byzantium Posted May 30 Posted May 30 1 minute ago, GhostBox said: Every poll shows other Dems doing worse. That's even before the hit machine starts on them. So no Biden (although has his flaws) still is the best candidate to defeat Trump (and is better than Trump by miles in every single issue. 🤷 This is a flawed understanding of polls and the election. Any lesser known person will poll worse than a known person just due to the increase of "unsure/not decided". This is the whole purpose for the campaign process. You would be burying your head in the sand saying that Biden has the best chance considering he polls far behind pretty much every other statewide dem in the key swing states. 1 1
shimind Posted May 30 Posted May 30 I feel like Biden is waiting for their open palestine kids support as the last trump card.
TeemoR Posted May 30 Posted May 30 18 hours ago, Espresso said: I understand why cynicism can be so baked in as to turn to this, but I'm against chaos acceleration, as I was in 2016 (even though I've gone further left). I don't have the energy to proselytize for a different direction but I'm getting deja vu again to that infamous Susan Sarandon and Chris Hayes interview: She's so brilliant, calling out Hillary Clinton for a corrupted hag she is. So glad she lost in 2016. 4 2
Graves Posted May 30 Posted May 30 18 hours ago, Espresso said: I understand why cynicism can be so baked in as to turn to this, but I'm against chaos acceleration, as I was in 2016 (even though I've gone further left). I don't have the energy to proselytize for a different direction but I'm getting deja vu again to that infamous Susan Sarandon and Chris Hayes interview: I wouldn't say it's what I want to happen, just that I feel it's kind of inevitable? I dunno. I don't see any major changes to democrat strategy as long as they're winning elections, no matter how close the margins. I think a loss, or even a couple losses is the only thing that'll ever shake dems enough to make an about face possible. Of course, that would come with incredibly sacrifices for the at-risk communities that most of us belong to so it's not something I'm thrilled thinking about.
Thesedays Posted May 30 Posted May 30 (edited) 2 hours ago, GhostBox said: Shes a hypocritical hag. That's about it We're not talking about Dem politicians preaching their moral superiority while supporting a genocide. We're talking about someone who has a history of being on the right side of history since the 70s, who fought for women's rights in Central America, who puts her money where her mouth is. Nothing hypocritical about her. As for Dem Party stans pretending as if they're good people while making excuses for genocide... Edited May 30 by Thesedays 2
GhostBox Posted May 30 Posted May 30 31 minutes ago, Thesedays said: We're not talking about Dem politicians preaching their moral superiority while supporting a genocide. We're talking about someone who has a history of being on the right side of history since the 70s, who fought for women's rights in Central America, who puts her money where her mouth is. Nothing hypocritical about her. As for Dem Party stans pretending as if they're good people while making excuses for genocide... With her help we got bush in 2000, trump in 2016. She can croak 2 5
a_d_22 Posted May 30 Posted May 30 On 5/28/2024 at 7:26 AM, Bloodflowers. said: Democrats are gonna have Gavin Newson replace Biden on their ticket, I have a feeling The way this would almost be worse than Biden
Thesedays Posted May 31 Posted May 31 On 5/30/2024 at 4:56 PM, GhostBox said: With her help we got bush in 2000, trump in 2016. She can croak People that can croak: Susan Sarandon however those that supported the Iraq war and are currently cheering and funding a genocide? Those we should vote for. Concerning. A country that produces people like that absolutely deserves Trump as a president. 4 1
yonsé Posted June 3 Posted June 3 On 5/28/2024 at 10:37 AM, i spit on haters said: And even if Palestine was the only issue for some voters so what ? is mass murder of a group of people not bad enough ? that should be enough for anyone with basic empathy. And yes we're going to continue to be loud and in-your-face about Palestine because we're not going to allow Zionists and the media to sweep this under the rug and become yet another silent genocide. The world is watching and seeing the horrific events unfold in real time. Enough is enough. do you think donald trump being elected is going to stop the genocide? because he would literally flatten palestine himself if he could. he was vocally pro israel through his entire presidency. meanwhile he has plans to turn our government into a tyranny and that doesn't concern y'all at ALL? 4
GraceRandolph Posted June 3 Author Posted June 3 18 minutes ago, yonsé said: because he would literally flatten palestine himself if he could. Biden's bombs already did that for him. 4 3
yonsé Posted June 3 Posted June 3 (edited) 10 minutes ago, GraceRandolph said: Biden's bombs already did that for him. cool. so when israel eventually starts to expand into Iran (since theyve already killed their president) and trump gives them the ammunition to do so while ruling our country like a dictator then what? when he starts having the national guard shoot free palestine protestors in the streets just because he can, then what? need y'all to think bigger than just this one conflict. israel isn't going to stop after palestine. Edited June 3 by yonsé 2 1
ATRL Moderator Bloo Posted June 3 ATRL Moderator Posted June 3 3 hours ago, yonsé said: need y'all to think bigger than just this one conflict. israel isn't going to stop after palestine. It’s mighty bold of you to assume people’s issues with Biden started with this one genocide. 1
yonsé Posted June 3 Posted June 3 10 minutes ago, Bloo said: It's mighty bold of you to assume people's issues with Biden started with this one genocide. nowhere did i say that. but that user specifically used the genocide as their resoning for not voting at all. biden or no biden there is going to be a genocide. 3
ATRL Moderator Bloo Posted June 3 ATRL Moderator Posted June 3 8 minutes ago, yonsé said: nowhere did i say that. but that user specifically used the genocide as their resoning for not voting at all. biden or no biden there is going to be a genocide. That's not a super motivating argument though. The main thing a lot of people need to realize about voting is that people employ different schools of thought regarding how they vote. Some people view voting as a purely utilitarian game (i.e., vote for the lesser of however many evils, harm reduction). I'm assuming you ascribe to this school of thought. A lot of other people don't ascribe to that mindset. They attribute very personal attachment to their vote. Voting for Biden means they are voting for and endorsing his role in a genocide. For many, that's an abominable and they cannot get over that hill. You can scream till you're blue in the face, people view voting very differently and it's a very personal philosophy to each individual. Arguing with people to reshape their relationship with the act of voting is a useless activity. It's more meaningful to challenge politicians to adjust their platforms, rhetoric, etc. to garner more support. This is especially more relevant in an election where both candidates have served as president in very recent history. For many, they noticed no noticeable difference in day to day life between Biden and Trump. And then there are another group of people who felt their lives have gotten more difficult under Biden. The only thing that can be done to win over these people is for Biden to campaign better and do more to win over voters that aren't sold by "Trump bad" or "Trump is also a genocide supporter like Biden!" These aren't good arguments and they're very boring to engage with.
yonsé Posted June 3 Posted June 3 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Bloo said: That's not a super motivating argument though. The main thing a lot of people need to realize about voting is that people employ different schools of thought regarding how they vote. Some people view voting as a purely utilitarian game (i.e., vote for the lesser of however many evils, harm reduction). I'm assuming you ascribe to this school of thought. A lot of other people don't ascribe to that mindset. They attribute very personal attachment to their vote. Voting for Biden means they are voting for and endorsing his role in a genocide. For many, that's an abominable and they cannot get over that hill. You can scream till you're blue in the face, people view voting very differently and it's a very personal philosophy to each individual. Arguing with people to reshape their relationship with the act of voting is a useless activity. It's more meaningful to challenge politicians to adjust their platforms, rhetoric, etc. to garner more support. This is especially more relevant in an election where both candidates have served as president in very recent history. For many, they noticed no noticeable difference in day to day life between Biden and Trump. And then there are another group of people who felt their lives have gotten more difficult under Biden. The only thing that can be done to win over these people is for Biden to campaign better and do more to win over voters that aren't sold by "Trump bad" or "Trump is also a genocide supporter like Biden!" These aren't good arguments and they're very boring to engage with. cool. that's great. people can vote however they want. but when we no longer have a democracy because y'all decided to go with your personal philosophy instead of, gee, i don't know, the logical train of thought based on the many decades of horrific republican presidents who let minorities and queer people die in our very own country, y'all are gonna be real upset and wonder why it happened when it could easily be prevented. ronald reagan used the very same heritage foundation to run his presidency that is the same one that is pushing project 2025. you know. the reagan that introduced crack into black neighborhoods, let millions of gay men die of aids, the one that altered the way society works to this day? that reagan. trump will not only add to the current violence going on overseas, he will inflict it on our home-turf as well. y'all aren't gonna be ABLE to protest or yell about Palestine once he takes over. there won't be any Palestine to free or any genocide to speak out on. he will surely do what he can to sweep it under the rug and its already been noted that free speech is getting amended under project 2025. so, you don't have to engage with my argument. i don't care. just use your brains. the term "history repeats itself" could not be any truer because y'all refuse to listen to the lessons from the past. my god. when were in a fundamentalist christian white ethno-state y'all gon be feeling real different about them votes when you're no longer allowed to cast them. project 2025 is a real threat to the future democracy of this country and y'all do NOT care. Edited June 3 by yonsé 3 1 2
GraceRandolph Posted June 4 Author Posted June 4 3 hours ago, yonsé said: cool. that's great. people can vote however they want. but when we no longer have a democracy because y'all decided to go with your personal philosophy instead of, gee, i don't know, the logical train of thought based on the many decades of horrific republican presidents who let minorities and queer people die in our very own country, y'all are gonna be real upset and wonder why it happened when it could easily be prevented. ronald reagan used the very same heritage foundation to run his presidency that is the same one that is pushing project 2025. you know. the reagan that introduced crack into black neighborhoods, let millions of gay men die of aids, the one that altered the way society works to this day? that reagan. trump will not only add to the current violence going on overseas, he will inflict it on our home-turf as well. y'all aren't gonna be ABLE to protest or yell about Palestine once he takes over. there won't be any Palestine to free or any genocide to speak out on. he will surely do what he can to sweep it under the rug and its already been noted that free speech is getting amended under project 2025. so, you don't have to engage with my argument. i don't care. just use your brains. the term "history repeats itself" could not be any truer because y'all refuse to listen to the lessons from the past. my god. when were in a fundamentalist christian white ethno-state y'all gon be feeling real different about them votes when you're no longer allowed to cast them. project 2025 is a real threat to the future democracy of this country and y'all do NOT care. Question: Do Hillary Clinton and Joe Biden, or the Democratic National Committee and party operatives who pushed them and insisted on them as candidates bear any responsibility for Trump? Or is just voters who are to blame? 1
ATRL Moderator Bloo Posted June 4 ATRL Moderator Posted June 4 3 hours ago, yonsé said: project 2025 is a real threat to the future democracy of this country and y'all do NOT care. No, the Democratic Party doesn’t care. Joe Biden has been unpopular well before now. Voters have wanted somebody new for a long time now. The writing has been on the wall and the Democratic Party and Joe Biden chose to ignore that and shut down Democratic processes to allow voters to make a choice and then say they’re saving Democracy. The Democratic Party saw Project 2025 and thought, “Well, if Biden loses, we have this to fundraise off of.” 5 2
ZeroSuitBritney Posted June 4 Posted June 4 (edited) At the end of the day, Biden and the DNC are not doing anything to appeal to their base, like stopping funding to Israel, thus drawing them away to vote for a third party candidate or not vote at all. Biden and his team know about Project 2025, see the risks, and are okay with it. That's it. It's not much more complicated than that. Cry all you want, it won't change the fact. If he loses, you hardcore Democrats / anti-Trumpers will once again put the blame on every other person or group but the one who's fault it really is: Biden, his administration and his party. Edited June 4 by ZeroSuitBritney 5 3
yonsé Posted June 4 Posted June 4 (edited) 2 hours ago, ZeroSuitBritney said: If he loses, you hardcore Democrats / anti-Trumpers will once again put the blame on every other person or group but the one who's fault it really is: Biden, his administration and his party. its giving MAGA supporter....guess i shouldn't be surprised. Edited June 4 by yonsé 1 1 5
yonsé Posted June 4 Posted June 4 (edited) 15 hours ago, GraceRandolph said: Question: Do Hillary Clinton and Joe Biden, or the Democratic National Committee and party operatives who pushed them and insisted on them as candidates bear any responsibility for Trump? Or is just voters who are to blame? 15 hours ago, Bloo said: No, the Democratic Party doesn't care. Joe Biden has been unpopular well before now. Voters have wanted somebody new for a long time now. The writing has been on the wall and the Democratic Party and Joe Biden chose to ignore that and shut down Democratic processes to allow voters to make a choice and then say they're saving Democracy. The Democratic Party saw Project 2025 and thought, "Well, if Biden loses, we have this to fundraise off of." so interesting how none of you can answer my question. its always a straw man. you still cannot explain to me WHY voting yourselves into a fascist government is acceptable, regardless of the DNC and its policies. no one is saying hillary didn't royally f*ck up or that biden is amazing. but they are not fascists. it shouldn't be that difficult of a decision and yet...y'all keep shifting accountability. it just goes to show that y'all would rather watch the government collapse just so you can feel self-righteous. meanwhile a bunch of people's wellbeing is about to be in danger and y'all don't care. we're about to lose gay marriage and y'all don't care. we're about to lose the right to vote and y'all don't care. just to make your little point. and you can say "no the dems dont care" but y'all clearly don't either. Edited June 4 by yonsé 2 1 2
ATRL Moderator Bloo Posted June 4 ATRL Moderator Posted June 4 41 minutes ago, yonsé said: so interesting how none of you can answer my question. its always a straw man. you still cannot explain to me WHY voting yourselves into a fascist government is acceptable, regardless of the DNC and its policies. no one is saying hillary didn't royally f*ck up or that biden is amazing. but they are not fascists. it shouldn't be that difficult of a decision and yet...y'all keep shifting accountability. it just goes to show that y'all would rather watch the government collapse just so you can feel self-righteous. meanwhile a bunch of people's wellbeing is about to be in danger and y'all don't care. we're about to lose gay marriage and y'all don't care. we're about to lose the right to vote and y'all don't care. just to make your little point. and you can say "no the dems dont care" but y'all clearly don't either. Why is this whole argument focused on how I’m voting when I’ve never stated how I’m voting? What relevance does this have to the discussion that the Democrats should be doing a better job to win to prevent us from entering a fascist era? Arguing with people about what you assume their vote is going to be is a definitive strawman argument. My vote does not matter one way or another because I do not live in a swing state. So, please, stop worrying about my vote. It’s a worthless debate. 1
Communion Posted June 4 Posted June 4 (edited) 46 minutes ago, yonsé said: its always a straw man. you still cannot explain to me WHY voting yourselves into a fascist government is acceptable, Do you think there are like...laws that mandate people to vote? The language you use to describe persuading people to vote is alien, incoherent, and confusing. "Why is it acceptable??" It is neither acceptable nor unacceptable. That's not a metric people contend with when voting. "Is what I'm doing acceptable?". No one asks themselves this when voting. You should like a child contending to the realities of how voting works. You seem to think voting is a moral exercise and not a transactional one. Edited June 4 by Communion
yonsé Posted June 4 Posted June 4 (edited) 2 hours ago, Bloo said: Why is this whole argument focused on how I'm voting when I've never stated how I'm voting? What relevance does this have to the discussion that the Democrats should be doing a better job to win to prevent us from entering a fascist era? Arguing with people about what you assume their vote is going to be is a definitive strawman argument. My vote does not matter one way or another because I do not live in a swing state. So, please, stop worrying about my vote. It's a worthless debate. because *you* replied to a post that I made telling someone they shouldn't vote based on the genocide. You came to ME and told me it's a moral choice or "personal philosphy" people make, despite me stating the very obvious *moral* implications of Donald trump taking a second term. democrats need to do their part, but how do you think they get elected in the first place? None of yall vote for the progressives when they're on the ballot. So then people like Joe Biden get the ticket and we get moderates. A moderate isn't going to get into office and turn progressive. You have to actually vote the progressives in. And according to you, that doesn't matter because you're not in a swing state? And you can say your vote doesn't matter, but we literally had red states turn blue for the first time in decades in 2020…so that's bs. states like Georgia that were definitely NOT swing states and freaked trump out so much he tried to bribe them (and got indicted for doing so). So, no. I don't subscribe to that. There is a part you can do as a voter to prevent the world from falling into further disarray. But it doesn't affect you day to day so you simply don't care. I'm not going to stop saying it either because it couldn't be more clear. 2 hours ago, Communion said: Do you think there are like...laws that mandate people to vote? The language you use to describe persuading people to vote is alien, incoherent, and confusing. "Why is it acceptable??" It is neither acceptable nor unacceptable. That's not a metric people contend with when voting. "Is what I'm doing acceptable?". No one asks themselves this when voting. You should like a child contending to the realities of how voting works. You seem to think voting is a moral exercise and not a transactional one. Voting IS a moral exercise…that's how things like Prop 8 get passed. The issue is that none of YOU see it that way, but the right always does. They have and will always vote based on their beliefs, and that is why they always win. Kinda telling you don't get that. Edited June 4 by yonsé 2
yonsé Posted June 4 Posted June 4 2 hours ago, ZeroSuitBritney said: "It's giving MAGA supporter" HELP Yes referring to people who state the obvious about trump as "anti-trumpers" is definitely giving maga. But go off sis 1
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