discussion Swiss 'burqa ban' to take effect from 2025

[Sharamee6]

Edit.

Edited November 11 by Sharamee6
Double post

[Sharamee6]

17 hours ago, Doctor Dick said:

Great! It's oppression covered up (pun intended). 

 

Afghani women are now not allowed to speak in public. The whole Middle East is filled with these strict laws and good for Switzerland to achieve this.  

Let's not generalize and come off as ignorant please. Levantine/GCC countries don't have these laws at all (last one that did was Saudi Arabia, but that has been totally over-turned and is now the total opposite of what it used to be). Afghanistan, Iran and Pakistan do NOT represent the Middle East. Even Arabic speaking countries in Africa such as Egypt, Algeria, Tunisia and Morocco don't have such laws. Please know your geography before you utter such non-sense. 

[Capris Groove]

Men and women wear traditional garments in the Middle East. When they relocate and move outside the Middle East the men take on Western dress but the women are not allowed to.

 

That's sexist.
 

Also, let's not sit here and pretend that every woman who wears the hijab does so of her own volition, and thus banning it violates her. Even when it isn't legally mandated, there is often tremendous family and social pressure and even coercion.

[Weld_E]

18 hours ago, heckinglovato said:

They taught us in gender studies that telling a woman she can't wear something she wants to wear is anti-feminist, I guess they forgot the caveat that it's actually okay when white politicians do it to Muslim women! 

 

This is proof that when westerners say feminism, they only mean white feminism 

Who told women they need to wear the niqab and the hijab in the first place? 

[family.guy123]

4 hours ago, Riverbank said:

Muslim majority countries have literally banned the burqa before as well, but if someone from New Jersey says it's islamophobia then it must be true

I don't think they're actually "from" New Jersey, iykwim

[Communion]

5 hours ago, Riverbank said:

islamophobia

I said nothing about this being Islamophobia or not. I simply said the suggestion that arguing Switzerland should be inherently Christian and white - as users suggested - isn't somehow a type of "identity politics" is silly.  

 

If you want to believe there is some innately white European identity that is precious and must be protected - again as other have argued - you can do that in the literal sense but that literally also is identity politics. 

[MP3]

I think anything that covers your face entirely should be banned in public for safety reason

[l3disko]

On 11/10/2024 at 3:14 PM, l3disko said:

Their country their rules.

 

Don't immigrate to a country if you're not willing to assimilate to their culture.

The way I thought my comment would be 90% dislikes. 

[Bubble Tea]

39 minutes ago, l3disko said:

The way I thought my comment would be 90% dislikes. 

I was pleasantly surprised by ATRL on that one. 

[Bloo]

People should be free to wear what they want. Burqas are a problem in societies where women are threatened with violence if they do not wear them. If any person chooses to wear them of their own free will, then why should anybody else care?

[SlowGinFizzzz]

23 minutes ago, Bloo said:

People should be free to wear what they want. Burqas are a problem in societies where women are threatened with violence if they do not wear them. If any person chooses to wear them of their own free will, then why should anybody else care?

I think the idea that women somehow decide to wear oppressive clothing out of their own free will is a bit naive, more often than not they are pushed in that direction by their peers, family and religious community (at least that's usually the case over here, I don't know how things are in the US). An example: while for the most part it hasn't reached the "threatened with violence" step yet, young muslim girls being pressured into wearing hijabs and "modest" clothes by radicalised teenage boys who see themselves as some sort of moral guardians is actually becoming quite a problem in schools in some European countries such as Austria. [link] [link] (Articles in German, but I think Google Translate should do the job.) It's bad enough that this is happening to those girls at all, but now imagine them being forced to hide their entire body and face if burqas weren't banned altogether.

 

Anecdotal evidence obviously, but none of the liberal muslims I know would ever just decide to start wearing a hijab, whereas the ones from more conservative families that were pressured into wearing it as teenagers for the most continued doing so as adult women. I do agree that generally people should be able to decide for themselves what they want to wear, but in cases like this and with clothes that were designed to actively oppress women (and make assimilation into society at large as difficult as possible), I think it's reasonable for the state to step in and set up a few basic rules that need to be respected.

[Bloo]

2 hours ago, SlowGinFizzzz said:

I think the idea that women somehow decide to wear oppressive clothing out of their own free will is a bit naive, more often than not they are pushed in that direction by their peers, family and religious community (at least that's usually the case over here, I don't know how things are in the US). An example: while for the most part it hasn't reached the "threatened with violence" step yet, young muslim girls being pressured into wearing hijabs and "modest" clothes by radicalised teenage boys who see themselves as some sort of moral guardians is actually becoming quite a problem in schools in some European countries such as Austria. [link] [link] (Articles in German, but I think Google Translate should do the job.) It's bad enough that this is happening to those girls at all, but now imagine them being forced to hide their entire body and face if burqas weren't banned altogether.

 

Anecdotal evidence obviously, but none of the liberal muslims I know would ever just decide to start wearing a hijab, whereas the ones from more conservative families that were pressured into wearing it as teenagers for the most continued doing so as adult women. I do agree that generally people should be able to decide for themselves what they want to wear, but in cases like this and with clothes that were designed to actively oppress women (and make assimilation into society at large as difficult as possible), I think it's reasonable for the state to step in and set up a few basic rules that need to be respected.

Then, shouldn't we be consistent and abolish the oppressive clothing found in Christian religious sects? Is it possible for women to be abused into wearing clothing in certain households where Sharia law is not maintained? Sure. Let's say that's true for every single woman that wears the burqa or hijab in a non-Sharia practicing country (it's not, but let's pretend), does the abuse somehow magically disappear because of this law? No. The abuse of women will continue in a different manner. This is just Islamophobia under the guise of protecting women. There are women that do choose to wear the burqa or hijab of their own accord. As an agnostic person that has very negative feelings towards religion as a whole, I don't understand it. But their lives are none of my business so I don't see the point in advocating for a law that criminalizes a part of their culture they might cherish for reasons I might not understand.

[MP3]

3 hours ago, Bloo said:

People should be free to wear what they want. Burqas are a problem in societies where women are threatened with violence if they do not wear them. If any person chooses to wear them of their own free will, then why should anybody else care?

Your face should be visible when you are out in public, period

[dumbsparce]

Why is the burqa compared to whatever christian nuns wear? Are we completely ignoring the fact that nuns choose to live that kind of (oppressive) lifestyle? There's no man behind them threatening their life if they don't cover themselves up. Quite the opposite actually.

Edited November 12 by dumbsparce

[Illyboy]

On 11/10/2024 at 8:07 PM, prettyinpink940 said:

From January 1, 2025, it will be forbidden to cover the face in public places throughout Switzerland. Violations can be punished with a fine of up to CHF1,000 (about $1,143).

https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/democracy/swiss-ban-on-face-covering-will-apply-from-2025/88007484

 

Thoughts?

 

Does it also ban other type of facial covers such as balaclavas or is it specifically just for burqas?

Edited November 12 by Illyboy
burqa is spelt with q whoops (in the article they wrote it with k so i had a tiny lapsus)

[Illyboy]

On 11/10/2024 at 10:35 PM, Dumbledore said:

The internalized islamophobia in this thread wow, many of you have a lot of anger and a "revenge" sentiment that you think this is somehow liberating women. Let women liberate themselves, don't tell them when and how to liberate, that's oppression too sweaties. And it's very common on first world countries that think they are so much better than the rest of the world that they will tell you to think and act their way and at their own pace, and if you do otherwise you'll be punished and treated as a "beast". How disgusting...

No because once I tried to make this point during a class in high school (not about burqas though) and I got called a lot of bad stuff (though its very likely that I didn't word it right so it came off wrong). Like, we cannot just go to a foreign country and enforce **** on them that's colonialism. One thing is to 'teach' them values but let them consider if they want/are ready for it. The world has a lot of bad stuff happening and pretending to be the world hero going to save everyone is just delusional (i.e. if they don't want to change then there's not much you can do, like invading them to enforce 'it' would just make things worse for day-to-day people; Europe was pretty homophobic a century ago and parts of it still are today so I want to believe that's just a gradual change most societies will go through? Enforcing it by force might do a boomerang effect but idk I'm just thinking out loud take it witha  grain of salt)

That being said, I don't really understand burqas/niqabs etc like idk much abt them so idk what to say about the ban besides the question that I wrote earlier "does it reffer to all facial covers or just the islamic ones" bc judging by the wording it would seem balaclavas and similar attire would be banned too but when I opened the article it specifically mentioned burqas so I'm confused about that.

Though I also lowkey agree with the sentiment some people wrote here that "if those islamic countries don't want western walues then we are justified to ban theirs too" but I'm also conflicted because that's literally an eye for an eye and I'm not sure if 'an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth' is a correct way of proceeding with stuff in general.

[Illyboy]

On 11/10/2024 at 10:53 PM, 362 said:

what's anti feminist is defending that barbaric religion

It's hard to take these comments seriously when they outright call a different religion barbaric yk

 

Like, Idk much abt islam but what I do know I'm not too fond of yet I wouldn't call them "barbaric" just because they have different values. That's just straight up racist/islamophobic and I should know better than that. I don't see the muslims in Albania or Jordan being so backward as many people in this thread make all of muslims to be. Sure, what's going on in Afghanistan is intorelable but it doesn't represent all of islam, the rulers over there follow a very extreme cult of it. It's like saying all christians believe that blood transfers are sinful (jehovah's witnesses) or [insert another wacky fringe thing here].

[Illyboy]

On 11/10/2024 at 11:26 PM, Dumbledore said:

True, but don't BAN it. Let. Women. Wear. What. They. Want. Let everyone move at their own pace. Focus on ensuring that your country is safe for those people you say you defend or protect with this law.

This + your long post earlier.

Telling women what they should and shouldn't wear is misogynistic + the whole "coming as savior to enforce on a different culture" thing is pretty imperialistic. If they want to stop wearing them they will do it, look at the protests in Iran, in some years I'm sure they will succeed as the Ayatollah regime is struggling with multiple internal issues, at the start they even had wide society support but that stopped when they started jailing people yet over a year after it started I still hear news from time to time about activists being arrested, the fight is still on. We can support them in their fight, what we shouldn't do is bomb Iran to smithereens to "liberate" their people, because when the west does that it's not to liberate the people but rather liberate their land's natural resources for the western markets to profit from.

TMI/Off-topic:

Spoiler

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Let everyone move at their own pace.

Not even on like a geopoliticfs/societal level but also on the individual scale. I am one of those weirdos who kept/keeps wearing a mask in public even though the pandemic ended ages ago but I'm slowly starting to take it off in certain situations where I wouldn't 1-2 years ago. I am moving at my own page, I am pretty sure that if my family and society started forcing me to take it out abruptly I would actually cling onto it even more (which is kinda what happened years ago until my parents kinda got the memo to stop pressuring me about that and just resigned themselves).

 

[Illyboy]

On 11/10/2024 at 11:31 PM, Draper. said:

It's impossible to ensure people feel safe in a place when they are literally wearing something that prevents them from regular social interaction. 

I wore a mask in public for most of 2021-2024 (also 2020 obv but everyone did then so that's beyond the point) and it made me feel less anxious/safer (ik how weird that sounds), if I didn't have it on the anxiety from people around me coughing and smoking and etc would have me panicking all the time, I think having a lot less anxiety attacks at the expense of not having "regular social interaction" was worth it for me, not that I am that sociable anyways I rarely engage in more than small talk irl LOL

[Illyboy]

On 11/10/2024 at 11:57 PM, BrokenMachine said:

Of course I consider burqas as some oppression tool against woman, but I highly doubt banning them would end their oppression. It's not that simple. All of those Muslim women living there have a safety network for them after this policy being implemented? Or is just a silent way of telling them to f*** off from their country? I'm curious, and given the responses in here seems like they're aiming for the latter.

 

 

This. Making it illegal will just mean they'll keep doing it but not in public. Are they going to make a Swiss Inquisition to make sure they're not wearing niqabs/burqas inside the house? It's just pushing an issue under the rug.

[Illyboy]

On 11/11/2024 at 12:39 AM, Doctor Dick said:

It's kind of a difficult subject but to describe it and make it more simple: a burqa either covers your entire face except your eyes or downright your entire body. And in a European society any disguise like that would be a illegal. The main concern is if it's legal people will be able to commit crimes and not get recognised through cameras and such. I saw you mention nuns as a counter-argument but that doesn't work because nuns don't cover up their faces and Switzerland is NOT banning regular hijabs either for the same reasons. 

 

It becomes a problem when you literally don't see who you're talking to. How can a person covered in a burqa even legally enter a bank and document their the owners of the account with an ID or leave and enter a country if their face is completely covered up. Do you not know how potentially dangerous that is as well? It doesn't take a lot of critical thinking skills to see that this is part of the reason. Other discussions would include how burqas are used as an oppression tool as well, harming the owners if they don't wear them in the Middle East. Many women wear them because they have to but the ones that say they like to are also part of the ideologies of Islam. They say they like to wear them because it makes them feel clean and faithful to their husbands (literally the ONLY reasons they wear a burqa). So it's also against human rights to be controlled like that. It's a controversial topic but there's a reason it's only happening in the Middle East and not anywhere else because it stems from their religious beliefs and culture and it is only and solely about attraction and sex which is heavily forbidden in those cultures. A woman wearing a burqa only does it because she's taught it is respectful to the man. There's simply no other reason. What? You think women wear burqas to hide from flies? It's about men, about women being seen as cleaner and more wholesome, about hiding features that can attract other men, about sex. It's about men and sex which makes it misogyny.  

ykw hats off because this is an actual argument and not just reactionary yapping about "muh culture"

The using it as a cover for security cameras etc is actually a fair point. But I'm not sure... like was that really the intetion behind the law? Because judging by how most people here replied it wouldn't seem like they're worried a random dude will put on a burqa or niqab to rob a bank. (Tbh when I saw that pic of a ski mask/balaclava earlier in this thread my first thought was "that's what robbers wear (like in media/the stereotype of a robber)")

Quote

A woman wearing a burqa only does it because she's taught it is respectful to the man. There's simply no other reason. What? You think women wear burqas to hide from flies? It's about men, about women being seen as cleaner and more wholesome, about hiding features that can attract other men, about sex. It's about men and sex which makes it misogyny.

This is a very valid point and I agree with you here. I don't know if a ban would solve it though but yeah I see how the burqa is misogynistic even if the women wearing it don't feel "oppressed" because they've been taught it's natural. I guess that's what makes it so hard for them to change, if they see it as something natural, intrinsecal, to their presentation to the public/sexuality/whatever it will be hard to separate it but idk I'm no expert I'm kinda yapping rn

[Illyboy]

20 hours ago, MP3 said:

Your face should be visible when you are out in public, period

nothing personal i just noticed you said this and this is you avi and thought it was a funny coincidence

OT: Yeah, if people wearing this aren't allowed to cross borders and go to banks I can understand why burqas could be banned from the same places, but people still wear them on the street if it's really cold so what would be boundary? People wear these balaclavas/ski masks to do crime because they can be (almost) anonymous (I say almost bc probably if I know the person very well I might recognize their eyes but that's kinda reaching isn't it?) but there's also genuine reasons to wear it. So how do we tell appart a muslim woman wearing the niqab for religious reasons (whether that'd be oppresive or not is a different discussion since I'm talking abt crime/safety rn) from someone wearing it to hide themselves from law enforcement whilst commiting a felony?

Edited November 12 by Illyboy
grammar touch-ups (I'm ESL speaker)

[UnusualBoy]

I think this in terms of safety is for the best, you shouldn't be out in public with something that covers your face entirely and well this only goes for burqas, not hijabs so...

[dumbsparce]

50 minutes ago, Illyboy said:

This. Making it illegal will just mean they'll keep doing it but not in public. Are they going to make a Swiss Inquisition to make sure they're not wearing niqabs/burqas inside the house? It's just pushing an issue under the rug.

Well what do you want them to do? How are these women going to find liberty if their options are : 1) wear it at home AND in public or 2) only wear it at home bc the state wants to push an "issue" under the rug

 

Which brings me to my next point. The issue at hand is that misogyny is fundamental to that religion. There's nothing the swiss state (or anyone) can do to rewire the brains of ppl who blindly follow the quran or whatever their holy book is called. It's not "sweeping under the rug" but rather "this is the best we can do". At least forcing some normalcy might open their eyes a little bit.

[KOMH]

We need an EU wide ban. Enough with misogynistic subjugation.

Edited November 13 by KOMH