Thesedays Posted October 11 Posted October 11 On 10/8/2024 at 12:49 PM, Bosque said: Sounds like communists and Nazis are both bad, more news at 12 Can't wait till you found out who fought against the nazis. 2 1
Thesedays Posted October 11 Posted October 11 (edited) On 10/8/2024 at 9:52 PM, NewStanner said: It's possible to check recent comments from an user without making it to the visitors list, you think I didn't know that? lmao OT: nazism bad How to spot a completely vapid user: they turn a serious discussion into a stupid fight centered on themselves. This is the type of vapidness that we can expect from someone who equates nazism with communism. Edited October 11 by Thesedays 3 1
Thesedays Posted October 11 Posted October 11 On 10/9/2024 at 6:51 AM, Rosenda said: It has been largely influenced by Hispanic culture (it was the last Spanish colony to get independence iirc), which is notoriously open minded and progressive. LMAO, imagine being that delulu. Most Latin countries are homophobic as ****, with few to none LGBT+ legislators.
Virgos Groove Posted October 11 Author Posted October 11 7 hours ago, family.guy123 said: Oh my god. Are you saying the Great Leap Forward was a good thing or a bad thing? Your ability to not answer my question is astounding. I'm not trying to gotcha. I'm trying to understand your point of view. The GLP was a BAD thing. Which part of "famine" did you not understand? It's like I'm talking to a ******* wall.
Rosenda Posted October 11 Posted October 11 6 hours ago, Thesedays said: LMAO, imagine being that delulu. Most Latin countries are homophobic as ****, with few to none LGBT+ legislators. Gay marriage is legal in Mexico, Chile, Colombia, Ecuador, Argentina, Costa Rica, Cuba and Uruguay. Peru, Panama, Nicaragua and Guatemala are subject to the Inter American Court of Human Rights. Now compare that to Eastern Europe, Russia, Middle East, Asia or Africa. Take into account that less developed countries are usually far behind in LGBT rights and progressive policies and you'll see they are not HoMopHobIC aS fUCc!!!! 2
Rosenda Posted October 11 Posted October 11 On 10/9/2024 at 12:03 PM, Virgos Groove said: Arab countries have the exact same views and they were never communist. As I said, it's not something you can divide on a capitalist-socialist basis. Re Cuba: countries like Paraguay or Honduras are also influenced by Hispanic culture, and they're hardly beacons of social progress. Communism doesn't inherently mean homophobia, and capitalism doesn't inherently mean queer acceptance. It's a case-by-case thing. Arab countries are literally theofascist states. More people speak Guarani in Paraguay than Spanish so I dont think they are comparable, same for Bolivia. Honduras is too busy fighting cartels. Anyways, homosexuality was considered a crime punishable by hard labour and jail in the USSR, it was considered unnatural and degenerate behaviour. The mistreatment and dishumanization of gay men was no different in the Soviet Union than it was in Nazi Germany. The only reason communists are linked to homosexuality in the US is because of propaganda spread by Nazi Germany motivated by their obsession with social Darwinism and eugenics, which portrayed the Soviet Union as a weak, deviant state that promoted all things considered wrong with humanity back then. The Soviets did the same thing against the West.
Virgos Groove Posted October 11 Author Posted October 11 (edited) 35 minutes ago, Rosenda said: Arab countries are literally theofascist states. More people speak Guarani in Paraguay than Spanish so I dont think they are comparable, same for Bolivia. Honduras is too busy fighting cartels. Anyways, homosexuality was considered a crime punishable by hard labour and jail in the USSR, it was considered unnatural and degenerate behaviour. The mistreatment and dishumanization of gay men was no different in the Soviet Union than it was in Nazi Germany. The only reason communists are linked to homosexuality in the US is because of propaganda spread by Nazi Germany motivated by their obsession with social Darwinism and eugenics, which portrayed the Soviet Union as a weak, deviant state that promoted all things considered wrong with humanity back then. The Soviets did the same thing against the West. What exactly is your argument? You say communism is inherently homophobic because the USSR was homophobic (which is terrible, but not exceptional, since the Western world was hardly of beacon of queer aceptance either - Federal Germany literally refused to release the gay inmates in Nazi concentration camps). But when I say you can't divide the world in a gay capitalist/homophobic communism axis and provide examples of homophobic capitalist countries and accepting socialist states, your argument is "well, those don't count" or "it's a cultural thing!". This latter being literally MY argument. That you CAN'T label economic systems as homophobic or accepting and therefore your original argument of "communists hate gays!!!" doesn't make sense. Are there communists who hate gays? Yes. Are there communists who accept (or even are) gays? Also yes. And the same thing applies to capitalism. Sorry, but until you provide actual evidence or real-life examples of communism being inherently homophobic, we're ending this discussion here. Edited October 11 by Virgos Groove
Rosenda Posted October 11 Posted October 11 6 minutes ago, Virgos Groove said: What exactly is your argument? You say communism is inherently homophobic because the USSR was homophobic (which is terrible, but not exceptional, since the Western world was hardly of beacon of queer aceptance either - Federal Germany literally refused to release the gay inmates in Nazi concentration camps). But when I say you can't divide the world in a gay capitalist/homophobic communism axis and provide examples of homophobic capitalist countries and accepting socialist states, your argument is "well, those don't count" or "it's a cultural thing!". This latter being literally MY argument. That you CAN'T label economic systems as homophobic or accepting and therefore your original argument of "communists hate gays!!!" doesn't make sense. Are there communists who hate gays? Yes. Are there communists who accept (or even are) gays? Also yes. And the same thing applies to capitalism. Sorry, but until you provide actual evidence or real-life examples of communism being inherently homophobic, we're ending this discussion here. My point is Communism is as bad as fascism. This comparison was made because they are opposing ideologies with more things in common than most people think. Hating gays was one of those things. I NEVER said Capitalism = sexual tolerance. I only mentioned capitalism in my og post because the user I was quoting literally said fascism is capitalism in its truest form (which isn't even true lmao). You bringing up Cuba as an example when it's literally the ONE exception to the rule is what makes no sense. Try a different former or current communist country. Go look up Marx and Stalin opinions on homosexuality, the laws promulgated in the Soviet Union about moral behaviour, the thousands of executions and forced labour punishments against gay people during the Communist era. Isn't that enough proof? Like... Anyways, I think we are kinda making the same point. I agree it's a cultural thing, but countries with a communist past are all highly homophobic (NOT CUBA!!!) nowadays. You could blame religion for that in the case of Eastern Europe or Russia, but it doesn't apply to China, which is largely atheist but it's too homophobic af. 1 1 3
Virgos Groove Posted October 11 Author Posted October 11 3 minutes ago, Rosenda said: My point is Communism is as bad as fascism. This comparison was made because they are opposing ideologies with more things in common than most people think. Not true at all. The idea of communism and Nazism being comparable is recent and revisionist. Socialist states committed crimes and deserve to be judged for it, but Nazism was on a whole another level. 11 minutes ago, Rosenda said: I only mentioned capitalism in my og post because the user I was quoting literally said fascism is capitalism in its truest form (which isn't even true lmao). It is. Read 'Blackshirts and Reds'. 4 minutes ago, Rosenda said: You bringing up Cuba as an example when it's literally the ONE exception to the rule is what makes no sense. Try a different former or current communist country. The GDR was, compared to both capitalist countries and other Soviet countries, quite accepting. They stopped enforcing gay bans in the 50s and even had gay groups, pro-queer court rulings, etc. Obviously, things were far from perfect, but change doesn't happen overnight. The USSR did oppress gay people, but it was the 1930s. Capitalist countries were doing the same thing. Does that excuse it and make it okay? Absolutely not, but it's important to contextualize it Nowadays, there are only 5 socialist states, so we can't make complete averiguations, but there are plenty of socialist and communist parties who support queer rights (MORENA, communist parties in France, Spain and Portugal, the EFF in South Africa). There are also many who don't and hold regressive views (KKE in Greece, KPRF in Russia). 4 minutes ago, Rosenda said: Go look up Marx and Stalin opinions on homosexuality, the laws promulgated in the Soviet Union about moral behaviour, the thousands of executions and forced labour punishments against gay people during the Communist era. Isn't that enough proof? Like... I simply don't care what two men from the 1800s and 1900s think about homossexuality. This is not religion. Marx and Stalin are appreciated for the contributions they made to socialist theory, but they're humans at the end of the day. Their words are not scripture and their personal views do not dictate an entire ideology. 3
Rosenda Posted October 11 Posted October 11 (edited) 3 hours ago, Virgos Groove said: Not true at all. The idea of communism and Nazism being comparable is recent and revisionist. Socialist states committed crimes and deserve to be judged for it, but Nazism was on a whole another level. It is. Read 'Blackshirts and Reds'. The GDR was, compared to both capitalist countries and other Soviet countries, quite accepting. They stopped enforcing gay bans in the 50s and even had gay groups, pro-queer court rulings, etc. Obviously, things were far from perfect, but change doesn't happen overnight. The USSR did oppress gay people, but it was the 1930s. Capitalist countries were doing the same thing. Does that excuse it and make it okay? Absolutely not, but it's important to contextualize it Nowadays, there are only 5 socialist states, so we can't make complete averiguations, but there are plenty of socialist and communist parties who support queer rights (MORENA, communist parties in France, Spain and Portugal, the EFF in South Africa). There are also many who don't and hold regressive views (KKE in Greece, KPRF in Russia). I simply don't care what two men from the 1800s and 1900s think about homossexuality. This is not religion. Marx and Stalin are appreciated for the contributions they made to socialist theory, but they're humans at the end of the day. Their words are not scripture and their personal views do not dictate an entire ideology. 1. Communism and Nazism are relatively recent. So yes it's a recent idea lmao. They are comparable because as I said they have more in common than they are different: Both incorporate dictatorships - one party states, both prioritised collectivism over individualism for the "common good" of the country, both supported land reforms and the nationalization of big industries (communists actually nationalized ALL industries tho), both hated minorities and homosexuals... Hitler was against liberalism and parliamentarism. I could go on and on and on. 2. It is not. See point 1. Well! Actually, the biggest inspiration behind Hitler's ****** up ideology was America's [the greatest nation in the world] "manifest destiny" and Jim Crow laws. I guess we can say he was partly influenced by the most capitalist country on Earth, yeah, but definitely Nazism is not "Capitalism in its truest form", whatever tf that means. 3. We are comparing Nazism and Communism. It's the whole point of the conversation. Nazis came to power in the 30s and were defeated in the 40s, so "contextualizing" is not important. Persecution and massacring of gay people in the USSR happened at the same time in Nazi Germany. Idgaf if communists stopped doing that **** in the 50s, right when the Western world had already decriminalized homosexuality and Nazism had been dead for over a decade. It's not relevant to this conversation. 4. There are far right parties in Europe that support gay rights. Matter of fact "defending the gays [and women] against Muslim immigrants" is such an overused rethoric employed by far right parties in Europe to get votes. So what's your point? 5. Well now you don't care what the two most important figures in the history of Communism and what the literal creator of this ideology had to say about the gays. I guess we could apply this to the Nazis too. "Hitler's personal views do not dictate Nazi ideology as a whole!!!!" Ridiculous. This conversation ends here, you are grasping for straws at this point. Communism and Nazism are both as bad and destructive. End of. Edited October 11 by Rosenda 1 2
Virgos Groove Posted October 11 Author Posted October 11 (edited) 52 minutes ago, Rosenda said: 1. Communism and Nazism are relatively recent. So yes it's a recent idea lmao. They are comparable because as I said they have more in common than they are different: Both incorporate dictatorships - one party states, both prioritised collectivism over individualism for the "common good" of the country, both supported land reforms and the nationalization of big industries (communists actually nationalized ALL industries tho), both hated minorities and homosexuals... Hitler was against liberalism and parliamentarism. I could go on and on and on. ??? Nazi Germany basically crafted privatization as we know it today. Quote The first mass privatization of state property occurred in Nazi Germany between 1933 and 1937: "It is a fact that the government of the National Socialist Party sold off public ownership in several state-owned firms in the middle of the 1930s. The firms belonged to a wide range of sectors: steel, mining, banking, local public utilities, shipyard, ship-lines, railways, etc. In addition to this, delivery of some public services produced by public administrations prior to the 1930s, especially social services and services related to work, was transferred to the private sector, mainly to several organizations within the Nazi Party." x "Mass nationalizations in Nazi Germany" ghjghrj girl read a book 52 minutes ago, Rosenda said: 2. It is not. See point 1. Well! Actually, the biggest inspiration behind Hitler's ****** up ideology was America's [the greatest nation in the world] "manifest destiny" and Jim Crow laws. I guess we can say he was partly influenced by the most capitalist country on Earth, yeah, but definitely Nazism is not "Capitalism in its truest form", whatever tf that means. "Fascism being capitalism laid bare" is not some ridiculous idea. Plenty of writers on the left have talked about it. The class interests they protect is precisely the difference between fascism and communism. Quote During the 1920s, the Nazi Sturmabteilung or SA, the brown-shirted storm troopers, subsidized by business, were used mostly as an antilabor paramilitary force whose function was to terrorize workers and farm laborers. By 1930, most of the tycoons had concluded that the Weimar Republic no longer served their needs and was too accommodating to the working class. They greatly increased their subsidies to Hitler, propelling the Nazi party onto the national stage. Business tycoons supplied the Nazis with generous funds for fleets of motor cars and loudspeakers to saturate the cities and villages of Germany, along with funds for Nazi party organizations, youth groups, and paramilitary forces. In the July 1932 campaign, Hitler had sufficient funds to fly to fifty cities in the last two weeks alone. (Blackshirts and Reds) Quote Is fascism merely a dictatorial force in the service of capitalism? That may not be all it is, but that certainly is an important part of fascism's raison d'être, the function Hitler himself kept referring to when he talked about saving the industrialists and bankers from Bolshevism. It is a subject that deserves far more attention than it has received. While the fascists might have believed they were saving the plutocrats from the Reds, in fact the revolutionary Left was never strong enough to take state power in either Italy or Germany. Popular forces, however, were strong enough to cut into profit rates and interfere with the capital accumulation process. This frustrated capitalism's attempts to resolve its internal contradictions by shifting more and more of its costs onto the backs of the working populace. Revolution or no revolution, this democratic working-class resistance was troublesome to the moneyed interests. If fascism were such a threat to capitalism, it wouldn't have gotten so much praise by American corporate newspapers in the 30s. And communism does not defend oppressing minorities, wtf? Lenin was one of the biggest defenders of Polish and Ukrainian self-determination. It's why Putin hates him. Cuba secured human rights for Afro Cubans. The socialist movement in places like Bolivia and Brazil is linked to indigenous rights movements. The CPUSA was defending Black civil rights in the Jim Crow era. 52 minutes ago, Rosenda said: Idgaf if communists stopped doing that **** in the 50s, right when the Western world had already decriminalized homosexuality and Nazism had been dead for over a decade. It's not relevant to this conversation. ??? West Germany decriminalized homossexuality in 1969. Britain, Portugal and Ireland took until the 80s and 90s. Are those not Western countries? And then you have Poland, which became communist in the mid-40s but kept the gay decriminalization of the 1930s. If communism was inherently homophobic, surely they would've made it illegal. It's crazy how you'll make a claim (like "communists are inherently homophobic" or "the USSR was exceptional in its treatment of gay people while the West was accepting of them") and when you get proved wrong, your response is "well, that doesn't count!!". 52 minutes ago, Rosenda said: 4. There are far right parties in Europe that support gay rights. Matter of fact "defending the gays [and women] against Muslim immigrants" is such an overused rethoric employed by far right parties in Europe to get votes. So what's your point? No, there aren't. There are far-right parties who vote against gay and trans rights while using them to spread Islamophobic dogwhistles. Meanwhile, the leftist parties I mentioned actually voted in favor of gay rights legislation, fought for gay marriage, etc. To try to compare charlatans like Geert Wilders to the communist and socialist parties who have been supporting gay rights since the 80s and 90s is... morally disingenuous. I know you'll say "well, okay, they vote for gay legislation and work with gay organizers, but they don't realllyyyyy mean it", but that kind of logic has been clocked ages ago: Quote If communists in the United States played an important role struggling for the rights of workers, the poor, African-Americans, women, and others, this was only their guileful way of gathering support among disfranchised groups and gaining power for themselves. How one gained power by fighting for the rights of powerless groups was never explained. What we are dealing with is a nonfalsifiable orthodoxy, so assiduously marketed by the ruling interests that it affected people across the entire political spectrum. 52 minutes ago, Rosenda said: 5. Well now you don't care what the two most important figures in the history of Communism and what the literal creator of this ideology had to say about the gays. I guess we could apply this to the Nazis too. "Hitler's personal views do not dictate Nazi ideology as a whole!!!!" Funny you should mention Hitler since his case is inverse to that of Stalin. Hitler tolerated Roehm's homossexuality at first, but that didn't stop his ideology from promoting the extermination of gay and trans people. Marx and Stalin were homophobic (like most people in the 19th and 20th century), but the GDR still advanced gay rights for queer East Germans and now plenty of communist and socialist parties defend queer rights. In fact, the gay movement and the fight against AIDS are directly linked to leftist politics. See: "Lesbians and Gays Support the Miners" in Britain. 52 minutes ago, Rosenda said: Communism and Nazism are both as bad and destructive. End of. This is "double genocide" bullshit propagated by Eastern European neo-nazis. Please familiarize yourself with the nonsense you spew: On 6/13/2023 at 2:34 AM, Communion said: The Neocons and Holocaust Revisionism in Eastern Europe Jewish Currents, July 23 2014, Dovid Katz https://jewishcurrents.org/neocons-holocaust-revisionism-eastern-europe https://jewishcurrents.org/neocons-holocaust-revisionism-eastern-europe-continued When "Putin" Becomes an Excuse for Hitler-Glorification Jewish Currents, October 10 2016, Dovid Katz https://jewishcurrents.org/when-putin-becomes-an-excuse-for-hitler-glorification The "Double Genocide" Theory Jewish Currents, November 22 2017, Dovid Katz https://jewishcurrents.org/the-double-genocide-theory Edited October 11 by Virgos Groove 3
Rosenda Posted October 11 Posted October 11 1 hour ago, Virgos Groove said: ??? Nazi Germany basically crafted privatization as we know it today. "Mass nationalizations in Nazi Germany" ghjghrj girl read a book "Fascism being capitalism laid bare" is not some ridiculous idea. Plenty of writers on the left have talked about it. The class interests they protect is precisely the difference between fascism and communism. If fascism were such a threat to capitalism, it wouldn't have gotten so much praise by American corporate newspapers in the 30s. And communism does not defend oppressing minorities, wtf? Lenin was one of the biggest defenders of Polish and Ukrainian self-determination. It's why Putin hates him. Cuba secured human rights for Afro Cubans. The socialist movement in places like Bolivia and Brazil is linked to indigenous rights movements. The CPUSA was defending Black civil rights in the Jim Crow era. ??? West Germany decriminalized homossexuality in 1969. Britain, Portugal and Ireland took until the 80s and 90s. Are those not Western countries? And then you have Poland, which became communist in the mid-40s but kept the gay decriminalization of the 1930s. If communism was inherently homophobic, surely they would've made it illegal. It's crazy how you'll make a claim (like "communists are inherently homophobic" or "the USSR was exceptional in its treatment of gay people while the West was accepting of them") and when you get proved wrong, your response is "well, that doesn't count!!". No, there aren't. There are far-right parties who vote against gay and trans rights while using them to spread Islamophobic dogwhistles. Meanwhile, the leftist parties I mentioned actually voted in favor of gay rights legislation, fought for gay marriage, etc. To try to compare charlatans like Geert Wilders to the communist and socialist parties who have been supporting gay rights since the 80s and 90s is... morally disingenuous. I know you'll say "well, okay, they vote for gay legislation and work with gay organizers, but they don't realllyyyyy mean it", but that kind of logic has been clocked ages ago: Funny you should mention Hitler since his case is inverse to that of Stalin. Hitler tolerated Roehm's homossexuality at first, but that didn't stop his ideology from promoting the extermination of gay and trans people. Marx and Stalin were homophobic (like most people in the 19th and 20th century), but the GDR still advanced gay rights for queer East Germans and now plenty of communist and socialist parties defend queer rights. In fact, the gay movement and the fight against AIDS are directly linked to leftist politics. See: "Lesbians and Gays Support the Miners" in Britain. This is "double genocide" bullshit propagated by Eastern European neo-nazis. Please familiarize yourself with the nonsense you spew: I ain't got time to dissect your comment piece by piece so I'm going to try to make it clear and answer each of your points separatedly without quoting you, hope it's not too confusing lol: the privatization was "applied within a framework of increasing control of the state over the whole economy through regulation and political interference," as laid out in the 1933 Act for the Formation of Compulsory Cartels, which gave the government a role in regulating and controlling the cartels that had been earlier formed in the Weimar Republic under the Cartel Act of 1923. The rhetoric of the Nazi regime stated that German private companies would be protected and privileged as long as they supported the economic goals of the government—mainly by participating in government contracts for military production—but that they could face severe penalties if they went against the national interest. You read a book baby girl. It was a WAR ECONOMY. Oh my ******* God. The Soviets only supported racial minorities to avoid conflicts within the Union (because all those territories were already part of the Russian Empire and since they had different ethnic backgrounds, religions and languages, it was HARD to integrate them into the Empire), you can see that even in modern ex Soviet states where ethnic tension and border conflicts created by the Soviets still linger to this day. their obvious long term plan was to create a common culture with a common language spoken throughout all socialist states. I can't with this false idolization of the Soviet Union Do you know about Stalin policies in Turkestan, The Caucausus, and basically all Muslim regions of the Soviet Union? Is that considered "defending minorities" according to you? Do you know what happened to tribal leaders and nationalist organizations that tried to stir up revolts in those regions? Yes exactly. Oh right those countries you mentioned decriminalized homosexuality after the Soviets or whatever you just said, right. What about the other 15 countries you chose to ignore? Lmao. There are pro LGBT far right parties in Europe. When it comes to gay and lesbian rights, radical right parties can be divided into two groups. Parties from the Netherlands, Belgium, and northern European countries have invoked the nationalism of gay rights as a club to beat back the Muslim immigrant. Homonationalism has become a successful electoral strategy, which blends support for gay rights with xenophobia and Islamophobia. In contrast, radical right parties in Eastern and Southern Europe have not embraced gay rights. So when it's convenient, capitalism or communism are not related to social aspects like homosexuality and indigenous rights, but now that fits your narrative, socialism is the cause of all that progress. Cultural aspects of those societies have nothing to do with it, right? Oh boy. Not you quoting that nut case user. I'm done. Since it's Friday night and I'm expecting a guy, I will end the conversation here lol. Nice debate, even tho you're terribly wrong and your idolization of the Soviet Union would get you in trouble in a LOOOOT of countries, henny. Americans living in their hyper capitalist country while preaching about communist ideals always strike me as complete ridiculousness. 1 3
Illuminati Posted October 11 Posted October 11 Tired of people inserting their dream scenarios of what communism could have been in their dreamed-up utopia rather than acknowledge the millions and millions of people killed by communist regimes because nazis were slightly worse. 1 7 2
Communion Posted October 12 Posted October 12 (edited) 4 hours ago, Illuminati said: Tired of people inserting their dream scenarios of what communism could have been in their dreamed-up utopia rather than acknowledge the millions and millions of people killed by communist regimes because nazis were slightly worse. This is insane for someone from Lithuania to post given the history of anti-communism used to defend and perpetuate nazism in the nation from WWII to even today... and the exact kind of behavior that makes people skeptical of this very rhetoric. Like some users' great-grandparents very likely participated in hunting down their Jewish neighbors and slaughtering them before German forces could even arrive in the borders of their nation and yet certain ethnic backgrounds are meant to give people an alleged sense of credibility because of this when claiming that actually nazism pales in comparison? It should be material reality - not abstract "lived experience" - that dictates how we reflect on history and the USSR's policy failures and successes, let alone when so much of the lived experiences being told are fables and high-tails that inadvertently praise or excuse the horrors of the nazi regime, coming from people's great-grandparents in places that killed literally 99.9% of their Jewish populations. Edited October 12 by Communion 1 1 4
Communion Posted October 12 Posted October 12 (edited) 6 hours ago, Rosenda said: Not you quoting that nut case user. I'm done. On 6/8/2023 at 8:29 AM, Rosenda said: America is lucky there's an ocean that separates them from Muslim nations Well, that checks out. So much angst and needless discourse all because people's literal nazi great-grandparents somehow walked away from WWII with the only lesson being "the REAL villains with the Soviets". Edited October 12 by Communion 1
Illuminati Posted October 12 Posted October 12 (edited) 5 hours ago, Communion said: This is insane for someone from Lithuania to post given the history of anti-communism used to defend and perpetuate nazism in the nation from WWII to even today... and the exact kind of behavior that makes people skeptical of this very rhetoric. Like some users' great-grandparents very likely participated in hunting down their Jewish neighbors and slaughtering them before German forces could even arrive in the borders of their nation and yet certain ethnic backgrounds are meant to give people an alleged sense of credibility because of this when claiming that actually nazism pales in comparison? It is illegal to use any kind of nazi symbolism in Lithuania or to deny holocaust. Our anti-nazi laws go beyond what you have in the US. Ukraine to this day struggles to have Holodomor even acknowledged in most parts of the world as something that happened, let alone the mass deportations and routine ethnic cleansing the USSR was engaging in, yet you think that we're already at the point where this is the only thing that's being brought up as some plot to deny the Holocaust You guys gaslit yourselves into defending the Ribbentrop-Molotov pact USSR because you can't accept that nightmare dictatorships like the Soviet Union, despite their red flag having a little hammer and sickle on it, committed crimes against humanity. Edited October 12 by Illuminati 3
Communion Posted October 12 Posted October 12 7 minutes ago, Illuminati said: It is illegal to use any kind of nazi symbolism in Lithuania or to deny holocaust. Our anti-nazi laws go beyond what you have in the US. This doesn't convince people of what you hope it does when such laws also bans mentioning the history of Lithuanian partisans in aiding the Nazi regime in slaughtering over 95% of the nation's Jewish population. It's not anti-nazism to make it so you have to refer to nazis as "Lithuanian partisans". The Lithuania government literally still has arrest warrants out for "pro-Soviet partisans" (read: Jewish Holocaust survivors) over the killing of "Lithuanian partisans" (read: Nazi collaborators). It's just objectively ahistorical to deny that Holocaust revisionism and erasure of Jewish suffering is still central Lithuania as a nation even today. 1
Démodé Posted October 12 Posted October 12 22 hours ago, Rosenda said: Arab countries are literally theofascist states. More people speak Guarani in Paraguay than Spanish so I dont think they are comparable, same for Bolivia. Honduras is too busy fighting cartels. Anyways, homosexuality was considered a crime punishable by hard labour and jail in the USSR, it was considered unnatural and degenerate behaviour. The mistreatment and dishumanization of gay men was no different in the Soviet Union than it was in Nazi Germany. The only reason communists are linked to homosexuality in the US is because of propaganda spread by Nazi Germany motivated by their obsession with social Darwinism and eugenics, which portrayed the Soviet Union as a weak, deviant state that promoted all things considered wrong with humanity back then. The Soviets did the same thing against the West. You are illiterate and uninformed. Homosexuality was decriminalised and same sex marriage was legalised in USSR after the Revolution while our precious West was considering it a disease well into the 70s and STILL has legal conversion therapies. The fact that the US instrumentalised Stalin's - awful - regime to portray Communism as the enemy has nothing to do with our discussion. And yes, I would have no problem for convicted nXzis and fascists to break stones and make roads for the rest of us.
VeniceBeach Posted October 12 Posted October 12 10 hours ago, Communion said: This is insane for someone from Lithuania That's not true since every Lithuanian knows history and the Soviet occupation was worse than the Nazi occupation as it lasted literal decades, but you will ignore that and change the subject as usual. Everyone knows about Lithuanians' participation in killing Jews during the war. Still, the topic is about communism so let's see how much destruction it brought to Lithuania. Lithuanian partisans fought for their independence AFTER the war until the mid-1950s, and they were killed and suppressed by the commie occupants. Most of them did not participate in WWII, did not participate in the genocide of the Jews, and avoided any conscription in the forests. So tell me, pathetic Russian tankie, why are you trying to justify the communists and their repression? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_deportations_from_Lithuania Quote Soviet deportations from Lithuania were a series of 35 mass deportations carried out in Lithuania, a country that was occupied as a constituent socialist republic of the Soviet Union, in 1941 and 1945–1952. At least 130,000 people, 70% of them women and children. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithuanian_partisans Quote Lithuanian partisans were partisans who waged guerrilla warfare in Lithuania against the Soviet Union in 1944–1953. An estimated total of 30,000 Lithuanian partisans and their supporters were killed. The Lithuanian partisan war lasted almost for a decade, thus becoming one of the longest partisan wars in Europe. Initially, the Lithuanians greeted the Germans as liberators from the repressive Soviet rule and made plans to reestablish independent Lithuania. However, the attitudes soon changed as the occupation of Lithuania by Nazi Germany continued. Lithuania boycotted German recruitment calls and never had their own Waffen-SS division. 1
Pendulum Posted October 12 Posted October 12 2 hours ago, Démodé said: You are illiterate and uninformed. Homosexuality was decriminalised and same sex marriage was legalised in USSR after the Revolution while our precious West was considering it a disease well into the 70s and STILL has legal conversion therapies. The fact that the US instrumentalised Stalin's - awful - regime to portray Communism as the enemy has nothing to do with our discussion. And yes, I would have no problem for convicted nXzis and fascists to break stones and make roads for the rest of us. The nerve to call somebody illiterate and uninformed when same sex marriage was NEVER legal in the USSR, let alone any post-Soviet country Stalin's policies quite literally equated homosexuality with pedophilia and homosexual acts were criminalised under his rule. It was Khurshchev's Thaw that decriminalised it. Homosexual acts were decriminalised in the Ottoman Empire in the 19th century, ages before most Western countries, but how is the situation regarding queer people in Turkey nowadays? Answer me. 3
VeniceBeach Posted October 12 Posted October 12 2 hours ago, Démodé said: Homosexuality was decriminalised and same sex marriage was legalised in USSR after the Revolution I just noticed it omg Everyone should see this part particularly 1
Bosque Posted October 12 Posted October 12 6 hours ago, Démodé said: You are illiterate and uninformed. Homosexuality was decriminalised and same sex marriage was legalised in USSR after the Revolution while our precious West was considering it a disease well into the 70s and STILL has legal conversion therapies. OH?
Virgos Groove Posted October 12 Author Posted October 12 Members are really out here simping for neo-fascist anti-semitic militias because "at least they fought the commies!!1!1". 4 2
Virgos Groove Posted October 12 Author Posted October 12 10 hours ago, VeniceBeach said: That's not true since every Lithuanian knows history and the Soviet occupation was worse than the Nazi occupation ??? This is straight-up Holocaust denial. 1
VeniceBeach Posted October 12 Posted October 12 33 minutes ago, Virgos Groove said: Members are really out here simping for neo-fascist anti-semitic militias because "at least they fought the commies!!1!1". They fought for their independence since they were illegally occupied by the USSR in 1940. Funny how you mentioned the Molotov pact earlier and forgot to mention that the USSR and Nazi Germany, two totalitarian regimes, divided Eastern Europe between them as well as the fact that the USSR tried to do the same with Finland, but they were satisfied with just the bombing of Helsinki, tens of thousands killed and some new territories due to failures in the war. Now tell me, dumbass from Portugal that knows nothing about Eastern Europe and what it was like to live under a communist regime: which two countries held a joint military parade in Brest in 1939 while the rest of Europe was fighting Nazi Germany? Here's a hint: If siding with Nazis against something makes you a neo-fascist and antisemite, then that's exactly what the Soviet Army was. Exactly!
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