ATRL Administrator Ryan Posted October 12 ATRL Administrator Posted October 12 21 minutes ago, Communion said: "I help make the sausage so I can defend what's inside of it and dismiss that people don't like what is in it." You're being silly. You're not taking to a random twitter user. You're talking to someone who deeply also understands politics. You're pivoting to some odd idea of credentials yet such doesn't address the criticism - that this is awful campaigning strategy. Again, the actual data we have shows voters are not compelled by claims of bipartisanship. Polarization means voters are not moved by endorsements or alliance with political forces they hold deeply negative views of and whom they blame for their suffering. We should also talk about how most political institutions have low approvals due to the gridlock caused due to donors and those on the hill demanding bipartisanship always be met but that's another convo. You're trying - whether intentionally or by mistake - to conflate working governance with bipartisanship. Of course we need working governance. Harris should run on the reality that we don't have such because of Republican insanity. Walz' "they are weird" message resonated for this reason. She's now pivoting due to her right wing advisors from calling out this weirdness to defending it and championing it. You’re right, Communion. You always are. 🙄
Princess Aurora Posted October 12 Posted October 12 27 minutes ago, Communion said: Actually most Dem voters don't want a candidate to compromise with Republicans. And don't you think it's a big issue? This is dangerous AF. Republicans need to stop with McCarthyism and reject the extremists in their own parties. The Dems can also follow suit. There needs to be a reducation in the US system about society as a whole not only in politics. If it keeps going like this, there'll be a civil war between the two parties in the long term. Some people say they're both capitalists but ideology can also lead to big conflicts. 1 1
Communion Posted October 12 Author Posted October 12 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Ryan said: You're right, Communion. You always are. 🙄 You can't scapegoat someone just because they have no issue being a loud voice and risking being wrong for what they know is right. It's not about if I'm right or wrong. You're actually arguing that most Dem voters are wrong, that the data being cited that shows Dems do not want compromise with Republicans is wrong, and that the genuine negative reaction felt by most progressive Harris supporters online to the tweet is wrong. How come it's always the powerful and privileged politicians that get to be right and never the marginalized voters Dems take for granted? Edited October 12 by Communion
Communion Posted October 12 Author Posted October 12 13 minutes ago, Princess Aurora said: And don't you think it's a big issue? This is dangerous AF. Sure. Republicans should end polarization by abandoning their extremist beliefs and supporting deeply popular progressive policies supported by a majority of American voters like: Medicare For All Free college and trade school for all Giving all undocumented migrants a legal pathway to citizenship Ending America's funding of war that kills 300k+. You don't get to Congress passing these policies a clear majority of Americans want when the Democratic candidate - ill-advised by right-wing advisors - says Republicans are actually right when they reject these popular, common sense policies. Harris is being advised by people who think Republicans "make points" on trans points: 2
noodlelymph Posted October 12 Posted October 12 1 hour ago, Ryan said: There are actually normal republicans who exist who aren't far right. The idea that having a bipartisan panel that can help get things done is not a bad thing. The fact that some people take it as such is everything wrong. It actually used to be very normal for GOP admins to have Dems in their cabinet and vice versa. The "normal" republicans you speak of are out here pushing horrendous tax cuts, defunding social security and Medicare/Medicaid, and pushing for war with Iran…. Be Forreal… 3
bad guy Posted October 12 Posted October 12 While this appears to be in good faith, this also means that any sort of progressive legislation is not going to happen. This will be a return to a moderate-policies-presidency (ineffective) in an attempt to clean up Trump's far-right influences. Problem is…Biden also ran on this and, well we know how that turned out Working together is fine when it's actually for the needs of the people, but in this current system that isn't the case. Ugh. I so badly wish any Democrat would come forward for overturning Citizens United and press her on this issue. It's seriously the only way the government can actually go back to being somewhat functional.
noodlelymph Posted October 12 Posted October 12 1 hour ago, Princess Aurora said: Politics is about compromise. Unfortunately, the US isn't a progressive country (people are way more religious than my country Italy which hosts the Vatican just saying), and in order not to get an idiot like Trumpet, sacrifices must be made. Furthermore, Political polarization needs to stop because it's normalizing political violence and damaging the US institutions. You don't compromise with folks actively eroding these institutions you speak of and taking away your rights… this is why the Dems have lurched to the right on economic issues 1
ATRL Administrator Ryan Posted October 12 ATRL Administrator Posted October 12 27 minutes ago, Communion said: You can't scapegoat someone just because they have no issue being a loud voice and risking being wrong for what they know is right. It's not about if I'm right or wrong. You're actually arguing that most Dem voters are wrong, that the data being cited that shows Dems do not want compromise with Republicans is wrong, and that the genuine negative reaction felt by most progressive Harris supporters online to the tweet is wrong. How come it's always the powerful and privileged politicians that get to be right and never the marginalized voters Dems take for granted? I’m literally not making that argument tho? All I said is this used to be normal and that bipartisanship isn’t a bad thing. 1
ATRL Administrator Ryan Posted October 12 ATRL Administrator Posted October 12 11 minutes ago, noodlelymph said: The "normal" republicans you speak of are out here pushing horrendous tax cuts, defunding social security and Medicare/Medicaid, and pushing for war with Iran…. Be Forreal… Ok.
45seconds Posted October 12 Posted October 12 2 hours ago, Ryan said: There are actually normal republicans who exist who aren't far right. The idea that having a bipartisan panel that can help get things done is not a bad thing. The fact that some people take it as such is everything wrong. It actually used to be very normal for GOP admins to have Dems in their cabinet and vice versa. I am baffled at the responses in here. A center left and right council is a bad thing? Because…she's being cooperative with members of a legislative body that represent half the country? 2 1 2
Armani? Posted October 12 Posted October 12 33 minutes ago, Ryan said: Ok. What do you think is the policy agenda of "normal" Republicans?
ATRL Administrator Ryan Posted October 12 ATRL Administrator Posted October 12 3 minutes ago, Armani? said: What do you think is the policy agenda of "normal" Republicans? Every republican supports those things. I was wrong to say there are “normal” republicans. All are evil.
ATRL Moderator Bloo Posted October 12 ATRL Moderator Posted October 12 3 hours ago, Bosque said: Progressives: I will never ever vote for Killer Kamala, a vote for her is a vote for genocide, I will never compromise my morals. Hopefully Jill Stein makes history by denying her Michigan and thus the presidency. Kamala Harris: Okay, I will reach out to independents, non-voters and centrists who think Trump is repugnant and could be won over to my side, just like my running mate Joe Biden did successfully in 2020. Progressives: Progressives: “If we want to beat Trump, we should replace Biden with Kamala and hope she runs a smarter campaign.” Partisans: “No, we can’t do that. We gotta stick with Biden.” — I love how this part of the story is conveniently ignored. Progressives were the ones actually pushing for Kamala and replacing Biden before the debate with Trump because we knew he had no shot. Kamala choosing to run a terrible campaign and us calling it out is just being honest. If you go to the progressive independent news channels, you’ll see the vast majority of them are vying for Kamala to win. This is a deeply unfair, baseless characterization. —— On the broader conversation about compromise and bipartisanship, it’s important to note compromises can only work if both sides are reciprocally invested in it. There is no compromise between “climate change is real” and “climate change is a hoax”. There’s no middle ground there. Contrived centrism is not productive or helpful and the Republican Party is not interested in helping the American People. Republican voters? Sure. I agree there are well-intentioned Republican voters that just disagree and you can speak to in good faith. Republican politicians? No. They are funded to benefit corporations at the expense of the American people (this isn’t untrue of Democrats either, but the Republicans do it a more extreme extent). To that end, calling for compromise here and valuing it above all is setting up the next villain, the next Joe Manchin/Sinema, etc. to justify lack of progress. 2
Princess Aurora Posted October 12 Posted October 12 1 hour ago, noodlelymph said: You don't compromise with folks actively eroding these institutions you speak of and taking away your rights… this is why the Dems have lurched to the right on economic issues Well. The thing is this. You need to get rid of those trying to take down institutions. Also, the sad thing isn't that everything isn't in black and white. There were some Dems siding with Reps trying to stop certain policies from passing in Congress that were proposed by Biden. You gotta remember lobbying is a big issue in the US. The current GOP went off the rails and must be fixed If you want things to get done. Of course, I'm not a political analyst but some stuff is pretty obvious.
wastedpotential Posted October 12 Posted October 12 I struggle with the "bipartisanship is bad because the other side is evil" argument because like... what else can be done? Republicans hold abhorrent beliefs that I disagree with at every level, but there are still 70 million of them that we have to cohabitate with for the time being, and peaceful concession and cooperation is better than the alternative It's not beneficial to anyone (least of all the Democrats and those to their left) to reach a point of complete noncooperation between the parties. The Republican coalition includes the overwhelming majority of police officers, soldiers/veterans, farmers, oil/nat gas producers, landowners, factory owners and on and on (and they're also responsible for the overwhelming majority of all live births in the US these days so like... give it 20 years and see where things stand). Hell, the Democrats have basically intentionally excised out every non-minority gun owner at this point The end result of neither side being willing to cooperate is some form of civil dissolution coupled with (hopefully limited) internecine violence, and assuming the overwhelmingly conservative judiciary doesn't intervene, that's an environment in which the Republicans will succeed just by sheer force 1
ClashAndBurn Posted October 12 Posted October 12 3 hours ago, bad guy said: While this appears to be in good faith, this also means that any sort of progressive legislation is not going to happen. This will be a return to a moderate-policies-presidency (ineffective) in an attempt to clean up Trump's far-right influences. Problem is…Biden also ran on this and, well we know how that turned out Working together is fine when it's actually for the needs of the people, but in this current system that isn't the case. Ugh. I so badly wish any Democrat would come forward for overturning Citizens United and press her on this issue. It's seriously the only way the government can actually go back to being somewhat functional. Democrats have much more donor cash flowing to them nowadays. They're the current beneficiaries of Citizens United, with Kamala having over a billion dollars, so gutting it right now would be stupid for them to call for. Especially since it'll be exclusively beneficial to establishment Dems while Progressives will be even more shut out than before
Communion Posted October 13 Author Posted October 13 8 hours ago, 45seconds said: A center-left and right council The blatant modifier here and not even realizing how it discredits you. Genuinely reaffirms my belief that liberalism is rooted in a hatred of poor people.
45seconds Posted October 13 Posted October 13 (edited) 1 hour ago, Communion said: The blatant modifier here and not even realizing how it discredits you. Genuinely reaffirms my belief that liberalism is rooted in a hatred of poor people. Center-left and center right? Maybe I worded in a way you cannot understand? Moderates on both sides exist. Your entire response being about semantics is hilarious to me. You live in a country where there are tens of millions of people to the right of you. Whether you like it or not, they are also citizens. So either you find common ground with the ones you can do pass legislation or ***** online. One of those is easier and it's the one one where you get to grandstand. Edited October 13 by 45seconds
Communion Posted October 13 Author Posted October 13 Just now, 45seconds said: Center-left and center right? Maybe I worded in a way you cannot understand? Moderates on both sides exist. Your entire response being about semantics is hilarious to me. There is no mystical center on the vast majority of issues. And Dems very well know this - and campaign on this - when they find an issue that they can milk. What do "center-right" abortion policies look like in practice? 6 week abortion bans? Defending harsh restrictions by offering rape exceptions? But Dems know they are going strong with female voters by debunking that these alleged centrist positions are just as radical once in practice and are running on a position of not compromising with the GOP. Voters are not even ideological. Asking them to discern left/center/right policies will be incoherent. Voters say single payer healthcare is both radically liberal of a policy yet also something they want.
45seconds Posted October 13 Posted October 13 (edited) 1 hour ago, Communion said: There is no mystical center on the vast majority of issues. And Dems very well know this - and campaign on this - when they find an issue that they can milk. What do "center-right" abortion policies look like in practice? 6 week abortion bans? Defending harsh restrictions by offering rape exceptions? But Dems know they are going strong with female voters by debunking that these alleged centrist positions are just as radical once in practice and are running on a position of not compromising with the GOP. Voters are not even ideological. Asking them to discern left/center/right policies will be incoherent. Voters say single payer healthcare is both radically liberal of a policy yet also something they want. It is like arguing with a brick wall. And like a user said above - you're right in your mind and so to even talk about it is straight up pointless. So get ready to be mad, grandstand and complain for the rest of your life. It'll be the same for the far right as well, so you'll at least have company. Edited October 13 by 45seconds
GraceRandolph Posted November 11 Posted November 11 On 10/12/2024 at 11:12 AM, Bosque said: Progressives: I will never ever vote for Killer Kamala, a vote for her is a vote for genocide, I will never compromise my morals. Hopefully Jill Stein makes history by denying her Michigan and thus the presidency. Kamala Harris: Okay, I will reach out to independents, non-voters and centrists who think Trump is repugnant and could be won over to my side, just like my running mate Joe Biden did successfully in 2020. Progressives: If only those Independents, non-voters and centrists showed up at the polls 1 1 1
Virgos Groove Posted November 11 Posted November 11 On 10/12/2024 at 5:49 PM, family.guy123 said: maybe this will encourage voters to step outside and have conversations with their neighbours Yeah, the Dem and MAGA electorate can bond over how much they hate Liz Cheney and her father, who ended his term with a 13% approval rating.
family.guy123 Posted November 11 Posted November 11 (edited) 3 hours ago, Virgos Groove said: Yeah, the Dem and MAGA electorate can bond over how much they hate Liz Cheney and her father, who ended his term with a 13% approval rating. I'm not sure tbh, but I'll take your word for it. Edited November 11 by family.guy123
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