, making it difficult to distinguish genuine choice from the archaic societal expectations of a deeply misogynist and oppresive culture that doesn't respect human rights. 

[CBC]

On 11/11/2024 at 9:34 PM, MP3 said:

I think anything that covers your face entirely should be banned in public for safety reason

that's what Swizterland is doing. The burqa ban is just a consequence of that

[Ayanaa]

Good. Islamic veiling will never be a free choice until every single woman on this planet has a choice. 

[TiaTamera]

1 minute ago, Space Cowboy said:

When is a "choice" truly a choice? Many women wear the hijab and burqas due to social or familial pressure, knowing there could be serious consequences, including violence, if they remove it.
 

And many women are brainwashed from a young age to believe it is their duty, making it difficult to distinguish genuine choice from the archaic societal expectations of a deeply misogynist and oppresive culture that doesn't respect human rights. 

It's a choice in the Qu'ran. A woman isn't restricted from/forbidden from entering Heaven because she didn't cover up. It's not even a part of the 5 pillars. Culture and religion aren't the same thing. Men aren't even supposed to be shacking hands with a woman that he isn't married to or related to, so how can he put his hands on her to beat her for not covering up? Men are supposed to be "lowering their gaze" and people always seem to gloss over the modesty that Islam calls for men to be and put everything onto women, but that's patriarchy and happens regardless of religion, regardless of country, regardless of what a woman is wearing. And everyone isn't "brainwashed". Just because someone does something that you don't like, doesn't automatically make them brainwashed. Some people know how to make their own decisions if you didn't know that. 
 

And even if we're going to say that Muslim women only cover up because of societal pressure, what societal pressure does Switzerland have on these women? Wouldn't all of them stop covering up (sans it being cold) since they are in a new society? Often times, Muslim women cover up more in non Muslim countries (hence the burqas and niqabs) because of "fitna" not oppression.

[TiaTamera]

15 minutes ago, CBC said:

that's what Swizterland is doing. The burqa ban is just a consequence of that

But that's not what it says here 

 

"In addition, covering the face remains allowed for reasons of health, safety, weather conditions and local Swiss customs. It is also permitted for artistic and entertainment performances and for advertising purposes."

 

A niqab is for safety, but I guess that only applies to European women 

[CBC]

3 minutes ago, TiaTamera said:

A niqab is for safety

could you elaborate on this please? 

[Space Cowboy]

5 minutes ago, TiaTamera said:

It's a choice in the Qu'ran. A woman isn't restricted from/forbidden from entering Heaven because she didn't cover up. It's not even a part of the 5 pillars. Culture and religion aren't the same thing. Men aren't even supposed to be shacking hands with a woman that he isn't married to or related to, so how can he put his hands on her to beat her for not covering up? Men are supposed to be "lowering their gaze" and people always seem to gloss over the modesty that Islam calls for men to be and put everything onto women, but that's patriarchy and happens regardless of religion, regardless of country, regardless of what a woman is wearing. And everyone isn't "brainwashed". Just because someone does something that you don't like, doesn't automatically make them brainwashed. Some people know how to make their own decisions if you didn't know that. 
 

And even if we're going to say that Muslim women only cover up because of societal pressure, what societal pressure does Switzerland have on these women? Wouldn't all of them stop covering up (sans it being cold) since they are in a new society? Often times, Muslim women cover up more in non Muslim countries (hence the burqas and niqabs) because of "fitna" not oppression.

 

 

You say it's a choice in the Quran. Sure, technically, however, the reality is, in many societies and families, wearing the hijab isn't presented as a choice but as an obligation tied to morality and faith. Girls are raised being told that not wearing it is haram or whatever and will make them bad Muslims, shame their families, or get them raped, etc.. This is coercion masked as religious devotion. You can't claim it's a "choice" when not complying often comes with emotional blackmail and even physical violence. 

 

Now, you are saying that men in Islam are supposed to lower their gaze and not beat women? Okaaay lmao that sure doesn't happen, let's talk about reality, not an idealistic interpretation of adoctrine. You know pretty well that in many communities, religion is cherry-picked and weaponized to control women. The men who are supposed to be lowering their gaze? They're the same ones who harass women for not covering up or beat their wives because they needed some "disciplining".

 

You're absolutely right that patriarchy exists beyond Islam, but let's not pretend that religious structures don't often reinforce this patriarchy. Men exploit religious ambiguity and societal norms to keep control over women.

 

And I stand by my comment that women are being brainwashed: This isn't about someone simply doing something I don't like. it's about women being indoctrinated into believing that submission is their duty. If you've been conditioned your entire life to think your worth and virtue depend on covering up, can you really call that a free choice?

 

And this my final statement on the matter. I don't feel like discussing this any further since it's clear we disagree. 

[MattieB]

On 11/10/2024 at 8:20 PM, velocity said:

good. this misogynistic bullshit has no place in europe

Europe is literally the birth place of misogyny

[BGKC]

Yikes! The way I read this as though Swiss "Burgas" were getting banned as if there was some sort of indefinite recall. Im indifferent about burqa bans though. Muslims often come from countries that criminalize LGBTs as well as educated/independent women, so… 

[XDNA]

On 11/11/2024 at 1:34 PM, MP3 said:

I think anything that covers your face entirely should be banned in public for safety reason

agree, public safety should always be the priority.

[A.R.L]

It's interesting to see how some men go to the beach nearly naked, only wearing a shirt. Many of them may have hair and physiques just as appealing, if not more so, than some women. So why don't they cover up as well?

 

Burqas and hijabs have been used to control women, and this isn't exclusive to Islam; similar practices exist in Judaism and Christianity. In Islam, however, these customs are more noticable, while in Christianity, for example they are often confined to religious institutions.  
 

I don't hold the older generation accountable, but for the younger generation, there is plenty of information available to understand that these customs are rooted more in ideology than anything else.

 

That said, I completely support Switzerland's decision. It's their country, their rules, and it's also a matter of security.

[blastoisebaby]

On 11/10/2024 at 10:31 PM, alexrex said:

In the past, I would have agreed that it goes against the freedom of religion, self-expression, etc, etc...

But many muslim countries have these rules that go against women liberties and LGBTQ+ folks (and claim that it's their culture and should be respected, so people should follow).

 

So I'm glad it's the same the other way around. And if you don't like it, you can go.

I would've said the same,but now reading your post,It has me questioning my stance - Hmmmm - Nuanced conversation.

[Démodé]

Again, the liberalism in here, far too much.

 

We all deserve our far-right govs in Europe and you definitely deserve Trump in US.

[Cloudy]

What is even the point? Just white nationalism and xenophobia...Just a cheap and nasty way of campaigning and distracting from issues that actually matter.

 

This only creates resentment and rejection making integration of this foreign communities more and more difficult. Allianating both nationals and immigrants/descendants from ME origin.

 

I've always thought acceptance and respect leads to change and self reflecting, as well as socio-economical status improvement. This kind of attitudes of politicians always are a way to deflect from issues that actually matter, what they should focus in social policies targeted to the poor and middle class communities, like cost of living, housing healthcare and such.

[dumbsparce]

13 minutes ago, Cloudy said:

What is even the point? Just white nationalism and xenophobia...Just a cheap and nasty way of campaigning and distracting from issues that actually matter.

 

This only creates resentment and rejection making integration of this foreign communities more and more difficult. Allianating both nationals and immigrants/descendants from ME origin.

 

I've always thought acceptance and respect leads to change and self reflecting, as well as socio-economical status improvement. This kind of attitudes of politicians always are a way to deflect from issues that actually matter, what they should focus in social policies targeted to the poor and middle class communities, like cost of living, housing healthcare and such.

Not you using the words acceptance and respect to defend islam of all things.  I've seen it all.

[gab00]

Atrl has changed a Lot.

 

Had this happened 8 years ago you'd be all complaining but now most of y'all support these kinda legislation..

 

[P.O.P]

On 11/11/2024 at 1:35 AM, shoganai said:

They should rather stream Burqa (Demo Leak) by Lady Ga Ga 

Muslims have enough BOMBS, thanks.

[TeemoR]

Good.

[Kamil24]

the hijab should remain legal, the burqa should not

[Shelter]

21 hours ago, gab00 said:

Atrl has changed a Lot.

 

Had this happened 8 years ago you'd be all complaining but now most of y'all support these kinda legislation..

 

Great to see people grow

 

 

[WaterDiamonds]

Guess they really wanted to see the girl behind the aura, behind the curtain, behind the burqa... 

[Margaux]

gross. people defending islam is so weird. u wont see people defending christians for their tomfoolery. considering islam is very anti-women. certain users here are obv misogynistic by default. if trans women can't wear what they want on islam countries then muslims should also abide by the rules imposed by the country they are visiting. burqa isn't some necessity, it's literally a piece of fabric