SeeingStars1515 Posted June 12 Posted June 12 Just now, ZeroSuitBritney said: The Jewish state of Israel came at the expense of Palestinian lives and their homes and livelihoods. So how can you be a leftist zionist but still want the necessity of Israel / Jewish state to exist if it's current existence violates their terms? Do you know how many states today came at the expense of others? We act as if Palestine only had history at 1948. I am not justifying Israel in its current state. I believe in Palestinian sovereignty 1
SeeingStars1515 Posted June 12 Posted June 12 Just now, ZeroSuitBritney said: The Jewish state of Israel came at the expense of Palestinian lives and their homes and livelihoods. So how can you be a leftist zionist but still want the necessity of Israel / Jewish state to exist if it's current existence violates their terms? Do you know how many states today came at the expense of others? We act as if Palestine only had history at 1948. I am not justifying Israel in its current state. I believe in Palestinian sovereignty
SeeingStars1515 Posted June 12 Posted June 12 (edited) lol i dont know how to delete multiples Edited June 12 by SeeingStars1515
SeeingStars1515 Posted June 12 Posted June 12 (edited) ugh sorry for the multiple posts Edited June 12 by SeeingStars1515
State of Grace. Posted June 12 Posted June 12 11 minutes ago, SeeingStars1515 said: I am not both sides-ing anything - I understand if it seems that way. Most of my responses are to bring a little empathy to the heated reactions we often see that further inflame people to only see one side (and i don't mean side as in right and wrong, I mean side as in the human element). PBS had a great documentary on the ways in which the language we have used to denigrate the other is sort of fueling islamophobia and anti semitism, so I am just mindful of that. 10 minutes ago, SeeingStars1515 said: There is nothing wrong w/ being a Zionist. There are leftist zionists who believe in the necessity of a Jewish state but not at the expense of Palestinian lives. And there is no such thing as "leftist Zionist", btw. 3
SeeingStars1515 Posted June 12 Posted June 12 2 minutes ago, State of Grace. said: And there is no such thing as "leftist Zionist", btw. Again - not true "The very posing of this question is profoundly dispiriting. It shows how bad (that is, not left-wing) the political situation of contemporary Israel is; how radically the Israeli-Palestinian conflict has deteriorated; and how historically ignorant and blindly anti-Israeli today's American left is. The short answer is: yes, of course. Zionism has been Leninist, social-democratic, liberal, secular, pacifist, anti-imperialist, proletarian, even, until this became impossible, binational. It has also been militaristic, authoritarian, bourgeois, racist, religious, messianic, imperialist, and neofascist. Edward Said got it exactly wrong when he described Zionism, and Israelis, as "ruthlessly single-minded." In fact, Zionism was one of the most ideologically disputatious movements in modern history; even today, this is still true. The Israeli Knesset can be described in many ways, but single-minded it is not. What is Zionism, which has become such a maligned term? It is support for the political self-determination of, and a sovereign state for, the Jewish people. What is left-wing Zionism? Domestically, being left-wing in Israel is pretty much the same as being left-wing anywhere else: it means supporting workers' rights, ethnic and gender equality, a fair distribution of wealth, the rule of law, and democratic political participation for all. But in Israel, the old adage that all politics are domestic is decidedly untrue. In foreign affairs, left-wing Zionism is the support for a viable, independent Palestinian state alongside an Israeli one. The difference between left-wing and right-wing Zionists is that leftists view Israel's occupation of the West Bank as the tragic, self-inflicted negation of Zionism, while rightists regard it as Zionism's jubilant culmination. The great irony is that left-wing anti-Zionists share the right's view, though without the jubilation." 3
dumbsparce Posted June 12 Posted June 12 This ad is so dystopian. If they're convinced that Palestinians deserve punishment over the actions of Hamas why make an ad about it? Who is this targeted to? Especially when they've already been slaughtering families for months now.
ZeroSuitBritney Posted June 12 Author Posted June 12 6 minutes ago, SeeingStars1515 said: Do you know how many states today came at the expense of others? We act as if Palestine only had history at 1948. I am not justifying Israel in its current state. I believe in Palestinian sovereignty So would leftist Zionists be okay with all Palestinians' right to return, regardless of where that would be? Even if it would be in Israel? Would they be willing to give up their homes and give it back to the original residents who's ancestors were terrorized out? The issue with what you are advocating for, while it sounds nice on paper, is literally impossible. When Israeli society in whole is intentionally taught and fed false information on it's history for 75 years and villainies an entire population of native people with historically fake claims and lies, that is not something that can just be unlearned with a simple two state solution. The entire existence of Israel is dependent on the suffering and brutalization of Palestinian people. 3
SeeingStars1515 Posted June 12 Posted June 12 3 minutes ago, ZeroSuitBritney said: So would leftist Zionists be okay with all Palestinians' right to return, regardless of where that would be? Even if it would be in Israel? Would they be willing to give up their homes and give it back to the original residents who's ancestors were terrorized out? The issue with what you are advocating for, while it sounds nice on paper, is literally impossible. When Israeli society in whole is intentionally taught and fed false information on it's history for 75 years and villainies an entire population of native people with historically fake claims and lies, that is not something that can just be unlearned with a simple two state solution. The entire existence of Israel is dependent on the suffering and brutalization of Palestinian people. As is the history of mostly all peoples in some capacity - and that includes the long storied history of present day Israel way before 1948. You'd hope we'd stop that - Israel is just the most recent state. I believe in reparations for African Americans; I'd presume some sort of equal measure for returning Palestinians if a one state was the solution
SeeingStars1515 Posted June 12 Posted June 12 Of course all of this is off topic from the initial post. Yes of course there are innocent Gazans and I am ashamed of Netanyahu and his regime's current assault on innocent people
Uncatena Posted June 12 Posted June 12 38 minutes ago, SeeingStars1515 said: In foreign affairs, left-wing Zionism is the support for a viable, independent Palestinian state alongside an Israeli one. this is just liberalism trying to disguise as leftism. if you are truly left, there is no place for Israel in your worldview. 5
State of Grace. Posted June 12 Posted June 12 (edited) 39 minutes ago, SeeingStars1515 said: Again - not true "The very posing of this question is profoundly dispiriting. It shows how bad (that is, not left-wing) the political situation of contemporary Israel is; how radically the Israeli-Palestinian conflict has deteriorated; and how historically ignorant and blindly anti-Israeli today's American left is. The short answer is: yes, of course. Zionism has been Leninist, social-democratic, liberal, secular, pacifist, anti-imperialist, proletarian, even, until this became impossible, binational. It has also been militaristic, authoritarian, bourgeois, racist, religious, messianic, imperialist, and neofascist. Edward Said got it exactly wrong when he described Zionism, and Israelis, as "ruthlessly single-minded." In fact, Zionism was one of the most ideologically disputatious movements in modern history; even today, this is still true. The Israeli Knesset can be described in many ways, but single-minded it is not. What is Zionism, which has become such a maligned term? It is support for the political self-determination of, and a sovereign state for, the Jewish people. What is left-wing Zionism? Domestically, being left-wing in Israel is pretty much the same as being left-wing anywhere else: it means supporting workers' rights, ethnic and gender equality, a fair distribution of wealth, the rule of law, and democratic political participation for all. But in Israel, the old adage that all politics are domestic is decidedly untrue. In foreign affairs, left-wing Zionism is the support for a viable, independent Palestinian state alongside an Israeli one. The difference between left-wing and right-wing Zionists is that leftists view Israel's occupation of the West Bank as the tragic, self-inflicted negation of Zionism, while rightists regard it as Zionism's jubilant culmination. The great irony is that left-wing anti-Zionists share the right's view, though without the jubilation." This is absolute nonsense. The creators and early leaders of Zionism (Herzl, Jabotinsky, Ben-Gurion, Nordau, Ussishkin, etc) were incredibly open about Zionism - the creation of a Jewish state - being a colonial endeavor that aims to replace a population that already exists with a different one. This is a fact. You cannot be a "leftist" and still support this racist, violent, supremacist settler-colonial project. This is just a pathetic attempt to justify Israel's existence when the physical manifestation of it literally cannot happen without the displacing of Palestinians. Israel's establishment in the first place was possible only through genocide and ethnic cleansing. And in order to keep its Zionist nature and protect its power, they keep denying the Nakba and Palestinians' right of return, and they keep enforcing apartheid rules and laws. You say that you "believe in Palestinian sovereignty" and still claim to be Zionist. Make it make sense. People like you (aka "Liberal Zionists" ) will tell me "well Palestinians denied the UN partition plan. They could have been living in peace right now as two states" which simply translates to "they refused to get colonized" and they had every single right to do it. It was never just about the settlements in the West Bank. Edited June 12 by State of Grace. 5 6
Communion Posted June 12 Posted June 12 (edited) 2 hours ago, SeeingStars1515 said: There was no mass rape but there was gender based violence (sexual assault) - so no biggie? I mean, yes, there is a meaningful difference given what Israel is claiming. The evidence that rape was not used as a weapon of war gives credence to the findings by international courts that Israel's response goes beyond any claims of self defense and are textbook examples of attempted genocide. If there was no meaningful difference between "rape used as a pre-planned tool of war" and "random civilians may have committed by their own volition sexual assaults and thus there could be women who experienced it," then the Israeli propaganda machine wouldn't be doing all it takes to push the claim that its the former over the latter. Israel does not care if a random woman or women experienced any random act of sexual assault in the hysteria of 10/7. They only care about rape on the basis of it as an alleged strategy to justify their own strategy of retaliation. Let alone the reality of sexual abuse prevalent in how the Israeli security state punishes the over 10k Palestinians currently detained within its jails and illegal detention centers. Edited June 12 by Communion 2
ICLDXU4HS Posted June 12 Posted June 12 1 hour ago, SeeingStars1515 said: left-wing Zionists view Israel's occupation of the West Bank as the tragic, self-inflicted negation of Zionism 4
Communion Posted June 12 Posted June 12 1 hour ago, SeeingStars1515 said: There is nothing wrong w/ being a Zionist. There are leftist zionists who believe in the necessity of a Jewish state but not at the expense of Palestinian lives. Zionism is inherently a form of nationalism. It is the belief of a Jewish ethno-state. Most leftists would agree that nationalism and socialism at odds. Tell me...who were the last group of people to most famously try to claim they were both nationalists and socialists? 3 1 1
Navyofbadgals Posted June 12 Posted June 12 lol @ leftist zionists a purely symbolic display for people thinking they can either package their bizarre nationalism better, or just aren't ready to admit they follow basically one of the most right wing viewpoints out there right now. It's about as left wing as Joe Biden is, which he's not but he packages it "nicer" than Republicans would lmao also.. an official government account tweeting this much propaganda and flat out lies should never be normalized like wtf 3
SeeingStars1515 Posted June 12 Posted June 12 2 hours ago, ChapelHooker said: this is just liberalism trying to disguise as leftism. if you are truly left, there is no place for Israel in your worldview. Israel is GOING to exist, just like every other entity of similar history unless call for its eradication, in which I hope you call for that same viewpoint for every other country that has gained land vis-a-vis conquest. So the question isn't about "is there a place for Israel" ...the question is what do we do about it now. 1
BorderBoy Posted June 12 Posted June 12 Disgusting, desperate and pathetic but then again, that's the norm for the poor excuse of genocidal state. The "no innocent civilians" applies actually to the Israelis who are armed and going out and about shooting Palestinians just like what happened today in Jerusalem. 1
Communion Posted June 12 Posted June 12 2 hours ago, SeeingStars1515 said: Israel is GOING to exist, just like every other entity of similar history Is this what Rhodesians were telling themselves too before the inevitable? 2
ZeroSuitBritney Posted June 12 Author Posted June 12 Israel has deleted the original tweet. But we all saw it. And they used the state's money to promote it as an ad. I hope the ICC and the ICJ are taking note.
welham Posted June 12 Posted June 12 Them deleting The way they keep getting lashed whenever they translate their thoughts from Hebrew Israelis, again, realizing that the genocidal rhetoric they nod their heads to in their local social circles is seen as *GASP* BAD! by anyone else with functioning braincells
Taylor fanboy Posted June 12 Posted June 12 Genocidal zionists. They will pay for their war crimes. 1
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