Space Cowboy Posted July 7 Posted July 7 8 minutes ago, Vespertine said: It's extra rich when it's coming from people whose "MY country!!!" participated in colonizing and enslaving the world + inventing the concept of race to help justify it, or masterminded the Holocaust, or… the list goes on Current Brits, Spaniards or Germans have nothing to do with what their country and their ancestors did so long ago. They're entitled to not feel guilty or ashamed for something their countries did decades or centuries ago. 1 2
Communion Posted July 7 Posted July 7 (edited) 31 minutes ago, Space Cowboy said: You have artists having to write entire essays about their racial background because some people can't mind their own business Isn't it a bit dishonest to not mention that conversations about Tyla's race in the US amongst some black Americans, from what I saw, were more-so due to the term she chooses to identify her race in South Africa with is a racial epithet in America? And some black Americans being uncomfortable with having to use it, thus the conversations really just being whether black or mixed was the more appropriate equivalent? I get the criticisms of Americans centering themselves in world affairs but surely black Americans not wanting to use a word that is derogatory in the US is very low on that list of offenses? Edited July 7 by Communion
Virgos Groove Posted July 7 Posted July 7 Just now, Space Cowboy said: Current Brits, Spaniards or Germans have nothing to do with what their country and their ancestors did so long ago. They're entitled to not feel guilty or ashamed for something their countries did decades or centuries ago. Collective guilt =/= individual guilt. Pretty much all the colonizer countries still haven't reckoned with their past. They still have stolen artifacts in museums, teach a whitewashed version of history, idolize colonial figures and, in the case of France and the UK, still have actual colonies. 2 5 1
Vespertine Posted July 7 Posted July 7 6 minutes ago, Space Cowboy said: Current Brits, Spaniards or Germans have nothing to do with what their country and their ancestors did so long ago. They're entitled to not feel guilty or ashamed for something their countries did decades or centuries ago. It's not about "guilt" or "shame." If you think history has no bearing on current events and people's experiences in the present, you are very naive. Colonization, slavery, the Holocaust, etc. did not stop "centuries" ago and still very much inform global politics and ongoing issues. 3 1
Mordecai Posted July 7 Posted July 7 The UK (and Europe in general) is a lot whiter than people think, Wikipedia says black people make up 3.7% of the population yet by the amount of black people in British music/sport/film/television you'd think that number is a lot higher. Makes it harder to have those conversations
Virgos Groove Posted July 7 Posted July 7 6 minutes ago, John Slayne said: all of this plus the fact that it's football, which for some reason attracts the most openly racist people in the population. That too. It's always curious watching my fellow Europeans criticize America for still having groups like the KKK and the Westboro Church (a valid criticism, dgmw), but never acknowledge how our own football ultra groups are basically neo-Nazi breeding grounds. 1
Dialamba Posted July 7 Posted July 7 9 minutes ago, Communion said: Isn't it a bit dishonest to not mention that conversations about Tyla's race in the US amongst some black Americans, from what I saw, were more-so due to the term she chooses to identify her race in South Africa with is a racial epithet in America? And some black Americans being uncomfortable with having to use it, thus the conversations really just being whether black or mixed was the more appropriate equivalent? I get the criticisms of Americans centering themselves in world affairs but surely black Americans not wanting to use a word that is derogatory in the US is very low on that list of offenses? The world doesn't revolve around the US. It's not that hard to google and see that being mixed has a different meaning in SA. Why would she call herself black when in fact she's not.
Mr. Blue_Shirt Posted July 7 Posted July 7 1 hour ago, Space Cowboy said: Why are americans so obsessed with race? Of course you don't f*cking read the OP! 1 hour ago, BOOMBAYAH said: as a Black Brit living in England 1
HausOfPunk Posted July 7 Posted July 7 1 hour ago, Virgos Groove said: It's not uncommon to hear Europeans say stuff like "Why do Americans talk about race so much??" or "Nobody cares about racism here", while at the same time wishing death on their Black and Roma populations. And they have the audacity to say things like this after their ancestors colonized most of the world, started the Atlantic Slave Trade, and murdered/raped/destroyed the lives of millions of people of color for hundreds of years. 1 1
Cain Posted July 7 Posted July 7 36 minutes ago, Space Cowboy said: Current Brits, Spaniards or Germans have nothing to do with what their country and their ancestors did so long ago. They're entitled to not feel guilty or ashamed for something their countries did decades or centuries ago. Yes they do, ******* racism is still alive and well and a DIRECT product from the transatlantic slavetrade period that is still profited off of Jesus christ the fact this still has to be explained 4
Tropez Posted July 7 Posted July 7 1 hour ago, The7thStranger said: It's my impression that the UK has a very hard time pointing the gun back at themselves when it comes to things that other countries suffer from on a greater scale (or at least, that's how it is perceived). I think it stems from a collective inferiority complex that has trickled down from the period where they once ruled a large part of the world. The UK's reputation has taken serious hits over the past few decades, something I'm not sure they were ready for. The first thing that comes out of a more ignorant Brit's mouths when you criticize the UK is "Yeah, but America..." or "But in Europe..." as if their nation has somehow evolved beyond other developed nations when, in reality, it hasn't. People do this everywhere. In Canada if you critique how the government runs things or society. People will say "But in the US". People need to seriously take a look at their country and not just the US or somewhere else to diminish the issue. 4
Space Cowboy Posted July 7 Posted July 7 6 minutes ago, Cain said: Yes they do, ******* racism is still alive and well and a DIRECT product from the transatlantic slavetrade period that is still profited off of Jesus christ the fact this still has to be explained Racism has always existed in human history: racism, xenophobia, ethnocentrism, prejudice and discrimination based on ethnic or cultural differences have been present in almost all societies since ancient times. Racism is still alive because unfortunately it's human nature and humanity f*cking sucks, not because colonial europe invented it. I obviously condemn colonialism and the slavetrade period. But current europeans have nothing to do with europe's colonial past and they don't have to accept responsability or feel sorry for what happened. 1 2
Headlock Posted July 7 Posted July 7 1 hour ago, Space Cowboy said: Why are americans so obsessed with race? Do you believe racism only exists in America? Or that England has no history involving… you know, slavery? Colonization? Genocide?
Headlock Posted July 7 Posted July 7 1 hour ago, Space Cowboy said: Racism exists everywhere and i'd say europe is more racist than the US. But americans for some reason are obsessed with bringing race into every conversation. I just can't understand why americans are so obsessed with race. We all are people after all. This ~conversation~ has everything to do with race, why are you playing dumb "We are all people after all" what kind of all lives matter nonsense 1
Cain Posted July 7 Posted July 7 7 minutes ago, Space Cowboy said: Racism has always existed in human history: racism, xenophobia, ethnocentrism, prejudice and discrimination based on ethnic or cultural differences have been present in almost all societies since ancient times. Racism is still alive because unfortunately it's human nature and humanity f*cking sucks, not because colonial europe invented it. I obviously condemn colonialism and the slavetrade period. But current europeans have nothing to do with europe's colonial past and they don't have to accept responsability or feel sorry for what happened. It has not and any historian and sociologist will tell you. The current race system that was built during the transatlantic slavetrade period in which black people (which was not a category used or way of seeing people before said period) are essentialized down to their assigned race and seen as inherently inferior to white people (idem) IS very much an invention that is still alive today and that we (white Europeans) are still profiting off of, and therefor it IS our business to undo it 1 3
The7thStranger Posted July 7 Posted July 7 (edited) 49 minutes ago, Tropez said: People do this everywhere. In Canada if you critique how the government runs things or society. People will say "But in the US". People need to seriously take a look at their country and not just the US or somewhere else to diminish the issue. Agreed. The only reason the US maintains its level of cultural influence is because others allow the US to have it. 38 minutes ago, Space Cowboy said: But current europeans have nothing to do with europe's colonial past and they don't have to accept responsability or feel sorry for what happened. This is incredibly short-sighted. Europe is only the way it is today because of the foundation laid centuries prior. It is on every European alive to ensure that the atrocities their ancestors committed never occur again. Burying your head in the sand about the very significant problems on the continent or pointing the finger elsewhere is in direct opposition of that goal. Edited July 7 by The7thStranger 1
The7thStranger Posted July 7 Posted July 7 1 hour ago, Virgos Groove said: Collective guilt =/= individual guilt. Pretty much all the colonizer countries still haven't reckoned with their past. They still have stolen artifacts in museums, teach a whitewashed version of history, idolize colonial figures and, in the case of France and the UK, still have actual colonies. And while Germany has made efforts on an academic and legal level to prevent a second Holocaust, we're now in an era where the AfD have gained in popularity to a scary degree while the government has done little to help disband them. 2
ATRL Moderator Azulito Posted July 7 ATRL Moderator Posted July 7 2 hours ago, Space Cowboy said: Why are americans so obsessed with race? What does the US have to do with this topic? The OP literally says they're from the UK. 18 minutes ago, Space Cowboy said: Racism has always existed in human history: racism, xenophobia, ethnocentrism, prejudice and discrimination based on ethnic or cultural differences have been present in almost all societies since ancient times. Racism is still alive because unfortunately it's human nature and humanity f*cking sucks, not because colonial europe invented it. I obviously condemn colonialism and the slavetrade period. But current europeans have nothing to do with europe's colonial past and they don't have to accept responsability or feel sorry for what happened. Current Europeans uphold a political/economic structure that was established through exploiting the Global South during colonialism. What has the UK/Spain/France/etc done to address any of this? Acting like all effects of colonialism immediately ended when these countries became independent is extremely ignorant. 5
Graves Posted July 7 Posted July 7 A lot of Europeans carry themselves with a huge amount of arrogance surrounding their identities and brag about a supposed superiority to big and uncouth America. It stifles them from being able to do any reflection or critical thinking when it comes to any issue that would challenge their worldview. To Europeans, the fact that the cops don't routinely murder black people in their countries means that they've beaten racism, and they won't take any comments on that. 2
Dante Silva Posted July 7 Posted July 7 I'm not a football fan and whilst it wasn't obvious from the thread title the topic of "race" was going to be framed in context of the football world I'm aware there is an ingrained culture of toxic behaviour from the fans of that sport which goes back decades. To many British people football fans are perceived as a bunch of feral yobs that people cross the street to avoid so I wouldn't equate the average Brit with a football fan. The sport merely has an increased profile presently because of some big international competition.
CaptainMusic Posted July 7 Posted July 7 Lol at some white brits saying "colour didn't cross their mind" when watching it. When I heard it went to penalties and FOUR players were black, I immediately thought about the racism they would receive if they didn't score. How can you not after the racism they received last year. Clowns. White people here just don't like to talk about racism and prefer to pretend it doesn't exist, I remember when I talked to my white coworker about a racist incident and she looked so uncomfortable and quickly tried to change the conversation 3
Headlock Posted July 7 Posted July 7 1 hour ago, Space Cowboy said: But current europeans have nothing to do with europe's colonial past and they don't have to accept responsability or feel sorry for what happened. What the f*ck?
Capris Groove Posted July 7 Posted July 7 It's England we're talking about here, the most successful colonizer in history, ever. And by a wide margin.
Robert Posted July 8 Posted July 8 Honestly, I think most people don't like to acknowledge they have privilege and think that it implies they have an easy life. A lot of Brits have a chip on their shoulder. Football fans tend to attract the most toxic people. Look at their actions in Germany. Absolutely disgraceful.
Gesamtkunstwerk Posted July 8 Posted July 8 This got so many factors, it's hard to simplify honestly, but: - White people, European, US or other, feel uncomfortable talking about race because a lot of them immediately feel like they're being personally attacked - White Europeans, more specifically, don't like it because a lot of them perceive society as non-racist, and challenging that view point usually results in the point above These threads usually result in Americans and Europeans fighting over who's the most racist, when they both are Just in different ways that are hard to compare due to different circumstances.
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