Virgos Groove Posted August 24 Posted August 24 Quote The Mexican president, Andrés Manuel López Obrador, does not yet want to recognize the re-election of Nicolás Maduro in the July 28 elections in Venezuela . "We are going to wait for them to release the minutes, because yesterday the Electoral Court of Venezuela maintains that President Maduro won the election and, at the same time, recommends that the minutes be released. I think there is a date for the resolution, So we're going to wait," AMLO said in his morning conference. DW +
BrokenMachine Posted August 24 Posted August 24 I thought he supported Maduro, so this is a 'small' win or a better PR move I guess 1
QuanticXplosion Posted August 24 Posted August 24 27 minutes ago, BrokenMachine said: I thought he supported Maduro, so this is a 'small' win or a better PR move I guess He basically Is supporting Maduro in that video though?
Disconnect Posted August 24 Posted August 24 5 minutes ago, QuanticXplosion said: He basically Is supporting Maduro in that video though? He's attacking the US which is different.
QuanticXplosion Posted August 24 Posted August 24 3 minutes ago, Disconnect said: He's attacking the US which is different. No, he clearly said: "How can OAS certify that the other candidate won? That is instrusion"
Virgos Groove Posted August 24 Author Posted August 24 6 minutes ago, QuanticXplosion said: No, he clearly said: "How can OAS certify that the other candidate won? That is instrusion" Is it not? 1 1
QuanticXplosion Posted August 24 Posted August 24 Just now, Virgos Groove said: Is it not? I mean... That's not kind of intrusion they need at this point. Way too diplomatic, it is a shame the US doesn't appear to have any interest in Venezuela because someone has to help them.
Virgos Groove Posted August 24 Author Posted August 24 Just now, QuanticXplosion said: I mean... That's not kind of intrusion they need at this point. Way too diplomatic, it is a shame the US doesn't appear to have any interest in Venezuela because someone has to help them. ??? The US has been placing sanctions since the mid-2010s, recognized an unelected president in 2019, and has now prematurely recognized Edmundo as the winner. The US has been interested in Venezuela (and that sweet, sweet oil) for years now. Venezuela doesn't need ANY intrusion. This is a complex situation and Biden is basically throwing a match into powder by recognizing Edmundo, which not even Boric has done. "Someone has to help them." Okay, George W. Bush. The Western world doesn't get to wage economic war (let alone actual war) on a country just because "this time it'll be for good!!! Humanitarian shock and awe!!!". Regardless of what you think of Maduro, no country has the right to tell another sovereign nation who won their elections. Either they recognize the results or they don't. Anything beyond that is interference. It'd be like Maduro putting out a press release saying Jill Stein won the 2016 election. 2 1
Bosque Posted August 24 Posted August 24 Not him putting out some faux hypocritical statement a month later when everything is sealed and sewn up, and the Supreme Court has already "verified" Maduro's win of course he is going to end up supporting Maduro while also pretending to be extremely concerned 1
Digitalism Posted August 24 Posted August 24 Are some people defending dictatorships in here just to attack the US? I can tell some of you have never lived in a poor country
Virgos Groove Posted August 24 Author Posted August 24 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Digitalism said: Are some people defending dictatorships in here just to attack the US? I can tell some of you have never lived in a poor country "Maduro's supposed win has yet to be proven, but the US shouldn't interfere in other countries' affairs." "Wow, are you defending a DICTATOR?????" You would've definitely supported the War on Iraq. Edited August 24 by Virgos Groove 6
Digitalism Posted August 24 Posted August 24 19 minutes ago, Virgos Groove said: "Maduro's supposed win has yet to be proven, but the US shouldn't interfere in other countries' affairs." "Wow, are you defending a DICTATOR?????" You would've definitely supported the War on Iraq. Even AMLO and Lula think Maduro didn't won otherwhise they would have supported him like they did on the other rigged elections. I would have never talk about what happened in Iraq because I have no knowledge of what happened since I don't live close to the country. You are the one being super ignorant. Please don't talk about things you know nothing about. You are supporting a dictatorship in order to say f the US. Pretty childish
Virgos Groove Posted August 24 Author Posted August 24 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Digitalism said: Even AMLO and Lula think Maduro didn't won otherwhise they would have supported him like they did on the other rigged elections. I would have never talk about what happened in Iraq because I have no knowledge of what happened since I don't live close to the country. You are the one being super ignorant. Please don't talk about things you know nothing about. You are supporting a dictatorship in order to say f the US. Pretty childish I'm supporting Maduro by... saying that his claim that he won the election has not been proven? Do you think before you type? And yes, I'm gonna bring up Iraq when members start throwing jingoistic rethoric and saying the West should "do something". The nerve of Latin American right-wingers to say "Westerners know nothing about our countries!" and then... ask for us to get involved? Let me put this clearly: You're not getting a ******* NATO intervention. Edited August 24 by Virgos Groove 4
Digitalism Posted August 24 Posted August 24 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Virgos Groove said: I'm supporting Maduro by... saying that his claim that he won the election has not been proven? And yes, I'm gonna bring up Iraq when members start throwing jingoistic rethoric and saying the West should "do something". The nerve of Latin American right-wingers to say "Westerners know nothing about our countries!" and then... ask for us to get involved? Let me put this clearly: You're not getting a ******* NATO intervention. The problem is that you know so little about the topic that you think I'm saying this to defend the US. When I'm saying this because I know people like Cristina Fernandez, Lula and AMLO are acting dumb because they had and have messy bussinesses with the dictatorship in Venezuela. You have no idea what you're talking about. Anyone from Venezuela will tell you how ignorant you are. Edited August 24 by Digitalism
Virgos Groove Posted August 24 Author Posted August 24 16 minutes ago, Digitalism said: The problem is that you know so little about the topic that you think I'm saying this to defend the US. When I'm saying this because I know people like Cristina Fernandez, Lula and AMLO are acting dumb because they had and have messy bussinesses with the dictatorship in Venezuela. You have no idea what you're talking about. Anyone from Venezuela will tell you how ignorant you are. Okay... and how is any of that related to your claim that I was "defending dictators"? 1 hour ago, Digitalism said: Are some people defending dictatorships in here just to attack the US? I can tell some of you have never lived in a poor country
Green Posted August 25 Posted August 25 Sorry @Virgos Groove but you have no idea about our situation How can we fight against Maduro's ditatorship then according to you when controls all the powers here? The best that the rest of the world can do is recognize Edmundo as the president we chose. The oposition showed the rest of the world the evidence of their win, but they can't do anything here with that evidence because this is a dictatorship and Maduro isn't going anywhere no matter if Edmundo has more than the double of votes than him So what's your solution? we should accept what Maduro's supreme tribunal of "justice" says as their truth and pretend that he won? Because we can't fight against them, they have the military on their side. So yeah stop defending a dictatorship when you have no idea what is happening here 1
Virgos Groove Posted August 26 Author Posted August 26 (edited) 22 hours ago, Green said: Sorry @Virgos Groove but you have no idea about our situation How can we fight against Maduro's ditatorship then according to you when controls all the powers here? The best that the rest of the world can do is recognize Edmundo as the president we chose. The oposition showed the rest of the world the evidence of their win, but they can't do anything here with that evidence because this is a dictatorship and Maduro isn't going anywhere no matter if Edmundo has more than the double of votes than him So what's your solution? we should accept what Maduro's supreme tribunal of "justice" says as their truth and pretend that he won? Because we can't fight against them, they have the military on their side. So yeah stop defending a dictatorship when you have no idea what is happening here Venezuelans can do whatever they want. It's their country. Oust Maduro, don't oust Maduro... it's not for me to decide. But when it starts involving the country I live in (an EU and NATO member), I do have a right to have an opinion. Like I've repeated multiple times, I'm not defending Maduro. Criticizing Western foreign policy is not defending Maduro. Being skeptical of US funding of the Venezuela opposition (shouldn't that money go towards Americans, who don't even have healthcare?) is not defending Maduro. Not wanting the world's sole superpower (US) and their vassal states (EU) to hand out sanctions (which have been reported to have worsened the situation) like free candy is not defending Maduro. Don't we Westerners also have a say in what our countries do? The US and the EU don't have to get involved, especially when past "humanitarian" interferences and interventions have only ended in disaster (Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya). Edited August 26 by Virgos Groove 2 1
Marianah Adkins Posted August 27 Posted August 27 22 hours ago, Virgos Groove said: Venezuelans can do whatever they want. It's their country. Oust Maduro, don't oust Maduro... it's not for me to decide. But when it starts involving the country I live in (an EU and NATO member), I do have a right to have an opinion. Like I've repeated multiple times, I'm not defending Maduro. Criticizing Western foreign policy is not defending Maduro. Being skeptical of US funding of the Venezuela opposition (shouldn't that money go towards Americans, who don't even have healthcare?) is not defending Maduro. Not wanting the world's sole superpower (US) and their vassal states (EU) to hand out sanctions (which have been reported to have worsened the situation) like free candy is not defending Maduro. Don't we Westerners also have a say in what our countries do? The US and the EU don't have to get involved, especially when past "humanitarian" interferences and interventions have only ended in disaster (Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya). Just want to ask, do you support an isolationist foreign policy?
Virgos Groove Posted August 27 Author Posted August 27 11 minutes ago, Marianah Adkins said: Just want to ask, do you support an isolationist foreign policy? More or less, yes. Interventionist foreign policy has been a disaster for everyone except the Fortune 500. This quote is from 1898, but it's still relevant: Quote Who gets the benefit of the war? The bond seekers, the capitalists, the railroads, national bankers will profit by this war. The new bonds give them the basis for new banks and their power is prolonged. The privileged classes all profit by this war. It takes the attention of the people of economic issues and perpetuates the unjust system they have put upon us. Politicians profit by the war. It buries issues they dare not meet. What do the people get out of this war? The fighting and the taxes. What is the United States doing in this war with Spain in the first place? True, Spain is oppressing Cuba, but so is England oppressing Ireland, Egypt and India; France is oppressing Siam and Madagascar; Turkey is oppressing Armenia. Should we then take up arms against the oppressors of the world? We would more likely end up by becoming oppressors ourselves. The Spaniards and Cubans were bushwacking one another and killing from three to five men at a battle; we have gone down there and killed more people in 3 months than they would have killed in 13 years. If they were starving before, who feeds them now? What are we going to get out of this war as a nation is endless trouble, complications, expense. Republics can't go into the conquering business and remain republics. Militarism leads to military domination and military despotism. Imperialism smooths the way for the emperor. Tom Watson
Disconnect Posted August 27 Posted August 27 On 8/24/2024 at 1:01 PM, QuanticXplosion said: That is instrusion Because it is?
Marianah Adkins Posted August 27 Posted August 27 1 hour ago, Virgos Groove said: More or less, yes. Interventionist foreign policy has been a disaster for everyone except the Fortune 500. This quote is from 1898, but it's still relevant: So hypothetically, if for example, America's allies in Europe and Asia are attacked, do you think that the US should not honor its diplomatic and military guarantees? I'm just curious
Virgos Groove Posted August 27 Author Posted August 27 (edited) 34 minutes ago, Marianah Adkins said: So hypothetically, if for example, America's allies in Europe and Asia are attacked, do you think that the US should not honor its diplomatic and military guarantees? I'm just curious Which allies? Attacked by whom? NATO has never been invaded. In fact, all its interventions have been offensive in nature. I have a problem with your framing because it implies all great powers are bad-faith actors except the well-meaning US, which just has to have military bases all over the world. Like it was thrusted upon this position by everybody else. As if the whole world is ready to go to war, but it's the thankless, generous US that sacrifices its people's living for world peace. Empires aren't formed in a fit of absent-mindedness. For every "ally" America has, there is a concerted effort to keep those countries as "allies" (read: vassal states), be it funding right-wing regimes, instigating military coups or straight-up invading countries when they go out of line. You don't spend 62% of your federal budget on the military because the world just needs you. You don't drop the sun on a country twice and still get to claim some sort of moral superiority. But to answer your question, maybe the comprador leaders of Europe and Asia should stop expecting the US to run to their rescue every time. If you need a country on the other side of the world to sustain you, you're not a country, you're a puppet. Diplomacy is not easy - it's a pain in the ass, in fact -, but it's how most conflicts get resolved. Enough with these New Cold War-style politics. War is NOT inevitable. I'll drop this talk here for anyone interested, since it more or less explains my point: Michael Parenti - The Darker Myths of Empire Edited August 27 by Virgos Groove 1
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