discussion Do you view masculinity as a performance?

[Europe]

Craig A Williams, a historical academic researcher pointed out a common finding of anthropological studies: it is a widespread phenomenon for societies to think that masculinity is an achieved status, and a tenuous accomplishment. Boys must be made men, while girls just become women.

 

There are constant struggles involved not only in attaining masculinity—one thinks of the often painful and always challenging rites of passage by means of which boys are made men—but also in maintaining one's masculine status. Threats lurk everywhere, and a man can all too easily slip and fall. And if he does, according to the relentlessly binary logic of this system he is behaving like a woman. Indeed an insinuation or, worse, outright declaration that a man is "not acting like a man" or is "acting like a woman" is one of the most devastating weapons that can be used by masculine cultures around the world in their campaign to mold "real men" and keep them that way. To describe a woman as "not acting like a woman" or as "acting like a man" is another matter entirely, and, in fact, is often a compliment.

 

If a man loses control in just one aspect of his life—if he displays any one of the effeminate traits or any combination of them—he is susceptible to being called effeminate, and can be suspected of any other effeminate traits.

 

Do you agree with these takes?

 

[Capris Groove]

No more than femininity I guess. Yes personas are a real thing.

[ThousandMiles]

baby im not reading all that. 

 

but yes femininity and masculinity is all a performance. 

[dumbsparce]

It's a case by case thing. Personally I don't feel like I have to prove I'm a "man" whatever tf this means. Some others may feel that pressure and amp up their masculinity.

 

This is somewhat unrelated, but masculinity being a literal performance used to be a very real thing amongst some Balkan societies:

 

 

Quite the disturbing discovery.

Edited July 5 by dumbsparce

[bielneira]

oii é pra ler? 

[Wicked]

1 hour ago, AbeHicks said:

To describe a woman as "not acting like a woman" or as "acting like a man" is another matter entirely, and, in fact, is often a compliment.

I'm gonna give you some insight as a masculine straight woman: this isn't true. It's usually an insult and I get lesbian slurs thrown at me regularly. 

[AMIT]

Yes and it sucks. It's all fake and superficial and patriarchy hurts men by denying them of their emotions and shaming them into comforming to the (toxic) standard. It's a major dividing tactic crucial to the maintenance of the deeply hierarchical mode of living we've been forced to accept since god knows when. Of course some benefit from it and thus want to keep it that way, but overall this type of system is inherently against diversity and thus always a bad thing. 

[Loca]

Life is performance. Gay men need to let masculine men breathe a bit.

[Bitter Aging Twink]

ATRL is probably the last place you'll get an accurate answer to this question.  Most people here are queer men who view masculinity as either something sexual or as a threat.  The thing I've come to realize is that nobody even knows what masculinity is anymore.  If you're a thinking person, you've probably noticed that part of the reason why the Alt-Right and Neo-Conservative movements have gained such traction amongst straight men in recent years is because with every advance made by women and LGBT people, straight men feel increasingly "emasculated."  It's as if their only avenue to "being masculine" is to be stronger and more powerful than everybody else in the room.  I was at a party this week and I tried to make conversation with everybody, regardless of their gender, but I've realized in recent years that making conversation with straight men is like pulling teeth.  There's so much posturing, groupthink, little (if no) vulnerability, an unwillingness to look weak, and an overall sense that there's a very limited set of actions and behaviors they are willing to explore.

 

Growing up, I always thought of masculinity as being a small box.  There are only so many behaviors, attitudes, and emotions that are allowed within the box.  If you stray outside the box, even a little bit, your masculinity is immediately questioned.  Usually the first question is "Are you gay?" which is so stupid, as your sexual orientation isn't really the strongest indicator of your masculinity.  I've known "beta" straight males who are soft-spoken and passive who let their wives run the show and do everything for them while they sit at home and play video games.  And then I've met hundreds of gay men who are macho, athletic gymbros with deep voices, muscles, and chestfuls of body hair.  Yet, even in the year 2024, the former group is still considered "more masculine" than the latter, simply because they like ******* women.  It just seems to me that in the year 2024, there's still this outdated notion that the only way for a man to be truly masculine is to stick his genitals into a woman's and to tell everybody about it (either by bragging about it or by having kids).  It's so outdated, and we as a society need to redefine what masculinity is.  Masculinity to me is about being brave, protective, and assertive.  Gay men can be all of those things, too, and in my experience, we are often even more brave, protective, and assertive than straight men.  Straight men's masculinity is extremely fragile, like a china vase, while gay men's masculinity is warm and flexible, like a…well nevermind. 

 

Tldr: I love being gay, and I will never perform some corny, outdated stereotype of heteronormative masculinity for anyone 

[Trent W]

Masculinity is not bad, is absolutely needed just as much as femininity

 

These are not performances are personal traits.

 

Gays also need to stop acting like Masculinity is toxic, masculinity and toxic masculinity are completely different things

 

Also this toxic trend in this forum of making fun of masculine gay men needs to stop, the idea that every gay men is feminine is as toxic as "toxic masculinity"

[shimind]

The concept of masculinity as a performance suggests that traditional masculine norms and behaviors are social constructs, enacted and performed by individuals to conform to cultural expectations.

 

This perspective is rooted in gender studies and queer theory, which argue that gender is not an inherent trait, but a social role that is performed and produced through cultural norms, practices, and expectations.

 

In this sense, masculinity is seen as a performance that involves enacting certain traits, behaviors, and characteristics, such as strength, stoicism, and dominance, to conform to traditional masculine ideals.

 

This perspective highlights that gender is not fixed or essential, but rather a fluid and dynamic performance that is shaped by cultural, social, and historical contexts.

 

Some key figures associated with this perspective include:

 

- Judith Butler

- Eve Kosofsky Sedgwick

- Erving Goffman

- Raewyn Connell

 

Their work has contributed to a deeper understanding of gender as a social construct, challenging traditional notions of masculinity and femininity.

Edited July 5 by shimind

[Revolution]

would judith butler lie

[welham]

the more i interact with more people, the more I notice that is absolutely a performance for at least +90 percent of men -gay, bi, or straight. You can see men actively pushing/pressuring/forcing themselves into it when you interact with enough men and learn to see the signs. 

[welham]

2 hours ago, shimind said:

The concept of masculinity as a performance suggests that traditional masculine norms and behaviors are social constructs, enacted and performed by individuals to conform to cultural expectations.

 

This perspective is rooted in gender studies and queer theory, which argue that gender is not an inherent trait, but a social role that is performed and produced through cultural norms, practices, and expectations.

 

In this sense, masculinity is seen as a performance that involves enacting certain traits, behaviors, and characteristics, such as strength, stoicism, and dominance, to conform to traditional masculine ideals.

 

This perspective highlights that gender is not fixed or essential, but rather a fluid and dynamic performance that is shaped by cultural, social, and historical contexts.

 

Some key figures associated with this perspective include:

 

- Judith Butler

- Eve Kosofsky Sedgwick

- Erving Goffman

- Raewyn Connell

 

Their work has contributed to a deeper understanding of gender as a social construct, challenging traditional notions of masculinity and femininity.

What in the chatgpt

[alexrex]

While it's true we have both testosterone and estrogen (and that vastly impacts our behaviour), masculinity as a concept is pretty much a social construct.

 

It's quite silly in my opinion, but sadly it makes so many people insecure about themselves and leads to many men to supress their emotions because "a man should not show his emotions". Then that's why depression kicks in and mental health takes a toll at certain point of life on so many men. 

[Europe]

4 hours ago, Wicked said:

I'm gonna give you some insight as a masculine straight woman: this isn't true. It's usually an insult and I get lesbian slurs thrown at me regularly. 

Well, the scientific research says it's very often a compliment

[Europe]

3 hours ago, Bitter Aging Twink said:

ATRL is probably the last place you'll get an accurate answer to this question.  Most people here are queer men who view masculinity as either something sexual or as a threat.  The thing I've come to realize is that nobody even knows what masculinity is anymore.  

 

Nah it's fun to get the "I ain't reading all that" responses when you write more than 3 words

Quote

It's as if their only avenue to "being masculine" is to be stronger and more powerful than everybody else in the room. 

According to the book the excerpt in the OP is from, the key element of masculinity is dominion over others. So yes.

Quote

There's so much posturing, groupthink, little (if no) vulnerability, an unwillingness to look weak, and an overall sense that there's a very limited set of actions and behaviors they are willing to explore.

Yeah that is also in line with the research which says they must limit their self expression to maintain an image.

Quote

If you stray outside the box, even a little bit, your masculinity is immediately questioned.  Usually the first question is "Are you gay?

Apparently even back in ancient Rome they policed men's behavior this way. They just used a different word for it since the concept of gay did not exist.

Quote

Masculinity to me is about being brave, protective, and assertive. 

Oh fun, your line of thinking is very on point. The book talks about this: basically no matter how brave, virtuous, intelligent, protective etc. you are, it does not matter, if you are having sex in the non-normative way all of it is completely negated in the eyes of society by our not accepted sexual behavior.

[CottageHore]

The way I see it, masculinity and femininity as we know it is just an extension of ego, collective ego and our individual egos. It's a projection of rules and ideas we've been conditioned to accept as social norms that define us. 
 

And especially in patriarchal societies, masculinity is most definitely a performance. It's something we can consciously assess and say "that's true masculinity" or "that isn't masculine enough" so it's most definitely a performance 

[CottageHore]

3 hours ago, shimind said:

The concept of masculinity as a performance suggests that traditional masculine norms and behaviors are social constructs, enacted and performed by individuals to conform to cultural expectations.

 

This perspective is rooted in gender studies and queer theory, which argue that gender is not an inherent trait, but a social role that is performed and produced through cultural norms, practices, and expectations.

 

In this sense, masculinity is seen as a performance that involves enacting certain traits, behaviors, and characteristics, such as strength, stoicism, and dominance, to conform to traditional masculine ideals.

 

This perspective highlights that gender is not fixed or essential, but rather a fluid and dynamic performance that is shaped by cultural, social, and historical contexts.

 

Some key figures associated with this perspective include:

 

- Judith Butler

- Eve Kosofsky Sedgwick

- Erving Goffman

- Raewyn Connell

 

Their work has contributed to a deeper understanding of gender as a social construct, challenging traditional notions of masculinity and femininity.

Did ChatGPT write this?

[EnigmaticAndroid]

47 minutes ago, welham said:

the more i interact with more people, the more I notice that is absolutely a performance for at least +90 percent of men -gay, bi, or straight. You can see men actively pushing/pressuring/forcing themselves into it when you interact with enough men and learn to see the signs. 

Yup. I work in the back of the restaurant and some of the men I work with are so obviously performing all the time 

 

They yell and act physically grandiose to assert dominance, they push their voices down lower than they naturally speak and put on a growl, they constantly talk about sex (and make passes at the underage staff ). Its so weird and over-the-top. Literally grown men having a pissing contest.

[Aethereal]

Among gays, yes. There is a reason why both masc and fem like pop girls and very few straight men do.

Most of us have internalized femininity, even those that appear masc. Our talk and voice is much "softer" on average.

[EnigmaticAndroid]

Yes. I'm of the viewpoint that very few (if any) attributes are truly male or female. We are just people acting. Some are not wholly defined by their gender, sexuality, race, etc. and some are. The expectation that men are "this" and women are "that" is just that- an expectation. A preconceived notion based on eons of social conditioning by people who probably don't have our individual needs or best interests in mind. And while masculinity in itself isn't toxic, judging people by how much they are or aren't masculine is toxic and hypermasculine traits oftentimes are too. And all of that hurts everyone. 

 

Honestly, having known men throughout my life clearly struggle with the crushing weight of masculinity and the Pandora's Box that comes with it, I have no interest in holding myself strictly to it. For me, I don't believe that's healthy.

 

At the end of the day, I can only be who I am and act in ways that feel authentic to me as a person first. How much that does or doesn't align with the baggage of societal gender identity can't be my weight to bear. The point of my existence isn't to validate other people's worldviews and opinions, or to align with what others automatically expect.

Edited July 5 by EnigmaticAndroid

[Archetype]

Yes and no.  I think there are both performative and also innate traits that contribute to the stereotype.  I also think gender stereotypes are overly linked to sexuality stereotypes, as in, it's a huge misconception even in the gay community that "most gay men have more feminine traits than straight men", especially when those "feminine" traits are considered normal non-gendered behavior in other parts of the world.  TLDR it's more of a personality thing to me and I simply accept people for how they present themselves.

[єѕℓαм]

Depends on the person really 

for some it's a performance and for others it's not

[Onyxmage]

When gays do it? Absolutely.