discussion Is massive immigration a bad thing?

[shyboi]

My father emigrated from Italy to the US and my mother from México to the US, without immigration I wouldn't even exist, so I'm a little biased in this discussion.

 

 

In your holy opinion, Is massive immigration a bad thing? Like millions of people emigrating to another country for a better life 

[PoisonedIvy]

If a country does not have sufficient procedures for entry, naturalization, and integration, then yes it can be a bad thing. But a developed nation, in theory, should be able to handle these sorts of things safely and efficiently.  
 

Too much of "anything" is a bad thing though, that's a general rule that's pretty much always true. 

[needs]

Immigration is fine and should be encouraged and supported nearly everywhere that's a hill I'll die on and the protectionist ideologies are not only outdated they're STUPID.

[SignificantOther]

Yes. In recent years Canada has taken almost as many legal immigrants as the US despite a population only a tenth of the size, and it has had a massive effect on housing prices. 

[Dialamba]

Yes and no. Americans have been living in Portugal recently and now house pricing soared and the locals can't even live there anymore. 
no I truly think without immigration would've ended like Korea. 

[aadrl1]

 

 

Everything has a limit

 

 

 

 

 

 

[aadrl1]

 

 

Good and bad is such simplification.

 

Obviously no immigration is bad. A country completely getting taken over by immigrants is also bad 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[bad guy]

I mean if you have a country that's already having issues with/or is unable to take care of the citizens within its own country, then naturally adding hundreds of thousands/millions of people from outside of it will become an issue. There's nothing wrong with a country wanting to bring people in that can add to the success of the nation, like bringing in certain expertise for needed jobs, adding to an economy with their money, or contributing to the overall betterment of their society. Unfortunately the immigration system in the US is so broken that it takes years for people to be able to apply and do things the legal way, and is instead overwhelmed by the amount of people that do it the non-legal way. Then you have to factor in national security risks with all of that. 

 

I've only heard anecdotes about what's been going on in Europe as well as in Mexico, so I'm not familiar enough to speak on it fully but I do know that massive levels of unconditional migration in any country is not sustainable. And this is coming from someone who also wouldn't exist if my father didn't immigrate here (if that matters).

[Communion]

People who complain about immigration give away the game by framing their complaints as reactionary victimization, often complaining about ethnic and cultural diversity.

 

Hardly you ever hear in the context of the West and migration from the Global South concern or anger over the realities that cause said migration. 

 

There lacks the honesty to recognize that economic migrants are often victim to a global economic system that sees their home get resources or wealth or talent taken from and given to the countries who now complain of too many migrants.

Edited September 2 by Communion

[shyboi]

6 minutes ago, Communion said:

People who complain about immigration give away the game by framing their complaints as reactionary victimization, often complaining about ethnic and cultural diversity.

 

Hardly you ever hear in the context of the West and migration from the Global South concern or anger over the realities that cause said migration. 

 

There lacks the honesty to recognize that economic migrants are often victim to a global economic system that sees their home get resources or wealth or talent taken from and given to the countries who now complain of too many migrants.

 

Thousands of americans, mostly white, privileged ones, are moving to México, and it's a mess, the gentrification is out of control

 

it can go both ways

[SignificantOther]

11 minutes ago, Communion said:

People who complain about immigration give away the game by framing their complaints as reactionary victimization, often complaining about ethnic and cultural diversity.

 

Hardly you ever hear in the context of the West and migration from the Global South concern or anger over the realities that cause said migration. 

 

There lacks the honesty to recognize that economic migrants are often victim to a global economic system that sees their home get resources or wealth or talent taken from and given to the countries who now complain of too many migrants.

Immigration is part of the global capitalist system though. South-North immigration is brain drain and North-South immigration is gentrification. 

[SoldierofLove]

This is a tough question to answer. I'm leaning towards "yes". 
 

I just want to know this: If you're immigrating from a country that hates abortion rights, women, LGBT and other "progressive" and "western" values, why did you decide to go somewhere that doesn't reflect your values and protest all of that? We have enough homegrown right wing nuts to deal with.

[Sheep]

It's a very complex issue. Human migration is never inherently a bad thing but it can have nasty consequences for everybody involved(discrimination, hate crimes, locals being shut out of economic opportunities, etc). I don't believe there's an easy answer to point to and it should/will stay a messy, grey, case by case phenomena. 

 

23 minutes ago, Communion said:

People who complain about immigration give away the game by framing their complaints as reactionary victimization, often complaining about ethnic and cultural diversity.

 

Hardly you ever hear in the context of the West and migration from the Global South concern or anger over the realities that cause said migration. 

 

There lacks the honesty to recognize that economic migrants are often victim to a global economic system that sees their home get resources or wealth or talent taken from and given to the countries who now complain of too many migrants.

You hit the nail on the head but there's a major concern not being recognized here, all cultures are equal but that doesn't mean all cultures integrate naturally together. Sometimes people can bring the issues they're fleeing from with them in one form or another and lead to negative outcomes on the whole for where they're immigrating to(an obvious example would be the spread of corrosive religious ideologies or misogyny/homophobia/racism from countries that didn't have the luxury to spend the past century focused on social issues). Right wing ideologies flourish in areas with mass immigration, both with the locals and the immigrants too, it's a real concern. I don't want to feel less safe walking down the straight as a gay man and these biases take generations to soften.

 

There's also sometimes career training/education gaps that can bring down the economic prospects of a city, but those things fix themselves fast given the opportunity.

Edited September 2 by Sheep

[bielneira]

As a recent immigrant in Canada, I'm biased. However, I understand both sides.

[itshyolee]

23 minutes ago, bad guy said:

I mean if you have a country that's already having issues with/or is unable to take care of the citizens within its own country, then naturally adding hundreds of thousands/millions of people from outside of it will become an issue.

Quoting for emphasis

[Communion]

22 minutes ago, Sheep said:

You hit the nail on the head but there's a major concern not being recognized here, all cultures are equal but that doesn't mean all cultures integrate naturally together. Sometimes people can bring the issues they're fleeing from with them in one form or another and lead to negative outcomes on the whole for where they're immigrating to(an obvious example would be the spread of corrosive religious ideologies or misogyny/homophobia/racism from countries that didn't have the luxury to spend the past century focused on social issues). Right wing ideologies flourish in areas with mass immigration, both with the locals and the immigrants too, it's a real concern. I don't want to feel less safe walking down the straight as a gay man and these biases take generations to soften.

 

There's also sometimes career training/education gaps that can bring down the economic prospects of a city, but those things fix themselves fast given the opportunity.

I generally see what you're saying, but would just personally avoid language like "naturally," as it feels like it could verge into essentialism. Culture isn't inherent. And I just think this worry is answered to the fact that... people largely don't migrate to a country with a culture they don't agree with?

 

We should probably delineate that there's two different type of economic migrants:

- the often very highly educated and middle class kind who 'legally' migrate via work visas (what is referred to as brain drain) 

- those who are unwilling migrants who (often 'illegally') migrate due to collapsing or damaged economies, often working class migrants 

 

Like, sure, there are maybe conservative Afghan migrants living and working in parts of Europe or migrants from countries in Central America living and working in the US who don't feel a need to learn English and this phenomenon causes varying degrees of social disruption, but... whose fault is it that people are begrudgingly traveling thousands of miles to make money?

 

Someone who hates LGBTQ people isn't going to eagerly move to a country and culture that openly boasts and supports LGBTQ people. So why do the few who do then do?

 

A leftist analysis will tell us it's about the global economy. A right-wing analysis will try and peddle neo-nazi conspiracies like replacement theory, for example.

Edited September 2 by Communion

[PrettyHurts]

if they stream my fave then its okay 

[Smarticle]

Ask Canada

[Dula Peep]

Having a diverse nation is a great thing 

 

however people should follow the rules and come here legal unless they are seeking asylum 

[BrokenMachine]

Inmigration is something natural, and it helps the host countries temporally against the falling birth rates.

 

Inmigration is not the problem itself, it's the lack of urban planning and governments acting like inmigrants doesn't exist, and even when inmigrants help to sustain their economy, they still won't apply correct urban planning in order to mitigate some problems when it comes to inmigrants.

 

There's a big asterisk for places that are currently overpopulated tho. And this isn't even about people emigrating from one country to another, Americans going to the hot Phoenix desert when the lack of water is obvious comes to mind 

[Robert]

I don't think it's a simple yes or no question. I am all for immigration and have lived in different countries myself but obviously there should be a process and there needs to be sufficient infrastructure and housing in place to ensure that all residents are able to meet their needs. Unfortunately, a lot of places with high immigration have planned poorly and struggled to do this even though they rely on immigration for a variety of things and then attack the people propping up their economy rather than focusing on how to increase housing supply and improve infrastructure. It's silly to think huge countries like Canada and Australia say they don't have spaces for immigrants when they clearly do.

[HausOfPunk]

Immigration itself is not a bad thing. But bringing tons of people into your country every year without having enough housing or jobs to support them is a recipe for disaster. Canada is going through this right now.

[AvadaKedavra]

Some of my thoughts about Inmigration. Dont get riled up. Lets have conversations. Im open to change my views 
No masquerading stuff. Just sayin it as it is. As someone from a middle-poor income country.

Open spoiler
 

Spoiler

I live in Colombia, a country that has been affected by far-left terrorist guerrillas and a right-wing government that has been very corrupt. This has left my country in a terrible state, with problems on every level—economic, educational, and in terms of overall well-being. Living here certainly has its beautiful aspects, like the nature and culture, but it also involves a lot of suffering. Low quality everything, Low wages, constant crime, relentless government corruption, and violence make it nearly impossible to get ahead. Many people leave for other countries because sometimes living in the developing world can feel like hell. It's very difficult to progress. No upward mobility or chances of havin stability and our countries are more vulnerable to dictatorships. Many have no choice. Sometimes you see movies or images of life in the first world and all the marvelous things, and you feel terrible, like you're worth nothing and we all get so jealous    We dont tell you but we get angry how we cant have the same things as you and all your luxuries and all those high life standards (Not me) (Im a very mature person. I appreciate everything i have.) 


 

People are also a reflection of a country. In my country, there are wonderful and incredible people, like Shakira and amazing people in all the social classes, but there are also people who are not so great. They are the product of these problems. So, you have people who didn't receive a good education or learn civility. They live in a dog-eat-dog culture. Many, when they realize how bad things are, migrate to other countries. Even if the new country offers them opportunities, because they lack a moral compass-they were not taught to respect others, they continue doing what they did in their home country. It's people who grew up crooked, and it's hard to straighten them out. This happened with a relative of mine who went to Spain to commit crimes and is part of a gang there.  Yes our countries are not a monolith of sainthood. We deal everyday with the sweetest and the darkest here.

 

As someone from the third world, I also believe that when you migrate to a country, you need to show the best of your culture in that new country. Is a lot of pressure but u should.  You must adapt because you are given the unique privilege of living better. You should also leave behind all those backward things like extremism or outdated views from traditionalism and religion and embrace the values of the new country.
 

At the same time, it's important that people in the first world don't see you as subhuman. That you have value and are not treated like a piece of trash. I've seen it with friends who have gone to Europe or Northamerica, and they are underplayed as if they are worth nothing. One of my family members recently moved to Arkansas and is ignored by americans and white girls just cause he's latino. This way, there will never be integration, and gaps will form, leading to hatred. Integration comes from both sides  The toxicity i get on reddit in some pop spaces there cause i dont act like a typical american is honestly unerving sometimes  

ATRL is the opposite. This forum is so open to all cultures and everyone is so nice. It doesnt matter where you come from. 
 

These are my opinions as someone from the third world. Someone who has wanted to move to the first world but hasn't done so yet because i don't want to leave my family behind. Someone who understands the pain of immigrants leaving their lands and get worried about them specially when they cross the darien gap or mexican border and, at the same time, i understand the concerns of first-world people when things don't work out with external people.
 

I believe immigration only enriches countries. Diversity is the most beautiful thing in the world, but at the same time, I feel that some countries are very vulnerable because of activists who love to defend bad inmigrants (they are given too much power) lol, and the countries don't have enough rules or standards for foreigners. Yes to immigration, but with measures that guarantee the safety of all the countries and their citizens. Yes the ideal thing would be a world without frontiers like Pokemon but the real truth is.........Human Beings are not perfect. Some turn evil or are born like that and they bring chaos. Paradox of Tolerance. Read about it. 

As an immigrant, I would be willing to have a system to track how I'm doing in a new country. If I'm doing well economically, if my life is on the right track, and if I haven't turned to criminality. I see no problem with that.  But i would be concerned of the racist people in countries lying and portraying me as bad even if im doin things good. Thats the deal.

 

Edited September 2 by AvadaKedavra

[Tropez]

4 hours ago, Communion said:

People who complain about immigration give away the game by framing their complaints as reactionary victimization, often complaining about ethnic and cultural diversity.

 

Hardly you ever hear in the context of the West and migration from the Global South concern or anger over the realities that cause said migration. 

 

There lacks the honesty to recognize that economic migrants are often victim to a global economic system that sees their home get resources or wealth or talent taken from and given to the countries who now complain of too many migrants.

I don't really agree with this. Too many people from wealthy countries immigrate to poorer countries and drive up costs of living for people who lived there before. This is even happening in wealthy countries where in the EU, people could freely move between members. So as you could imagine housing in places like Greece or Portugal get more expensive as people with the means can afford it.
 

Housing shouldnt be a business, people need shelter to survive. Wealthy people shouldn't just buy up homes from other countries just because they think a place looks cool to become "digital nomads". There's like 800k Americans in Mexico right now. 

[AvadaKedavra]

26 minutes ago, Tropez said:

I don't really agree with this. Too many people from wealthy countries immigrate to poorer countries and drive up costs of living for people who lived there before. This is even happening in wealthy countries where in the EU, people could freely move between members. So as you could imagine housing in places like Greece or Portugal get more expensive as people with the means can afford it.
 

Housing shouldnt be a business, people need shelter to survive. Wealthy people shouldn't just buy up homes from other countries just because they think a place looks cool to become "digital nomads". There's like 800k Americans in Mexico right now. 

This is happenin in Medellin in my country Colombia and people are hating the extranjeros more and more everyday cause the rent prices are too high now and the city is now turning into a place more for the people "outside" than the native ones. The inmigrants from US-Europe are also very messy and come for drugs and lookin for sex workers.  the rent in medellin is now like 4x times the average price in the rest of the cities of my country. 

I dont blame the inmigrants. I think the goverments should be the ones havin control of rents and how expensive things get and havin more laws for this types of situations or taxes. 
We are blaming inmigrants when the Goverments are the ones who should have some control over prices  Theyre so incompent or they only wanna benefit the rich
Canada is blaming all the inmigrants........But What is justin trudeau and the goverment doin to make things less expensive for canadian people? nothing
 

 

Edited September 2 by AvadaKedavra