NEUTRON Posted October 31 Posted October 31 She didnt switch up her stance. Securing the border and Trumps "wall" are 2 different things. 3 9
GraceRandolph Posted October 31 Author Posted October 31 3 minutes ago, NEUTRON said: She didnt switch up her stance. Securing the border and Trumps "wall" are 2 different things. Did you listen to her answer? She criticized Trump for only building 2% of the wall.
DevilsRollTheDice Posted October 31 Posted October 31 Leftists pretending the border isn't a legitimate issue need to get a grip on reality. Public polling is clear. The Daily just did an excellent episode on the history of immigration legislation in the US. I suggest listening to it if you find the Dem shift confusing. Two things can be true. Racism is a factor in many people's opinions on immigration but there are also legitimate social and economic problems caused by the US' current policies. 7 1
NEUTRON Posted October 31 Posted October 31 2 minutes ago, GraceRandolph said: Did you listen to her answer? She criticized Trump for only building 2% of the wall. I listened. She called Trumps vanity project stupid. She never said strengthening the border was stupid. 3
Communion Posted October 31 Posted October 31 (edited) 2 minutes ago, DevilsRollTheDice said: Leftists pretending the border isn't a legitimate issue need to get a grip on reality "Politicians must never influence public opinion. They must only ever react to it as a nebulous force, like someone seeing what the weather will be tomorrow." Wonder how you'd feel if public opinion soured on gay rights. Edited October 31 by Communion 10
Communion Posted October 31 Posted October 31 3 minutes ago, NEUTRON said: I listened. She called Trumps vanity project stupid. She never said strengthening the border was stupid. She's literally running ads that feature the border war and in the clip above praised Obama for building more of the wall than Trump. You don't have to lie about the kind of politician Harris is or the campaign she's running. If you think she should win, you can try promoting any actual good policies you may think she has than lying about the bad ones. 6
DevilsRollTheDice Posted October 31 Posted October 31 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Communion said: "Politicians must never influence public opinion. They must only ever react to it as a nebulous force, like someone seeing what the weather will be tomorrow." Wonder how you'd feel if public opinion soured on gay rights. Girl, you are the most tiresome person on this website. Part of winning an election is listening to the voters whose views you represent. You also conveniently ignored the rest of my comment that points out that those views for many voters are rooted in legitimate and well documented problems. Once again, I suggest listening to The Daily episode as it seems you need more context. Edited October 31 by DevilsRollTheDice 3 1 2
TaggedGalaxy Posted October 31 Posted October 31 And what are we supposed to do with this information
GraceRandolph Posted October 31 Author Posted October 31 9 minutes ago, DevilsRollTheDice said: Leftists pretending the border isn't a legitimate issue need to get a grip on reality. Public polling is clear. The Daily just did an excellent episode on the history of immigration legislation in the US. I suggest listening to it if you find the Dem shift confusing. Two things can be true. Racism is a factor in many people's opinions on immigration but there are also legitimate social and economic problems caused by the US' current policies. Kamala can present a comprehensive plan on immigration reform without capitulating to right-wing framing on the issue and literally praising Trump's ideas. 1
Princess Aurora Posted October 31 Posted October 31 (edited) In my opinion, border security in the US is reasonable since weapons are legal and mental health seems to be a huge problem as well over there. However, there should be other solutions, such as creating deals and helping other countries fix their internal issues, and no, not in a colonial/imperialist way. Edited October 31 by Princess Aurora
polygon Posted October 31 Posted October 31 11 minutes ago, DevilsRollTheDice said: Leftists pretending the border isn't a legitimate issue need to get a grip on reality. Public polling is clear. The Daily just did an excellent episode on the history of immigration legislation in the US. I suggest listening to it if you find the Dem shift confusing. Two things can be true. Racism is a factor in many people's opinions on immigration but there are also legitimate social and economic problems caused by the US' current policies.
State of Grace. Posted October 31 Posted October 31 12 minutes ago, DevilsRollTheDice said: Part of winning an election is listening to the voters whose views you represent. Interesting. So why is Kamala pandering to "moderate" Republicans instead of listening to her base's views and opinions re: Palestine/Israel, healthcare, etc? 8
Communion Posted October 31 Posted October 31 1 minute ago, DevilsRollTheDice said: Girl, you are the most tiresome person on this website. Part of winning an election is listening to a the voters whose views you represent. You also conveniently ignored the rest of my comment that points out that those views for many voters are rooted in legitimate and well documented problem I'm sorry but this ideological centrism is tired. There's room to respect it when you put in effort to do research as you will sometimes do but you're objectively off-base here about a subject that myself and others have very much discussed on here for days with far more research and care for the subject than you're displaying here. I have dozens of post with resources if you would like to inform yourself better, but the reality of the situation is objectively: - Border crossings almost became non-existant in the wake of COVID. There were very little people coming in and out of the country during COVID. - Even as COVID wound down, Biden kept in place Trump policies that were eventually found to be illegal like Remain in Mexico and Title 42 that again severely dwindled the number of people coming into the country undocumented. - Any surge in the past year of crossings comes from the added funnel of Dems again even further restricting via conservative policies what type of migrants can apply for asylum and what is a valid port of entry (another illegal decision at odds with existing US law), on top of America's economy having the greatest COVID recovery in the world. Anti-migrant sentiment during Biden's presidency began to surge even before crossings increased post-COVID. There is no real correlation between anti-migrant sentiment and influx of migration. There is no material basis to this idea that people's hatred of migrants is rooted in real, tangible suffering caused by migrants because there's no evidence of harm that exists caused by this type of undocumented migration. What happened was Dems did not have the commitment nor political will to address inflation from COVID and corporate price gouging via progressive answers. Instead of bucking fiscal conservatives, Dems either pretended inflation wasn't real to those suffering (giving room for Republicans to blame that pain on immigration) or let conservatives inflict pain on the economy via increasing interest rates and aiming for high unemployment. Biden was taking cues from Larry Summers of all people. So yes. What you're advocating for is letting racism decide policy. Even when that racism is at odds with reality. Pointing to a podcast without any coherent argument is posturing. You're not saying anything and I have to doubt whatever you listened to what worth while given you somehow walk away from it not viewing American immigration policy not as broken due to Dems and Republicans but somehow an imagined sense of suffering by undocumented immigrants that doesn't exist in material reality. There is no actual reality where an undocumented migrant is taking resources or opportunities away from a poor citizen. America has one of the harshest immigration systems in the world outside of something as progressive as birthright citizenship. Attempts to make it harsher is actually NOT what voters want, as polling showing that voters wanting "law and order at the border" also shows most voters think nearly all undocumented migrants should get to become citizens even if they came here illegally: 5
DevilsRollTheDice Posted October 31 Posted October 31 2 minutes ago, State of Grace. said: Interesting. So why is Kamala pandering to "moderate" Republicans instead of listening to her base's views and opinions re: Palestine/Israel, healthcare, etc? You're literally proving my point, sis. She's running for national office and not in a primary. You can view exit poll data. Biden won by winning moderates and independents at much higher margins than Clinton. 1
Broadcastthatboom13 Posted October 31 Posted October 31 What is this flop thread trying to do. Secure border =/= Building a WALL to keep the MEXICANS out who's also going to PAY for it. 2
ATRL Moderator Bloo Posted October 31 ATRL Moderator Posted October 31 34 minutes ago, NEUTRON said: She didnt switch up her stance. Securing the border and Trumps "wall" are 2 different things. Bragging about building more of Trump's wall than Trump is being in favor of Trump's wall. You can say, "I am voting for Kamala Harris with this knowledge." But being so daft to the point of lying about this obvious flip is not productive. Here's a video showing her obvious flip on the issue of immigration as it relates to Donald Trump (i.e., before being VP and as VP): https://x.com/mazemoore/status/1405705305594470401
ATRL Moderator Bloo Posted October 31 ATRL Moderator Posted October 31 36 minutes ago, NEUTRON said: I listened. She called Trumps vanity project stupid. She never said strengthening the border was stupid. No, she said Trump claiming Mexico was going to pay for it was stupid.
NEUTRON Posted October 31 Posted October 31 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Bloo said: You can say, "I am voting for Kamala Harris with this knowledge." Kamala has had my vote since she announced she was running. This is the easiest f**king election and you people are making it into a think piece. The US cannot afford another 4 years of Trump/Republican led madness--the end. Edited October 31 by NEUTRON 1 1
Communion Posted October 31 Posted October 31 23 minutes ago, NEUTRON said: Kamala has had my vote since she announced she was running What privilege. 1
ATRL Moderator Bloo Posted October 31 ATRL Moderator Posted October 31 19 minutes ago, NEUTRON said: Kamala has had my vote since she announced she was running. This is the easiest f**king election and you people are making it into a think piece. The US cannot afford another 4 years of Trump/Republican led madness--the end. Again: you can vote for Kamala even if you have criticisms of her. Nowhere did I say that you should not vote for Kamala. I'm simply calling out the practice of lying to cover Kamala's obvious flip flops is not intellectually honest nor is it helpful. Lying to voters who have actual issues with Kamala that those real issues don't exist wins no new voters. To Kamala's credit, she has done a decent job of learning that finger-wagging at voters isn't productive.
Letters From Adi Posted October 31 Posted October 31 Aunt Kamala gonna out-Trump Trump at this rate lbr First female POTUS and we will have a closet Republican, praise Jesus
DevilsRollTheDice Posted October 31 Posted October 31 (edited) 3 hours ago, Communion said: I have dozens of post with resources if you would like to inform yourself better, but the reality of the situation is objectively: This succinctly sums up the way you engage in debate. You perceive your own oversimplifications of complex issues to be "objective reality." I commend your steadfastness, but you never recognize that you might be lacking important context or that someone else might have something to add to the conversation. You don't participate in good faith debate, you've already drawn your own conclusions and treat them as objective reality which is an extremely intellectually dishonest way to engage. I promise that you haven't discovered the secret objectively correct answer about every political issue. 3 hours ago, Communion said: There is no material basis to this idea that people's hatred of migrants is rooted in real, tangible suffering caused by migrants because there's no evidence of harm that exists caused by this type of undocumented migration. Immigration is an enormously complex issue. Experts and statisticians who do this for a living acknowledge the difficultly in determining cause and effect when it comes to immigration and the economy/worker wages. You can find data to support both claims. Other aspects of this discussion are more clear cut. Cities across the US are currently overwhelmed trying to manage an extremely large influx of migrants. This affects everything from housing to medical care. School systems are also struggling. As others have pointed out, you can never cede an inch during any discussion. In my original post, I agreed that racism plays a major factor in US attitudes toward immigration. It is not the only factor. I will happily admit that this issue is extraordinarily complicated. I also think that it is a failing of Republicans AND Democrats. I've provided other sources in this response, but I still recommend listening to The Daily's great reporting on this issue. It delves into the legislative history of immigration in the US and covers how legislation intended to fix racist immigration laws in the 20th century created a cascade of unintended consequences. I am personally very pro-immigration. I also recognize that there are drawbacks to our current immigration policy. Democrats tried to pass compressive immigration reform recently but were blocked by congressional Republicans. I'm not saying that bill is perfect either, but your insistence on basically implying that anyone who disagrees with you is objectively wrong or otherwise ontologically evil makers it very difficult to engage. Edited October 31 by DevilsRollTheDice
If U Seek Amy Posted October 31 Posted October 31 She can build it or don't. I don't really care. Already voted and I would vote again if I could! The border is not at all near the top of my list of concerns
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