TheHanyo Posted June 13 Share Posted June 13 Just now, Communion said: Wealth*, not opportunity. 50k Americans die a year due to not being able to afford healthcare. A figure that was central to the largely contentious fight in 2020 for the Democratic Party. A fight that has largely been sidelined because the Democratic president says he would veto a law that made healthcare a right in the US. For reference, there are more uninsured or under-insured Americans than there exists people in many large nations. Why are millions of people trying to get into the US, then, if not for the opportunity? It seems like you are making perfect the enemy of good. No one said the US is perfect-- no nation is. But my entire point is that people would be in the streets protesting for healthcare, food, jobs, etc. if it were an actual crisis. But it's clearly not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAP Posted June 13 Share Posted June 13 This is why I still have hope for America. We may have fallen behind on a lot of things, but at least we'll still be on the cutting edge of worker exploitation 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vermillion Posted June 13 Share Posted June 13 19 minutes ago, TheHanyo said: Why are millions of people trying to get into the US, then, if not for the opportunity? It seems like you are making perfect the enemy of good. No one said the US is perfect-- no nation is. But my entire point is that people would be in the streets protesting for healthcare, food, jobs, etc. if it were an actual crisis. But it's clearly not. Lack of protest is your anger and disillusionment barometer? Really? Not to mention the dozens of protests, if we follow that logic, on unionizing and proper wages across the country the last few years. Also, "be thankful you aren't in Haiti or Honduras" isn't the incredible argument you think it is. Your framing of wanting healthcare for every citizen being the "perfect" side of that equation is part of the problem and comes from a place of privilege. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheHanyo Posted June 13 Share Posted June 13 21 minutes ago, Espresso said: Lack of protest is your anger and disillusionment barometer? Really? Yes, as it has been in every society for all of history. 22 minutes ago, Espresso said: Also, "be thankful you aren't in Haiti or Honduras" isn't the incredible argument you think it is. I didn't say that? But if I did, I'd be saying it about The UK, Italy and Japan right now: all developed nations whose economies are shrinking, pay is going down, healthcare getting worse, and inflation much worse than the US. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vermillion Posted June 13 Share Posted June 13 7 minutes ago, TheHanyo said: Yes, as it has been in every society for all of history. I didn't say that? But if I did, I'd be saying it about The UK, Italy and Japan right now: all developed nations whose economies are shrinking, pay is going down, healthcare getting worse, and inflation much worse than the US. Besides needing childcare and to actually work preventing folks from getting out with signs etc. off the clock I suppose I'd ask what your barometer for mass protest on an issue is - George Floyd levels? There have been issue based protests outside of just policing in this country - they just haven't gotten as much coverage. As for the other point, that's the inference I took, but again, I take issue with the notion that of the majority of the working class in this country being fine with the status quo currently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheHanyo Posted June 13 Share Posted June 13 35 minutes ago, Espresso said: Besides needing childcare and to actually work preventing folks from getting out with signs etc. off the clock I suppose I'd ask what your barometer for mass protest on an issue is - George Floyd levels? There have been issue based protests outside of just policing in this country - they just haven't gotten as much coverage. As for the other point, that's the inference I took, but again, I take issue with the notion that of the majority of the working class in this country being fine with the status quo currently. "People are busy working and making money, so that's why they're not protesting." Girl... that's a good thing lmao. Civil unrest happens when people have no jobs or food and they get desperate and take to the streets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vermillion Posted June 13 Share Posted June 13 20 minutes ago, TheHanyo said: "People are busy working and making money, so that's why they're not protesting." Girl... that's a good thing lmao. Civil unrest happens when people have no jobs or food and they get desperate and take to the streets. Again, your threshold for success is avoiding literal homelessness. That's part of the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheHanyo Posted June 14 Share Posted June 14 17 hours ago, Espresso said: Again, your threshold for success is avoiding literal homelessness. That's part of the problem. And your problem is that you think Daddy Government should pay for everything so you don't have to do anything yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiidish Posted June 14 Share Posted June 14 19 hours ago, TheHanyo said: There wouldn't be hundreds of thousands of people trying to desperately enter the US via the border right now if there wasn't an insane amount of opportunity here. Kinda tired of the insane privilege that Americans have and they don't even realize it. I mean, if the #1 cause being pushed by young people right now is about a foreign conflict they don't even have to fight in-- and not healthcare, jobs, food, etc., then I'd say the US is in pretty damn good shape lmao. Insane privilege and it's just an christofascist nationalist late stage capitalist state on the verge of civil war and complete economic collapse from the wealth bubble that isn't slowing down. Refugees and Immigrants coming from worse place doesn't mean this country is "good" btw. It just means that it's an option that people are choosing. The land of opportunity has long been a facade and the "American Dream" is dead. The marginal tiny percent of "Pull yourself up by your bootstrappers" that make it and become the same hyper elite that contribute to the hellscape that is this country aren't the American Dream either. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiidish Posted June 14 Share Posted June 14 17 hours ago, TheHanyo said: "People are busy working and making money, so that's why they're not protesting." Girl... that's a good thing lmao. Civil unrest happens when people have no jobs or food and they get desperate and take to the streets. 16 minutes ago, TheHanyo said: And your problem is that you think Daddy Government should pay for everything so you don't have to do anything yourself. Yeah you're a lost cause. No need to respond to my previous comment. You see people as objects and roles (property) meant to perform and not as individuals that should have certain rights and protections. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheHanyo Posted June 14 Share Posted June 14 27 minutes ago, Chiidish said: Insane privilege and it's just an christofascist nationalist late stage capitalist state on the verge of civil war and complete economic collapse from the wealth bubble that isn't slowing down. That word salad of internet activism is alarming. I'm begging you to get off the internet and go touch grass. You're not living in the real world. 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiidish Posted June 14 Share Posted June 14 1 hour ago, TheHanyo said: That word salad of internet activism is alarming. I'm begging you to get off the internet and go touch grass. You're not living in the real world. Yeah the internet activism being just basic sociology, not even digging into the fact that I have a whole degree in it watching this failed state on its positional death throes…or that I work in the nonprofit space and am directly exposed to these very basic concepts on a day to day basis seeing as our government cannot and will not provide for the common person. But sure I'm not living in the real world. Let's continue buying into pipe dreams that rely on exploiting people and extracting the very essence of being a human, got it 👍 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Communion Posted June 14 Share Posted June 14 2 hours ago, TheHanyo said: And your problem is that you think Daddy Government should pay for everything so you don't have to do anything yourself. Do people deserve to die if they're poor and get sick? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vermillion Posted June 14 Share Posted June 14 2 hours ago, Chiidish said: Yeah you're a lost cause. No need to respond to my previous comment. You see people as objects and roles (property) meant to perform and not as individuals that should have certain rights and protections. 1 minute ago, Communion said: Do people deserve to die if they're poor and get sick? I'm glad I waited to respond and now won't bother. But I would really like the latter question answered as well @TheHanyo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheHanyo Posted June 14 Share Posted June 14 1 hour ago, Communion said: Do people deserve to die if they're poor and get sick? 1 hour ago, Espresso said: I'm glad I waited to respond and now won't bother. But I would really like the latter question answered as well @TheHanyo Why do you both assume I'm not for universal access to affordable healthcare? Like what does that have to do with the economic strength of the US vs other developed countries? I don't think you understand the reason healthcare is out of control is the country is because everyone is living an extremely unhealthy lifestyle (car culture) of NO exercise and diets full with nothing but sugar. You want to get healthcare under control, start there. Throwing more money at it has done NOTHING-- and yes, the US spends more money on healthcare than any other nation on earth. And you think more money will fix it? You're dead wrong. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheHanyo Posted June 14 Share Posted June 14 1 hour ago, Chiidish said: I have a whole degree Degrees are not the real world, babe. You wasted your money and now I'm guessing you want the government to pay for your degree lol. Again, I say: go outside. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiidish Posted June 14 Share Posted June 14 (edited) You're discussing issues that are pre-determinants of health a key method for understanding and aiding preventative healthcare measures…which are notably solved (researched and proven) with literally investing in social programming and community-based policy (infrastructure, third places, care, education, etc.). You are correct that health doesn't start at the hospital but you are missing the gap that current systems in practice only penalize crimes to capital/property as being inherently violent, and not the intentional extractive policies and corruption that leads people to sacrificing their very health and wellbeing to meet ends meet and contribute to a crab in a barrel mentality. Food deserts and food insecurity are problems under hyper capitalism because that is intentional. Homelessness is a regular and increasing occurrence as intended by this market. Drug use and addiction are common forms of deviancy when SYSTEMS don't work for people. I shouldn't have to explain that problems with the US health care are rooted to the same issue. Hyper capitalism is dysfunctional and inhumane. When you want to discuss ideas and frameworks about shifting power and not coexisting with a system that inherently harms people then maybe we can talk. Edited June 14 by Chiidish 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vermillion Posted June 14 Share Posted June 14 21 minutes ago, TheHanyo said: Why do you both assume I'm not for universal access to affordable healthcare? Like what does that have to do with the economic strength of the US vs other developed countries? I don't think you understand the reason healthcare is out of control is the country is because everyone is living an extremely unhealthy lifestyle (car culture) of NO exercise and diets full with nothing but sugar. You want to get healthcare under control, start there. Throwing more money at it has done NOTHING-- and yes, the US spends more money on healthcare than any other nation on earth. And you think more money will fix it? You're dead wrong. Where did I say more money would fix it? It's where and how that money is directed. And we can have the conversation/debate on grocery store deserts and addictive additives instead of victim blaming on the diet angle as well as the auto lobbies since the highway system effectively lobbying against bike paths, greenery and public transit but I feel like I'd make little progress in that conversation either. I'll let Chiidish continue this convo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiidish Posted June 14 Share Posted June 14 11 minutes ago, Espresso said: I'd make little progress in that conversation either. I'll let Chiidish continue this convo. Just muted them tbh. I'm good on continuing to talk in circles when they're this adamant. It sounds like they are auditioning to become the next big grifter. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Communion Posted June 14 Share Posted June 14 1 hour ago, TheHanyo said: I don't think you understand the reason healthcare is out of control is the country is because everyone is living an extremely unhealthy lifestyle (car culture) of NO exercise and diets full with nothing but sugar. You want to get healthcare under control, start there. Throwing more money at it has done NOTHIN How should one find out how to get their health in order if they cannot afford to see a doctor? 1 hour ago, TheHanyo said: and yes, the US spends more money on healthcare than any other nation on earth So you agree that private insurance must be abolished and costs of service determined by the government, yes? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmittenCake Posted June 14 Share Posted June 14 On 6/13/2024 at 8:09 AM, Robert said: Thats great but who will actually benefit from this? China has lifted 100s of millions out of poverty, life expectancy has eclipsed US and infrastructure has rapidly improved (just look at the public transport) while the US has gone the complete opposite way. I'm not saying China is perfect or even better but economic growth means nothing if everyday citizens don't benefit. On 6/13/2024 at 8:13 AM, Cesar said: why should we care about US economic growth, when only the 1% will be able to benefit from it? EXACTLY who gives a **** about the economy? poor OP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheHanyo Posted June 14 Share Posted June 14 1 hour ago, Communion said: So you agree that private insurance must be abolished and costs of service determined by the government, yes? Kinda. I think private insurance should be an option for people who want it. But I think there should be a cheap government insurance option that stabilizes prices so insurance companies can't gouge anymore. I also think we're wasting our time debating it, because I think AI is going to dramatically disrupt the healthcare and insurance industries b/c AI is far better at diagnosing symptoms than human doctors are. Healthcare is about to get much, much cheaper because of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gottasadae Posted June 14 Share Posted June 14 Well, this aged like a fine wine >> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
If U Seek Amy Posted June 14 Share Posted June 14 Good! Keep it going. It has definitely helped benefit me in a variety of ways. Housing needs tamed FAST though. And then after that improvement on things like healthcare are obviously needed but I am glad to hear at least good trajectory is happening Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aotwbys Posted June 15 Share Posted June 15 USA runs payola articles to cover up their dying economy? Hahaha 2031. That's funny 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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