discussion Swiss 'burqa ban' to take effect from 2025

[BTS]

Banning "face coverings" is just disguised Islamophobia. Let's be honest.  I can guarantee no one will be facing fines if they're wearing face masks on Halloween. 

 

They should just be like France and ban all religious symbols in public such as crosses, bindis or stars of David.
 

But they would never do that… Hmm I wonder what the difference is 

[BrokenMachine]

3 hours ago, alexrex said:

In the past, I would have agreed that it goes against the freedom of religion, self-expression, etc, etc...

But many muslim countries have these rules that go against women liberties and LGBTQ+ folks (and claim that it's their culture and should be respected, so people should follow).

 

So I'm glad it's the same the other way around. And if you don't like it, you can go.

So your quick reaction is to go as low as them and act just out of revenge, even when this might hurt Muslim women while at it? Very mindful and mature if you ask me 

Edited November 11 by BrokenMachine

[kellebrity98]

21 minutes ago, BrokenMachine said:

So your quick reaction is to go as low as them and act just out of revenge, even when this might hurt Muslim women while at it? Very mindful and mature if you ask me 

literally. you want them to accept you but you don't accept them. 

[Doctor Dick]

2 hours ago, heckinglovato said:

I know the difference, I was asking who decides that a burqa/niqab are a level of oppression that should be banned but hijabs are not, and why?

It's kind of a difficult subject but to describe it and make it more simple: a burqa either covers your entire face except your eyes or downright your entire body. And in a European society any disguise like that would be a illegal. The main concern is if it's legal people will be able to commit crimes and not get recognised through cameras and such. I saw you mention nuns as a counter-argument but that doesn't work because nuns don't cover up their faces and Switzerland is NOT banning regular hijabs either for the same reasons. 

 

It becomes a problem when you literally don't see who you're talking to. How can a person covered in a burqa even legally enter a bank and document their the owners of the account with an ID or leave and enter a country if their face is completely covered up. Do you not know how potentially dangerous that is as well? It doesn't take a lot of critical thinking skills to see that this is part of the reason. Other discussions would include how burqas are used as an oppression tool as well, harming the owners if they don't wear them in the Middle East. Many women wear them because they have to but the ones that say they like to are also part of the ideologies of Islam. They say they like to wear them because it makes them feel clean and faithful to their husbands (literally the ONLY reasons they wear a burqa). So it's also against human rights to be controlled like that. It's a controversial topic but there's a reason it's only happening in the Middle East and not anywhere else because it stems from their religious beliefs and culture and it is only and solely about attraction and sex which is heavily forbidden in those cultures. A woman wearing a burqa only does it because she's taught it is respectful to the man. There's simply no other reason. What? You think women wear burqas to hide from flies? It's about men, about women being seen as cleaner and more wholesome, about hiding features that can attract other men, about sex. It's about men and sex which makes it misogyny.  

[Doctor Dick]

1 hour ago, BrokenMachine said:

Isn't this the kind of clothing people in the mountains use?

 

They use it because it's cold as **** and would literally be harmful to you physically, not in a supposed after-life. Also, no one with that example you just provided would be able to cross borders or go to a bank either. It's completely illegal and harmful. 

[NewStanner]

I'm all against forcing women to wear anything, but not letting them wear something is just as bad  Such a stupid law

[Delirious]

14 minutes ago, Doctor Dick said:

It's kind of a difficult subject but to describe it and make it more simple: a burqa either covers your entire face except your eyes or downright your entire body. And in a European society any disguise like that would be a illegal. The main concern is if it's legal people will be able to commit crimes and not get recognised through cameras and such. I saw you mention nuns as a counter-argument but that doesn't work because nuns don't cover up their faces and Switzerland is NOT banning regular hijabs either for the same reasons. 

 

It becomes a problem when you literally don't see who you're talking to. How can a person covered in a burqa even legally enter a bank and document their the owners of the account with an ID or leave and enter a country if their face is completely covered up. Do you not know how potentially dangerous that is as well? It doesn't take a lot of critical thinking skills to see that this is part of the reason. Other discussions would include how burqas are used as an oppression tool as well, harming the owners if they don't wear them in the Middle East. Many women wear them because they have to but the ones that say they like to are also part of the ideologies of Islam. They say they like to wear them because it makes them feel clean and faithful to their husbands (literally the ONLY reasons they wear a burqa). So it's also against human rights to be controlled like that. It's a controversial topic but there's a reason it's only happening in the Middle East and not anywhere else because it stems from their religious beliefs and culture and it is only and solely about attraction and sex which is heavily forbidden in those cultures. A woman wearing a burqa only does it because she's taught it is respectful to the man. There's simply no other reason. What? You think women wear burqas to hide from flies? It's about men, about women being seen as cleaner and more wholesome, about hiding features that can attract other men, about sex. It's about men and sex which makes it misogyny.  

Oh they're not banning hijabs? Then I agree with banning face coverings. A fine isn't even that bad tbh

[Doctor Dick]

4 minutes ago, Delirious said:

Oh they're not banning hijabs? Then I agree with banning face coverings. A fine isn't even that bad tbh

Yeah, users on here have got to get more educated on what a burqa vs. hijab is  Both the ones against it and the ones for it. 

[ShadeIena]

2 hours ago, heckinglovato said:

Your fave would 100% be jailed/fined under the law you're proposing, as law enforcement would have no objective way of distinguishing whether a woman is wearing a headscarf for religious reasons or as a fashion statement 

 

Or maybe they should do ID checks for Arabic surnames and round those people up? 

You seem so special! get yourself checked to the hospital so they can help you 

[John Slayne]

the simplistic takes here. not all Muslim women or women who wish to cover their face are victims needing to be saved, but they are also not all empowered girlbosses either. culture and religion are a bit more complicated than that, i am not convinced this law will do a lot of good. all of y'all applauding this will be real surprised when these right-wing European governments start infringing upon YOUR freedoms. 

[Jagger]

No matter what the "it's a woman's right to choose" crowd says the burqa is 100% misogynistic. Even if a woman "chose" to wear it she's wearing it because she's been convinced by religion that her God believes she isn't worthy of being a person perceived by others. Cult brainwashing!

[Jagger]

3 minutes ago, John Slayne said:

the simplistic takes here. not all Muslim women or women who wish to cover their face are victims needing to be saved, but they are also not all empowered girlbosses either. culture and religion are a bit more complicated than that, i am not convinced this law will do a lot of good. all of y'all applauding this will be real surprised when these right-wing European governments start infringing upon YOUR freedoms. 

I agree with most of your points and I'm actually asking this in 100% good faith. How can covering up your entire personhood due to gender be anything more than being a victim of misogyny (even if the man oppressing you is your god himself)? 
 

again I'm just trying to truly understand because I am all for cultural identity and freedom of expression but the burqa just screams "I'm not worthy of being a person in public"

[punisher]

54 minutes ago, Doctor Dick said:

It's kind of a difficult subject but to describe it and make it more simple: a burqa either covers your entire face except your eyes or downright your entire body. And in a European society any disguise like that would be a illegal. The main concern is if it's legal people will be able to commit crimes and not get recognised through cameras and such. I saw you mention nuns as a counter-argument but that doesn't work because nuns don't cover up their faces and Switzerland is NOT banning regular hijabs either for the same reasons. 

okay i get the burqa, but we know the next step is they'll ban hijabs all together, just like france

[Doctor Dick]

9 minutes ago, punisher said:

okay i get the burqa, but we know the next step is they'll ban hijabs all together, just like france

Hijabs aren't banned in France from what I know. It's just banned from sports in France.  

[Jagger]

5 hours ago, heckinglovato said:

Where do you draw the line of "oppressive" and who draws it? Should the government get to legislate oppression? Why is a face cover oppressive and not a headscarf? And if a headscarf is also oppressive then will Catholic nuns attire also be banned? Or is it only oppressive if it originates from a non-Western culture? 

 

Also how come when Afghanistan/Taliban legislate their "culture" the immediate reaction here is we should bomb them or implement regime change, but when western governments want to legislate their "culture" (a Swiss culture of skiing in ski masks in the Alps but women can't choose to cover their face if they wish), then everyone applauds it? 

 

So many questions! 

I mean it's a pretty low bar to believe that we need to be able to see somebody's face in modern society. It's not like thousands of years of evolution didn't contribute to the uncanniness of burqas... 

Edited November 11 by Jagger

[Jagger]

3 hours ago, heckinglovato said:

It's the same punishment for women who wear the hijab too, so are you saying the hijab should also be banned? If so, would the head cover ban only apply to Muslims wearing a hijab or would people who wear winter hats also be criminalized?

 

What other aspects of religious scripture do you think the government should pick apart and legislate upon? And does it only apply to Islam or would it also apply to Christians and Jewish people?

 

Also, if stoning women (or domestic violence in general) is what they're afraid of, why not just enforce DV and homicide laws, then problem-solved?

Wait it's also banning the hijab too? Dumb as ****. Do they also ban habits for nuns? Bandanas for cancer patients? Hats for baseball fans? As long as I can see your face you should be able to wear what you want 

Edited November 11 by Jagger

[John Slayne]

1 hour ago, Jagger said:

I agree with most of your points and I'm actually asking this in 100% good faith. How can covering up your entire personhood due to gender be anything more than being a victim of misogyny (even if the man oppressing you is your god himself)? 
 

again I'm just trying to truly understand because I am all for cultural identity and freedom of expression but the burqa just screams "I'm not worthy of being a person in public"

but there is already a lot of cultural assumptions about personhood being connected to your face (assuming that's what you meant since Europeans cover their hair for many reasons anyway) or to your body. Europe has always practiced modesty culture to some degree, why is there a line being drawn randomly now at burqas specifically? why not hijab as well? and if so, will nuns also be required to not cover their hair? are they victims of misogyny culture? arguably so.

 

i don't really have an answer to your question one way or another because I am not a Muslim woman and I have never worn burqa. i think a good start would be to ask veiled women how they feel about it and also creating a safe environment where everyone feels free and able to choose what they want to wear or how they wish to express their faith. no doubt there is a lot of misogyny in islam and among Muslims, but as a religion and community they are not unique in this and laws like this just scream xenophobia and racism, which could come back to bite us. i'm just suspicious of ATRLers celebrating this and viewing this completely out of context and not a part of a concerted effort to implement ultra-(white)conservative, ultra-Catholic regimes across Europe. 

[Ricardo1993]

Good 

[Acuminatus]

Swiss people have the right to determine what is acceptable in public, but if the reason for banning burqas is to prevent oppression, I'm not sure if this will actually help achieve the goal. It is trying to force or accelerate assimilation, which might build some resentment. We need the Muslims to modernize by themselves. Maybe they just want to reduce the number of people wearing burqas from coming to Switzerland entirely. 

I wonder if the ban can be argued from a public safety perspective. TBH things like masks and what not aren't illegal, so not sure that holds either.

[brraap]

I actually agree with this 

[velocity]

10 hours ago, Communion said:

I better not see y'all being outraged or shocked Trump won, y'all cousins at this point! 

yes totally, me opposing misogynistic practices that force women to cover their whole bodies because the female form equals sinfulness and is only the property of their husbands totally means i support the equivalent christian values in america

 

congrats, you're as sharp as ever

[Gesamtkunstwerk]

This is already in place in other European countries, including France, Belgium, Denmark, Netherlands etc. 

 

You aren't allowed to cover your face whatsoever in public, the law doesn't specifically target religious covering, but it's reason the law was established. 

 

Edit: It's not affecting hijabs  Where are you getting that from

Edited November 11 by Gesamtkunstwerk

[Communion]

3 hours ago, velocity said:

me opposing misogynistic practices that force women

1) Very woke, very social justice, very identity politics 

 

2) I did not realize the Islamic Kingdom of Switzerland had been forcing a moral code onto its female citizens. Are you suggesting women in the Islamic Kingdom of Switzerland will now be free to wear whatever they want with no laws on the books dictating how they dress?

[velocity]

10 minutes ago, Communion said:

1) Very woke, very social justice, very identity politics 

 

2) I did not realize the Islamic Kingdom of Switzerland had been forcing a moral code onto its female citizens. Are you suggesting women in the Islamic Kingdom of Switzerland will now be free to wear whatever they want with no laws on the books dictating how they dress?

ah it was my mistake to expect a rational thought from you instead of brainrotted talking points that are beyond removed from reality

 

[Riverbank]

Muslim majority countries have literally banned the burqa before as well, but if someone from New Jersey says it's islamophobia then it must be true