hugoflegend Posted July 22 Posted July 22 20 minutes ago, on the line said: It is telling you have a general lack of understanding what it's like in these cities, so any other essays you'd like to compose are irrelevant. I was literally in SF earlier this month. I live in a city with it's own sizable homelessness problem. Why do you assume anyone who disagrees with you has never been to the west coast? It's funny to see people in this thread make thoughtful points on the issue, and you just spam "but you don't live there" as if that is a worthwhile response to any points that have been made. It's not. No one is saying homelessness is not a problem in these cities, they are saying criminalizing them is not a smart solution. Is this a short enough response for you to handle? 1
on the line Posted July 22 Posted July 22 1 minute ago, hugoflegend said: I was literally in SF earlier this month. I live in a city with it's own sizable homelessness problem. Why do you assume anyone who disagrees with you has never been to the west coast? It's funny to see people in this thread make thoughtful points on the issue, and you just spam "but you don't live there" as if that is a worthwhile response to any points that have been made. It's not. No one is saying homelessness is not a problem in these cities, they are saying criminalizing them is not a smart solution. Is this a short enough response for you to handle? Visiting a city is not the same as living in it and experiencing it day in and day out, but glad you got a tiny glimpse of what it's like here as that's more than others! What city do you live in? Is it one that other cities/states are busing their most violent homeless people to on a daily basis? What do you propose is the solution for people who refuse any semblance of law and order (ie, smoking meth in a closed public transportation with children on board)?
perfect blue Posted July 22 Posted July 22 2 minutes ago, hugoflegend said: I was literally in SF earlier this month. I live in a city with it's own sizable homelessness problem. Why do you assume anyone who disagrees with you has never been to the west coast? It's funny to see people in this thread make thoughtful points on the issue, and you just spam "but you don't live there" as if that is a worthwhile response to any points that have been made. It's not. No one is saying homelessness is not a problem in these cities, they are saying criminalizing them is not a smart solution. Is this a short enough response for you to handle? At this point people just want to feel safe in their own communities. Why should familles have to endure drug use, crime, and public health crises at the expense of catering to a small troubled population that refuses help?
hugoflegend Posted July 22 Posted July 22 26 minutes ago, perfect blue said: Real quick: what city and state do you live in? 🎤 11 minutes ago, on the line said: Visiting a city is not the same as living in it and experiencing it day in and day out, but glad you got a tiny glimpse of what it's like here as that's more than others! What city do you live in? Is it one that other cities/states are busing their most violent homeless people to on a daily basis? What do you propose is the solution for people who refuse any semblance of law and order (ie, smoking meth in a closed public transportation with children on board)? 8 minutes ago, perfect blue said: At this point people just want to feel safe in their own communities. Why should familles have to endure drug use, crime, and public health crises at the expense of catering to a small troubled population that refuses help? It is generally a bad idea to give out info about where you live on the internet, . I don't know why you seem to think this is a "gotcha", when it is the silliest take. I could live on the moon and still know that criminalizing the homeless is a both inhumane and stupid. Personal experiences do not outweigh research on the issue, which does not, surprise, surprise, suggest harsher legal punishment as a road to improvement. I suggest reading UCSF's 2023 statewide study on homelessness for a better understanding. No one is asking families to endure drugs, crime, and public health crises. Except for the people responsible for making housing unaffordable in the first place, the people who have made mental health resources harder to access, or the people who refuse to pay employees livable wages, so why not take it up with them? They are causing the problem, they are who you should be mad at, not their victims. As for the drug use, aren't most drugs already illegal? Meth is illegal. Has criminalizing drug use fixed the problem? No. There are still people taking meth on the bus even though it illegal, and yet you want me to believe that criminalizing homelessness is going to be the magic cure? Try to have some consistent logic, if you are complaining about rampant drug use (even though it is already criminal), you should follow the logic that making homelessness criminal won't work. 1
on the line Posted July 22 Posted July 22 4 minutes ago, hugoflegend said: It is generally a bad idea to give out info about where you live on the internet, . I don't know why you seem to think this is a "gotcha", when it is the silliest take. I could live on the moon and still know that criminalizing the homeless is a both inhumane and stupid. Personal experiences do not outweigh research on the issue, which does not, surprise, surprise, suggest harsher legal punishment as a road to improvement. I suggest reading UCSF's 2023 statewide study on homelessness for a better understanding. No one is asking families to endure drugs, crime, and public health crises. Except for the people responsible for making housing unaffordable in the first place, the people who have made mental health resources harder to access, or the people who refuse to pay employees livable wages, so why not take it up with them? They are causing the problem, they are who you should be mad at, not their victims. As for the drug use, aren't most drugs already illegal? Meth is illegal. Has criminalizing drug use fixed the problem? No. There are still people taking meth on the bus even though it illegal, and yet you want me to believe that criminalizing homelessness is going to be the magic cure? Try to have some consistent logic, if you are complaining about rampant drug use (even though it is already criminal), you should follow the logic that making homelessness criminal won't work. Ask Portland why they rescinded and reversed their legalization of small amounts of drugs and why the citizens applauded the decision after they were the ones who overwhelmingly voted to legalize it. 1
Communion Posted July 22 Posted July 22 (edited) 1 hour ago, hawx23 said: Are you housing- The entire point of this conversation is that *you* do not want the government to provide housing to homeless people and instead incarcerate them. Do you hope this right wing attempt to individualize the concept of housing would work on the average person? Can I not want universal healthcare if I didn't know how to bandage a bleeding wound like you're suggesting one cannot want universal housing if they themselves don't know how to build a house? I want the government to use the surplus of housing supply we have to house people. Why don't you? Edited July 22 by Communion
hawx23 Posted July 23 Posted July 23 (edited) 3 hours ago, Communion said: The entire point of this conversation is that *you* do not want the government to provide housing to homeless people and instead incarcerate them. Do you hope this right wing attempt to individualize the concept of housing would work on the average person? Can I not want universal healthcare if I didn't know how to bandage a bleeding wound like you're suggesting one cannot want universal housing if they themselves don't know how to build a house? I want the government to use the surplus of housing supply we have to house people. Why don't you? I would much like the government to do that. But the government is not doing that. So the current alternative is nothing — which you apparently prefer. I'd prefer the alternative for them to actually do something, which is to enforce existing laws with incrementally progressive sanctions that could encourage a segment of that homeless population to go to shelters. Edited July 23 by hawx23
Communion Posted July 23 Posted July 23 (edited) 4 minutes ago, hawx23 said: I would much like the government to do that. But the government is not doing that. Because rich people like you exile and attack progressives who dare to see the unhoused as human beings. Someone on here literally mocked the suggestion that a homeless person can survive the night in cold weather is more important than if a sidewalk looks tidy or not. 3 minutes ago, hawx23 said: go to shelters Shelters are not housing. Would you give up where you live to live in a shelter? Edited July 23 by Communion
MP3 Posted July 23 Posted July 23 Homelessness I think is the hardest societal situation to resolve tbh
discosean Posted July 23 Posted July 23 On 6/29/2024 at 11:39 AM, Communion said: There's people refusing free or affordable dignified private housing? Yes because some do not want to improve their lives. Some don't want to live by society's rules and conventions.
Raver Posted July 23 Posted July 23 6 hours ago, hugoflegend said: As for the drug use, aren't most drugs already illegal? Meth is illegal. Has criminalizing drug use fixed the problem? No. There are still people taking meth on the bus even though it illegal, and yet you want me to believe that criminalizing homelessness is going to be the magic cure? Try to have some consistent logic, if you are complaining about rampant drug use (even though it is already criminal), you should follow the logic that making homelessness criminal won't work. San Francisco has a drug crisis and drugs use is decriminalized there. You can use meth in public and will probably get a citation if anything. They even had drug injection sites
hawx23 Posted July 23 Posted July 23 3 hours ago, Communion said: Because rich people like you exile and attack progressives who dare to see the unhoused as human beings. Someone on here literally mocked the suggestion that a homeless person can survive the night in cold weather is more important than if a sidewalk looks tidy or not. Shelters are not housing. Would you give up where you live to live in a shelter? And people like you offer no real solutions, because you don't have to deal with the real day to day consequences of living near a homelessness blight. 1
hugoflegend Posted July 23 Posted July 23 9 hours ago, on the line said: Ask Portland why they rescinded and reversed their legalization of small amounts of drugs and why the citizens applauded the decision after they were the ones who overwhelmingly voted to legalize it. The point I am making, criminalizing drugs did NOT equal fixing rampant drug use. As you have repeatedly stated yourself, 'there are people leaving drug paraphernalia all over the sidewalks, and doing meth on the bus in front of children'. So is drugs being illegal effective in stopping the problem? By your own examples, no they haven't. If making alcohol illegal in the prohibition era did not work to stop people drinking, and the law cracking down on drugs has not worked to stop drug use, why do you think making being homeless criminal is going to stop the problem of homelessness? You state that these west coast cities are struggling over and over, as if anyone disagrees, but no one is denying that. The disagreement is the METHOD of fixing it, which you have made no cogent points about.
hugoflegend Posted July 23 Posted July 23 (edited) 4 hours ago, Raver said: San Francisco has a drug crisis and drugs use is decriminalized there. You can use meth in public and will probably get a citation if anything. They even had drug injection sites I was not aware of that, thanks for the info! I looked into it, and it seems it is not technically decriminalized. It is a misdemeanor there, but cops don't tend to intervene whatsoever, so it might as well be decriminalized. It's a tough issue. I don't mean to derail the thread into being about drugs, but there has been plenty of research on the awful consequences that criminalizing drugs have had. There is a great article on it by The Human Rights Watch, that you could look into if you wanted to. Edited July 23 by hugoflegend
on the line Posted July 23 Posted July 23 6 hours ago, hugoflegend said: I was not aware of that, thanks for the info! I looked into it, and it seems it is not technically decriminalized. It is a misdemeanor there, but cops don't tend to intervene whatsoever, so it might as well be decriminalized. It's a tough issue. I don't mean to derail the thread into being about drugs, but there has been plenty of research on the awful consequences that criminalizing drugs have had. There is a great article on it by The Human Rights Watch, that you could look into if you wanted to. I agree the war on criminalization doesn't work, but Portland proved a real-time study on where we are at right now in the US, and we are so far from being in a spot to actually implement these policies. The result of legalizing small amounts of drugs led to an even bigger exodus of the dying downtown with literal open air drug markets and a record number of overdoses. It turned the situation violently worse for both the houseless and the locals (who are far from the "ultra wealthy" trope ya'll use to justify this behavior in SF), and something needed to be done immediately to start righting the course, and that is why they repealed the law. The same can be applied to the homeless situation in many of theses same cities. I'm not saying it's a one bandaid fits all situation, but something has to be done now. Cheering for the status quo is so ill-informed. Even if the ideal situation were to happen, it would take years and years and years if not decades and decades for us to see real change. I don't see any solutions being offered by any of you for the immediate future.
hugoflegend Posted July 23 Posted July 23 2 hours ago, on the line said: I agree the war on criminalization doesn't work, but Portland proved a real-time study on where we are at right now in the US, and we are so far from being in a spot to actually implement these policies. The result of legalizing small amounts of drugs led to an even bigger exodus of the dying downtown with literal open air drug markets and a record number of overdoses. It turned the situation violently worse for both the houseless and the locals (who are far from the "ultra wealthy" trope ya'll use to justify this behavior in SF), and something needed to be done immediately to start righting the course, and that is why they repealed the law. The same can be applied to the homeless situation in many of theses same cities. I'm not saying it's a one bandaid fits all situation, but something has to be done now. Cheering for the status quo is so ill-informed. Even if the ideal situation were to happen, it would take years and years and years if not decades and decades for us to see real change. I don't see any solutions being offered by any of you for the immediate future. Yeah, we can all agree that change needs to happen, but the trick is these problems are the result of many years and they will take just as many years to fix. My worry is that these quick fix policies that focus on legal punishments are not going to help at all, and not make any real difference. I would like to read research on Portland, would you send it to me? I don't remember saying anything about the "ultra wealthy" that must have been someone else. What I am saying is that the impossible low wage and price hiking situations are big reasons for the worsening situation. I want policies to check those issues instead, and I think that would have better results. I suggested looking at this UCSF article in a prior post, 'California Statewide Study Investigates Causes and Impacts of Homelessness', which you can Google if you want to. it has a list of things that need to be done to solve the issue. I don't want to list all that here, because it would cross into essay territory for real.
on the line Posted July 24 Posted July 24 22 hours ago, hugoflegend said: Yeah, we can all agree that change needs to happen, but the trick is these problems are the result of many years and they will take just as many years to fix. My worry is that these quick fix policies that focus on legal punishments are not going to help at all, and not make any real difference. I would like to read research on Portland, would you send it to me? I don't remember saying anything about the "ultra wealthy" that must have been someone else. What I am saying is that the impossible low wage and price hiking situations are big reasons for the worsening situation. I want policies to check those issues instead, and I think that would have better results. I suggested looking at this UCSF article in a prior post, 'California Statewide Study Investigates Causes and Impacts of Homelessness', which you can Google if you want to. it has a list of things that need to be done to solve the issue. I don't want to list all that here, because it would cross into essay territory for real. I'm not in Portland but apparently Meta thinks I now am interested in "Portland and homeless" because this showed up in my feed, but I think it's exemplary of what I've been saying. A mom seeing her daughter on the street, trying to get her help, giving her places to live multiple times, and the daughter still choosing to live on the streets saying: "For me, it's just like... I'm just not ready to like, already sober up because I've already been there; I don't feel like this is the lowest point." While this is obviously not every homeless person's story, it is a similar story for many, many of the homeless in west coast cities. These are the people who, if given the chance at housing and reentering society, still refuse multiple times that I do agree with that they should lose their freedom until they are able to make better choices. I, and so so many others, are done enabling people to destroy public spaces and a sense of security. That's not how a functioning society works. https://www.kgw.com/article/news/local/the-story/parents-portland-homeless-respond-multnomah-county-deflection-program/283-004490df-844c-4044-912f-b3aa7d4f0813
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