news Victims of Communism memorial: more than half of the names were linked to Nazis

[Vermouth]

1 minute ago, noodlelymph said:

I think it's pretty clear that those with a narrow minded Eurocentric lens (and racialized concept of victimhood) of history care only about the "victims" of communism in Eastern Europe and not the vastly greater number of victims of European/American capitalism across the global south… It is a false equivalency to anyone with (a brain) an understanding of colonial history and it's ramifications and I'm not surprised to see Europeans in this thread continuing to peddle it. 

And how would communism help the Global South?

 

Nearest attempts ongoing include, Cuba, Venezuela, North Korea, and a shout out to Nicaragua.  Nothing Eurocentric there.

 

Not exactly top of desirable places to live are they?  Especially when you consider the trajectories of N and S Korea from the same starting point, or the relative decline of Venezuela in income per head compared with even the rest of S America.

[Communion]

11 minutes ago, Vermouth said:

Especially when you consider the trajectories of N and S Korea from the same starting point,

Feel like South Korea being under the seige of a military dictatorship for decades and doing worse economically than North Korea before being pumped full of foreign dollars - even after the US committed genocide and killed 20% of the North Korean population- is maybe uhh not a good point of reference to start. That no one cares that 1 in 5 North Koreans were murdered by America kind of reiterates the point of these ahistorical death tallies. 

[Vermouth]

10 minutes ago, Communion said:

Feel like South Korea being under the seige of a military dictatorship for decades and doing worse economically than North Korea before being pumped full of foreign dollars - even after the US committed genocide and killed 20% of the North Korean population- is maybe uhh not a good point of reference to start. That no one cares that 1 in 5 North Koreans were murdered by America kind of reiterates the point of these ahistorical death tallies. 

S Korea is now a democracy.

 

It's also massively richer than the North and I'm sure the vast majority of its citizens live better lives than their northern cousins.

 

The Korean War, you may recall, which did cause untold deaths and suffering, was started when the North invaded the South. Oh and the northern leader was the present leader's grandfather, who was the founder of what can be described as a sort of communist monarchy.

 

Look, liberal democracy isn't perfect ( I mean God help us we might get Trump again which will test it to the limits I fear, and there are unfortunately head bangers at the extremes in many countries), but let's not pretend that communism, whenever it's been tried, has ended up in serious oppression and worse quality of life outcomes for the people living under it.

[Virgos Groove]

30 minutes ago, Vermouth said:

And how would communism help the Global South?

 

Nearest attempts ongoing include, Cuba, Venezuela, North Korea, and a shout out to Nicaragua.  Nothing Eurocentric there.

Cuba, despite being under a murderous embargo by the world's biggest superpower, was until recently a far better place to live in than its neighbouring countries, like Haiti, Jamaica, etc. 

 

Venezuela was doing relatively well until the early-10s, when the fall of oil prices, corruption and Western sanctions sent the economy spiraling.

 

Funny how you don't mention China, who lifted over a billion people out of poverty, or Vietnam, that had to rebuild after a 20-year war.

 

I'm not arguing socialist states are perfect or can't be criticized or don't commit crimes, but even the ones that eventually fell managed to massively improve the lives of people.

 

Russia went from a Tsarist autocracy filled with illiteracy, poverty and pogroms to a world superpower that, despite its many disfunctions, managed to give everyone a relatively stable life.

 

China was a land of drug addicted farmers and feudal landlords, where famine was an habitual thing. The Great Leap Forward was the last famine in China and now the country is poised to become the biggest economy in the World.

 

Ukraine took 25 years to recover from the fall of the USSR. 

 

When we talk about socialist nations, the comparison point shouldn't be first-world countries, but other Global South countries. Would you rather be an average citizen in India or China? Haiti or Cuba? I know which one I'd prefer.

[Vermouth]

2 minutes ago, Virgos Groove said:

Cuba, despite being under a murderous embargo by the world's biggest superpower, was until recently a far better place to live in than its neighbouring countries, like Haiti, Jamaica, etc. 

 

Venezuela was doing relatively well until the early-10s, when the fall of oil prices, corruption and Western sanctions sent the economy spiraling.

 

Funny how you don't mention China, who lifted over a billion people out of poverty, or Vietnam, that had to rebuild after a 20-year war.

 

I'm not arguing socialist states are perfect or can't be criticized or don't commit crimes, but even the ones that eventually fell managed to massively improve the lives of people.

 

Russia went from a Tsarist autocracy filled with illiteracy, poverty and pogroms to a world superpower that, despite its many disfunctions, managed to give everyone a relatively stable life.

 

China was a land of drug addicted farmers and feudal landlords, where famine was an habitual thing. The Great Leap Forward was the last famine in China and now the country is poised to become the biggest economy in the World.

 

Ukraine took 25 years to recover from the fall of the USSR. 

 

When we talk about socialist nations, the comparison point shouldn't be first-world countries, but other Global South countries. Would you rather be an average citizen in India or China? Haiti or Cuba? I know which one I'd prefer.

India. There's hope for the future and they let you leave.

 

Deng Xiao Ping ( apologies for the spelling) basically recognised in 1978 that Mao's path had been a total dog's dinner and China has been quietly abandoning communism ever since, and surprise surprise as soon as they loosened the reins the economy took off.

 

I have personally experienced being checked by the police at the very entrance to the aircraft door on the tarmac in Havana just in case I was a Cuban trying to get out.  Marvellous place Cuba, great people. **** system, whatever the daft US policies towards it.

 

What is it about communist states being so paranoid about people leaving? It's almost as if they fear people might vote with their feet given the chance. 

[Virgos Groove]

9 minutes ago, Vermouth said:

India. There's hope for the future and they let you leave.

 

Deng Xiao Ping ( apologies for the spelling) basically recognised in 1978 that Mao's path had been a total dog's dinner and China has been quietly abandoning communism ever since, and surprise surprise as soon as they loosened the reins the economy took off.

 

I have personally experienced being checked by the police at the very entrance to the aircraft door on the tarmac in Havana just in case I was a Cuban trying to get out.  Marvellous place Cuba, great people. **** system, whatever the daft US policies towards it.

 

What is it about communist states being so paranoid about people leaving? It's almost as if they fear people might vote with their feet given the chance. 

China has not abandoned the road to communism. It simply adjusted course after the excesses of the Cultural Revolution, implementing market socialist with heavy control by the State. Not all socialist systems are the same. Yugoslavia's had worker's self-management. the USSR's was state-controlled, China and Vietnam's is adapted to the globalized reality of our time.

 

And what hope is there in India that there isn't in China? 

Edited October 8 by Virgos Groove

[Vermouth]

13 minutes ago, Virgos Groove said:

China has not abandoned the road to communism. It simply adjusted course after the excesses of the Cultural Revolution, implementing market socialist with heavy control by the State. Not all socialist systems are the same. Yugoslavia's had worker's self-management. the USSR's was state-controlled, China and Vietnam's is adapted to the globalized reality of our time.

 

And what hope is there in India that there isn't in China? 

"Adjusted its course".

 

Yeah, right.

(Oh and those "excesses" starved and imprisoned how many millions?)
 

India at least has the hope you can vote your rulers out.  Not much chance of that in Beijing is there?

Edited October 8 by Vermouth

[DAP]

2 hours ago, John Slayne said:

never, capitalists will gladly watch you starve and say it's because you've not pulled yourself up by your bootstraps or something. they don't give a f

 

At least we'll be rewarded with unmarked graves in a rainforest for our service I guess.

 

[Virgos Groove]

2 minutes ago, Vermouth said:

"Adjusted its course".

 

Yeah, right.

(Oh and those "excesses" starved and imprisoned how many millions?)
 

 

About as many as the previous regimes that ruled China, if not less. Or do you think the Qing dinasty and the Warlord Era were Nordic social democracies? 

Edited October 8 by Virgos Groove

[Miracle]

Of course. The "victims of communism" counts, etc are all mostly propaganda.

 

[Vermouth]

1 minute ago, Virgos Groove said:

About as many as the previous regimes that ruled China, if not less. Or do you think the Qing dinasty and the Warlord Era were Nordic social democracies? 

No of course not.

 

But there again the rulers of Scandinavia weren't exactly cuddly teddy bears in the past were they, being Vikings and all that. But by the early 1960's they'd moved on from that a tad unlike the then rulers of China.

[Miracle]

37 minutes ago, Virgos Groove said:

Cuba, despite being under a murderous embargo by the world's biggest superpower, was until recently a far better place to live in than its neighbouring countries, like Haiti, Jamaica, etc. 

 

Venezuela was doing relatively well until the early-10s, when the fall of oil prices, corruption and Western sanctions sent the economy spiraling.

 

Funny how you don't mention China, who lifted over a billion people out of poverty, or Vietnam, that had to rebuild after a 20-year war.

 

I'm not arguing socialist states are perfect or can't be criticized or don't commit crimes, but even the ones that eventually fell managed to massively improve the lives of people.

 

Russia went from a Tsarist autocracy filled with illiteracy, poverty and pogroms to a world superpower that, despite its many disfunctions, managed to give everyone a relatively stable life.

 

China was a land of drug addicted farmers and feudal landlords, where famine was an habitual thing. The Great Leap Forward was the last famine in China and now the country is poised to become the biggest economy in the World.

 

Ukraine took 25 years to recover from the fall of the USSR. 

 

When we talk about socialist nations, the comparison point shouldn't be first-world countries, but other Global South countries. Would you rather be an average citizen in India or China? Haiti or Cuba? I know which one I'd prefer.

China. Cuba. 

[Vermouth]

9 minutes ago, Miracle said:

Of course. The "victims of communism" counts, etc are all mostly propaganda.

 

Details? Or you just throwing that out there for the hell of it because it might look cool to anyone with no historical perspective reading it?
 

The Soviet gulag was imaginary? The starvation of 1930's Ukraine made up?  The bodies at the Berlin Wall were somehow fictitious? Vaclav Havel was imprisoned for bad spelling? The execution of Polish army officers at Katyn never happened?

Edited October 8 by Vermouth

[John Slayne]

1 hour ago, Vermouth said:

Details? Or you just throwing that out there for the hell of it because it might look cool to anyone with no historical perspective reading it?
 

The Soviet gulag was imaginary? The starvation of 1930's Ukraine made up?  The bodies at the Berlin Wall were somehow fictitious? Vaclav Havel was imprisoned for bad spelling? The execution of Polish army officers at Katyn never happened?

Put it this way - the world makes enough food and has enough resources to provide everyone with clean water, shelter, and food. This means that effectively every person dying of starvation or dehydration or lack of shelter is a political choice. The current economic system is not efficient in distributing those essential resources to everyone and therefore is to blame for unnecessary deaths. 

 

Almost 10 million people die of hunger annually, one could easily argue that this is a direct fault of capitalism that incentivizes wasting food to keep prices artificially high in order to maximise profits for shareholders instead of actually just feeding people who are literally starving. 

 

And yet nobody is building 'victims of capitalism' memorials, people barely even talk about the connection between our economic system and its real life outcomes. I am by no means a defender of the USSR or China or East Germany, but to pretend that they are uniquely bad or worse than capitalism just does not add up when you look at the history of exploitation, slavery, and oppression under capitalism. 50 million people continue to live in modern slavery to this day, I'd hardly call that a win for capitalism.

[John Slayne]

3 hours ago, Vermouth said:

They voted the place out of existence at the very first opportunity they got to express an opinion freely.  See also Czechoslovakia, Poland, the Baltics, etc etc 

Also I was born and raised in this region and let me tell you it took those countries 15 years to recover from the fall of socialism and then not long after the economic crisis hit us like a runaway train and most public services (such as healthcare and education) are arguably running worse now that they did before 1989. 

 

Again, that isn't to say I would want to return to the old socialist regime but this idea that things automatically got better after 1989 is just plain wrong. Even if you look at surveys from Czechoslovakia from 1989 and early 1990s, most people were actually in favour of many socialist economic policies, what they wanted to change was to acquire more civic and religious liberties and freedom of movement.

 

What they got was privatisation, price hikes and terrible living conditions. My parents could barely afford to live on their own and they were two full-time employed adults with no children in the 1990s  Things were THAT bad.

[Virgos Groove]

13 minutes ago, NewStanner said:

There are freaking communists on ATRL?

[Communion]

1 hour ago, Vermouth said:

The Soviet gulag was imaginary? The starvation of 1930's Ukraine made up?  The bodies at the Berlin Wall were somehow fictitious?

I would be more sympathetic to the theory that "no, this famine in a pre-industrialized country where famines routinely occurred was actually planned and intentional" if the last year didn't reveal to me the very concerning overlap between those who hold the view that Soviet agricultural policies were not just poorly planned but intentional attempts at eliminating ethnic groups yet who somehow conveniently think carpet bombing residential centers and blowing up water filtration systems in order to kill what is conservatively estimated right now as 350,000 Gazans isn't somehow genocide. 

 

Which goes back to the point you side stepped about the DPRK.

 

America dropped so much napalm that the land became ash. 1 in 5 Koreans were eliminated from the bombing campaigns. 

 

Are these not Victims of the West and its ideologies of imperialism and capitalism? 

 

Do 100 Gazans only equal to 1 European?

[Rep2000]

2 hours ago, Virgos Groove said:

China has not abandoned the road to communism. It simply adjusted course after the excesses of the Cultural Revolution, implementing market socialist with heavy control by the State. Not all socialist systems are the same. Yugoslavia's had worker's self-management. the USSR's was state-controlled, China and Vietnam's is adapted to the globalized reality of our time.

 

And what hope is there in India that there isn't in China? 

I'm sorry but "China has not abandoned the road to Communism" is so delulu it took me out! Lol!

You mean the same country with the most rising millionaires and billionaires class, along mega corps? It's as capitalism as any western country lol. The communism in China now is just in name to maintain the 1 political party monopoly (just like how North Korea is "Democratic", "People's" or "Republic"). Let's not be that naive (or obtuse) here.

[Communion]

2 minutes ago, Rep2000 said:

You mean the same country with the most rising millionaires and billionaires class,

My favorite think about this trope is that it's somehow used at the same time as hysterical claims about Chinese billionaires being killed or vanished by the government. 

 

"China is capitalist! They have billionaires!"

"Look at how these scary commies just kill people for having too much money"

 

"A Chinse billionaire dies every 40 days"

 

How do we get Xi Jinping on the line STAT. 

 

 

[Mean Trees]

2 hours ago, Vermouth said:

"Adjusted its course".

 

Yeah, right.

(Oh and those "excesses" starved and imprisoned how many millions?)
 

India at least has the hope you can vote your rulers out.  Not much chance of that in Beijing is there?

Let's stop the hypotheticals. It's been nearly 80 years of ''democracy'' in India and yet they haven't voted out the poverty. 60% of its population is still classified as living in abject poverty. ''Undemocratic'' China has shown its self to be able to provide significant material progress for its median citizen to the point where the former dominant West is running scared. 

[Rep2000]

4 minutes ago, Communion said:

My favorite think about this trope is that it's somehow used at the same time as hysterical claims about Chinese billionaires being killed or vanished by the government. 

 

"China is capitalist! They have billionaires!"

"Look at how these scary commies just kill people for having too much money"

 

"A Chinse billionaire dies every 40 days"

 

How do we get Xi Jinping on the line STAT. 

 

 

My favourite thing is how you bring up billionaires being killed or vanished by the Chinese goverment would automatically disregard the whole existing system that is producing all those billionaires in China.

Honey, that's worse. 

Edited October 9 by Rep2000

[Communion]

1 minute ago, Rep2000 said:

My favourite thing is how you bring up billionaires being killed or vanished by the Chinese goverment would automatically disregard the whole existing system that is producing all those billionaires in China.

So you mean you think capitalism is just the creation of capital and not the consolidation of capital into fewer and fewer hands. 

 

"Actually, it's capitalism when the government can expropriate without compensation the wealth of billionaires and execute them"

 

Girl how do we get that version of capitalism in the US? I think we're stuck on an old version of Windows XP.

[Virgos Groove]

3 minutes ago, Communion said:

So you mean you think capitalism is just the creation of capital and not the consolidation of capital into fewer and fewer hands. 

 

"Actually, it's capitalism when the government can expropriate without compensation the wealth of billionaires and execute them"

 

Girl how do we get that version of capitalism in the US? I think we're stuck on an old version of Windows XP.

Literally this meme with Chinese characteristics.

 

[Prodigal Self]

1 minute ago, NewStanner said:

@Prodigal Self a communist and a Travis Scott stan, pick a struggle 

I ain't no communist and I don't know or care who you stan for sugar **** (but we both know it's some flopping pop *******)

[Prodigal Self]

But equating communists to nazis is so absurd and disingenuous, like y'all are so ******* stupid