The7thStranger Posted July 26 Posted July 26 The effects of a Trump presidency would spill out far beyond the borders of Palestine. Denying that is only going to get the rest of the world into serious, serious trouble. While I do not blame Palestinian-Americans for abstaining from this election, I encourage the rest of us to keep in mind that Trump coming into power would gravely affect everybody's safety, whether you're in Europe, Asia, or the US. You have to look at the bigger picture. 4
Kukai Posted July 26 Posted July 26 (edited) 54 minutes ago, The7thStranger said: The effects of a Trump presidency would spill out far beyond the borders of Palestine. Denying that is only going to get the rest of the world into serious, serious trouble. While I do not blame Palestinian-Americans for abstaining from this election, I encourage the rest of us to keep in mind that Trump coming into power would gravely affect everybody's safety, whether you're in Europe, Asia, or the US. You have to look at the bigger picture. I disagree. Not voting for Kamala is basically voting for Trump so it's a seriously stupid and selfish decision to make. The reality is, majority of people in America are more concerned about issues directly facing America such as cost of living, immigration, housing etc. Whoever wins this November will win based on how the electorate feel about these specific issues. Edited July 26 by Kukai 3 4
The7thStranger Posted July 26 Posted July 26 1 minute ago, Kukai said: I disagree. Not voting for Kamala is basically voting for Trump so it's a seriously stupid and selfish decision to make. I don't think we can be so black and white on this issue. I fully understand why Palestinian-Americans would abstain from this vote. How do you convince those people who have been so profoundly affected by the US's foreign policy to vote for people who uphold and even advocate it? I don't think hurling insults at those people right now is the wisest decision to make. If we want to get people to vote for Kamala, we have to find a way of communicating that is less volatile. I'm trying to be pragmatic about this election, as I feel we all should, but I'm also not directly affected by this war. Kamala's got my vote, but that doesn't mean she won't have to put in the work to bridge the schism between the administration and the things that voters actually care about. 1 1
Kukai Posted July 26 Posted July 26 30 minutes ago, The7thStranger said: I don't think we can be so black and white on this issue. I fully understand why Palestinian-Americans would abstain from this vote. How do you convince those people who have been so profoundly affected by the US's foreign policy to vote for people who uphold and even advocate it? I don't think hurling insults at those people right now is the wisest decision to make. If we want to get people to vote for Kamala, we have to find a way of communicating that is less volatile. I'm trying to be pragmatic about this election, as I feel we all should, but I'm also not directly affected by this war. Kamala's got my vote, but that doesn't mean she won't have to put in the work to bridge the schism between the administration and the things that voters actually care about. My patience has ran out for people who don't understand what is at stake. It will always be a purity test for people who are further to the left in the party. Historically, those people don't turn out to vote either. This isn't about feelings this is about being pragmatic for the future of this country, including the causes people are passionate about. And that can only be done by winning elections! It's an uphill battle because the improvements in the economy isn't translating to people's living standards. My biggest fear is Trump is offering all the easy solutions that could persuade voters. 2 4
Communion Posted July 26 Posted July 26 4 minutes ago, Kukai said: My patience has ran out for people who don't understand what is at stake. It will always be a purity test. 44 minutes ago, The7thStranger said: Palestinian-Americans Genuinely evil kind of behavior when this is who you are talking about. 3 1
Kukai Posted July 26 Posted July 26 1 minute ago, Communion said: Genuinely evil kind of behavior when this is who you are talking about. People further left to the party. But please continue making your own narratives up to make yourself feel morally superior here. This is what you've been doing in most of our exchanges. I've said it before, you don't make real policy changes without winning an election. And considering how tight this election will be, yeah I will stand by my point. 2 2
Communion Posted July 26 Posted July 26 20 minutes ago, Kukai said: People further left to the party. The person you've decidedly to irrationally quote literally says they're speaking on Palestinian-Americans. 1 1 1
ATRL Moderator Oxygen Posted July 26 ATRL Moderator Posted July 26 37 minutes ago, Kukai said: My patience has ran out for people who don't understand what is at stake. Likewise. It’s legitimately infuriating at this point. 2 3 1
Kukai Posted July 26 Posted July 26 7 minutes ago, Communion said: The person you've decidedly to irrationally quote literally says they're speaking on Palestinian-Americans. My post was pretty self-explanatory. In the video OP posted, Trump is using racist language. But people like me are in the wrong right? The choice is very simple this election just watch the video in the OP. If you don't realise why so many of us are frustrated by this discourse then I don't know what to tell you. Be critical of the democrats all you want but I don't want Trump who is objectively worse to get in power. 2
Communion Posted July 26 Posted July 26 Just now, Kukai said: My post was pretty self-explanatory. It's really not. > *users posts that they understand why Palestinian-Americans will abstain from voting* >> *you got off on a tirade saying **** people who don't vote and that they don't understand what's at stake* > *it's pointed out to you that this comment is gross and tone-deaf to say about Palestinian-Americans, given that's who you've aimed it at by virtue of quoting The7thStranger* >> *continues to pretend to be confused and suggest you're just talking about leftists broadly* Nothing Trump could do to you is ever going to match in sheer brutality what you're defending has been already done to these people. You will never know what's at stake under the threat of fascism more than Palestinians and their loved ones within America. 1 1
Kukai Posted July 26 Posted July 26 3 minutes ago, Communion said: Nothing Trump could do to you is ever going to match in sheer brutality what you're defending has been already done to these people. You will never know what's at stake under the threat of fascism more than Palestinians and their loved ones within America. Yeah good luck believing that. Trump is making it clear what he wants to do but yes people wanting Kamala to win are the wrong ones. It's giving cognitive dissonance if you're abstaining or not voting for democrats. 2
ATRL Moderator Oxygen Posted July 26 ATRL Moderator Posted July 26 19 minutes ago, Communion said: Nothing Trump could do to you is ever going to match in sheer brutality what you're defending has been already done to these people. You will never know what's at stake under the threat of fascism more than Palestinians and their loved ones within America. But what Trump could do/let happen to Gaza is obviously much more worse than if Kamala was elected, no? 2
Communion Posted July 27 Posted July 27 3 minutes ago, Oxygen said: But what Trump could do/let happen to Gaza is obviously much more worse than if Kamala was elected, no? I think good-intentioned liberals will have to at some point reconcile with the reality of what Biden has actually let unfold - and the extent of the horrors - to understand why so many Palestinians and Palestinian-Americans are vocally saying that Kamala's policies aren't looking yet any different from Biden's and Biden's policies and full support of genocide extends to such horrors that the idea of Trump is simply not a meaningful argument. What exactly does "obviously much more worse" look to someone who now has several dead cousins, nieces, grandparents, laying dead and cold under the rubble of buildings destroyed by American bombs? Would you vote for someone if they paid someone to break into your home, shoot your grandmother in the face, and then let the people responsible ransack her home and film the destruction of them going through your family's memories and treasured items to post on TikTok for fun? Like, at some point liberals have to understand we're not discussing things theoretically or things that are only discussed in the abstract, right? That "it's not as bad as it could be" at some point actually refers to someone seeing their grandmother, uncle, brother, or even parent wail in agony from being shot by an IDF sniper and witness a leg or an arm have to be amputated and made permanently disabled; or - the horrific alternative - lay cold and bloody as a corpse. Israel is estimated to have killed almost 10% of Gaza at this point. That's 200,000 people. Why would anyone be surprised that these people's relatives in America now hate America for murdering their lovedo nes, let alone why would anyone ever expect these relatives to want to vote to "help save America", for example? 2 1
Communion Posted July 27 Posted July 27 (edited) 35 minutes ago, Kukai said: Yeah good luck believing that. Tens of thousands of Palestinians report being subjected to being kidnapped, held in IDF army jails for weeks, and being subject to torture and rape. Doctors report countless children coming into their hospitals - cold, lifeless tiny bodies - with multiple bullet wounds from snipers. They describe holding withered bodies in their hands and seeing for the first time what a toddler's head looks like partially exploded and seeing what such a small brain looks like in person for the first time. Hundreds of thousands no longer have a place to live or own anything to their name as any house and possessions they had has been bulldozed by Israel, who is trying to already claim huge portions of Gaza to create "a buffer zone". Countless cities bombed to nothing. The level of widespread famine occurring is estimated to already permanently impact the development of Gaza's 1M children, with hundreds of thousands permanently disabled for the rest of their lives. Reports indicate hepatitis A and polio are beginning to spread. Countless parents scarred from either the horrific journey of carrying their loved ones hopeless through the desert, or searching through the scattered pieces of random ligaments and limbs in desperate hope that somehow their child's body at least remains intact in the pile of organs and parts. Nothing you, I, or any American in the year 2024 will ever experience, even if Trump got his deepest and darkest desires granted via becoming president again, will ever materially equate to the horrors Americans have helped pay to inflict onto the Palestinian people. We should be begging the Palestinian people for even a crumb of forgiveness for doing this to them, not demanding their relatives for their votes. Edited July 27 by Communion
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