swissman Posted May 15 Posted May 15 5 minutes ago, SweetOreosOfHeaven said: As someone has said in this thread - the burden of proof is on the side of the people who are making very bold claims like the ones you are making: that the position of the planets when they are born directly influences people's personality. Human personality is a complex topic but psychiatry and psychology, even sociology are much more reliable in their attempts to study it and explain it. In every of those fields there are causal explanations at work which astrology just completely lacks. This is why I think it's dangerous to promote astrology as a substitute for therapy. I'm not arguing that astrology should replace therapy though and in fact the first thing I said in this thread was exactly that. I just find it arrogant, rude and humourless for people to always immediately put down astrology just because "the burden of proof" is on those who use it...well, there are plenty of things to do with personality and experience that we cannot prove with science. That doesn't mean they don't exist. 1
professor2000 Posted May 15 Posted May 15 I'll just say this… Here's the issue with science and peer-reviewed research…its only is dependent on things we know. It's limited. Humans don't know everything …theres still a lot of **** that can't be explained/proven by science yet, but can be felt intuitively. So, while astrology is not science-based, doesn't meant that there's not some validity to it. It just means we don't have definitive, agreed-upon proof by man. There are in fact some things we just can't comprehend intellectually yet. A prime example of this is many theories in quantum physics. Shamans/spiritualists talked about similar concepts many years ago, but we're finally using science to understand it. 3 1
swissman Posted May 15 Posted May 15 (edited) 10 minutes ago, SweetOreosOfHeaven said: No explanation in sight; we're going in circles at this point. Why does being born in December would make you more likely to de adventurous, for instance? Based on what I've said, my theory would be that whatever was going on in the sky while someone was born in December exerted some sort of pressure on the brain as it came out of the womb (just like the moon exerts a pressure on the oceans which cause them to move), so that they react a certain way in relation to adventure. Again, I'm not saying I know this is a fact. I'm speculating and I admit that. I'm just saying that all the people who are sooooooo immediately sure that because we don't know, everyone else is stupid to humour it...well that's annoying, arrogant, and rude. Just let people be. Seriously if it's not for you, why does it matter? Are you not getting jobs or friends because someone heard you don't like astrology? It's not that serious if people want to get into it, and in doing so, find it helps them. Can science explain why someone IS adventurous at all? Does that mean they ARE NOT? And that a sense of adventure doesn't exist?! Edited May 15 by swissman 1
Hephaestus Posted May 15 Posted May 15 7 minutes ago, swissman said: I believe at this point science has proven a lot about the brain, has it not? And would science not say that altering even the smallest thing in a human brain can have big change in the person? And does science not at this point know that our brains are responsible for how we think and act? And so if that is true, why is it impossible for certain gravitational changes that can move mass amounts of water from the oceans to not also potentially affect a brain (which is predominantly water), and thus affecting it slightly, also effect things like psychology? Furthermore, we know that air pressure can have affects on humans either when they go to different altitudes or when pressure changes in the atmosphere, so logically if that can also affect us not so subtly, why can't something like the moon's changing gravity also affect us? It's surely not a fact, but it's also not a wild guess. It's speculative based on some stuff we know. It's more likely for a physical force altering the brain to have a physical effect, meaning a headache or something like that, rather than emotional or psychological one. Even taking the example of altitudes, it's not like people act differently on an emotional level when pressure changes. Sure, they may get physically uncomfortable because of that but it's still them, with the same thoughts and emotions. I'm simplifying a lot here, but I hope you get where I'm going with this. 1
Peak Now Posted May 15 Posted May 15 I mean if we had the obligation to accept stuff that merely "might" be right and treat them equally as scientifically proven (or at the very least scientifically tested) facts we'd have to accept a lot of alternate medicine and other fringe theories Essential oils "might" be useful in curing diseases! Why doesn't the CDC recommend it? 2 2
aesthetic bih Posted May 15 Posted May 15 Damn, I didn't know ATRL has strong feelings towards astrology... the straightness jumped out! Astrology is for the spiritual people. I think it's quite interesting and entertaining. Personally, I don't let the stars or moon tides or whatever dictate my life, but the confirmation/clarity that astrology gives in some aspect of my life feels awesome and lifts up my mood at least. 1 1
kataraqueen Posted May 15 Posted May 15 6 minutes ago, Goaty said: I personally don't think this is strong enough evidence to draw a meaningful relationship between celestial positions, birth time, and human behavior, but it was an interesting read — appreciate your sharing it. Quote There might be studies suggesting some correlations between birth season and certain health conditions, but these are rather explained due to environmental and biological factors, not astrological ones. My point was rather that the two are not totally incompatible, as this is a really tough claim to make. It would mean they contradict each other on every level. I disproved that by giving a counterexample. I never said there is a correlation, but simply that the existence of one doesn't have to necessarily contradict the other. 46 minutes ago, Space Cowboy said: Astrology being a pseudoscience and it being considered incompatible with real science is strongly supported by the the scientific community and the scientific method. Like… if you really wanna believe that the stars and the planets condition your personality, you do you, but don't go spreading lies. Research has been conducted to test whether astrology is backed by science. The research on this showed no evidence to support this. This does not indicate what you claimed, which is "total incompatibility". Sorry I don't mean to be an ass but semantics are important in these conversations, especially since you're accusing me of spreading lies, which is not true. In fact, throughout this thread I haven't made a single claim and especially not one as big as a total incompatibility between two methodologies. All I've done is entertain possiblities. Maybe you read that there is no scientific validity? Which I'll happily agree with, but that's something entirely different Quote Astrology has also nothing to do with data analytics as well, which involves statistical methods and empirical data, while astrology uses unscientific premises and lacks evidence-based validation. That's data analysis. Data analytics is "the collection, transformation, and organization of data in order to draw conclusions, make predictions, and drive informed decision making". You can call it weak data analytics idc. My point was that astrology seems to just be based on perceived data and conclusions drawn from that, contrary to some sort of higher mythical power employed by celestial bodies as many people try to argue, which is why many people seem to find it so proposperous and removed from reality.
CottageHore Posted May 15 Posted May 15 (edited) I love Dua but this is giving out of touch elitist I love astrology but thinking an astrologist is an appropriate replacement for a psychotherapist is wild. Edited May 15 by CottageHore 1 1
Stunnah Posted May 15 Posted May 15 I'm back, guys. I saw the moon do a little wobble while I was cooking dinner and I burnt burnt the leafy greens and Radical Optimism stopped auto-playing on my Alexa. 5
swissman Posted May 15 Posted May 15 5 minutes ago, Hephaestus said: It's more likely for a physical force altering the brain to have a physical effect, meaning a headache or something like that, rather than emotional or psychological one. Even taking the example of altitudes, it's not like people act differently on an emotional level when pressure changes. Sure, they may get physically uncomfortable because of that but it's still them, with the same thoughts and emotions. I'm simplifying a lot here, but I hope you get where I'm going with this. I don't think it really matters if the effect is purely physical or purely emotional, it's still an effect nonetheless, and in talking to people who say IT COULD NOT POSSIBLY BE TRUE, I'm only saying, isn't there the slightest possibility? I'm not looking to convert anyone, I'm actually moreso just saying leave us alone, we see the possibility, we enjoy it, we accept it may be wrong, but we have found most often it's correct for us, so we use it. This whole "astrology is STUPID" thing is needlessly rude. 1 1
Peak Now Posted May 15 Posted May 15 4 minutes ago, kataraqueen said: My point was that astrology seems to just be based on perceived data and conclusions drawn from that, See I actually somewhat agree with this, but that would make it correlation and not causation which some of y'all are claiming there "might" be. And correlation isn't that hard to "find" if the sample size is large enough and/or the "sample" is based on anecdotal evidence. It's the same deal with feng shui tbh. 3 1
swissman Posted May 15 Posted May 15 If you read your natal chart and it says you are a certain number of things, which you don't think you are, then good, don't follow astrology. If you do relate to what it says, and you look deeper at others' you know and see that it describes them too and not you, then maybe follow astrology, maybe you'll like it. I wonder how many of the "scientists" here who put down astrology have actually explored the topic more than reading their horoscope, more than just knowing their sun sign, or even their moon and rising. I've found the more I know about it, the more interesting and valuable the information becomes. It's really not so serious if someone decides to "learn more about themselves" through their natal chart.
Goaty Posted May 15 Posted May 15 6 minutes ago, kataraqueen said: My point was rather that the two are not totally incompatible, as this is a really tough claim to make. It would mean they contradict each other on every level. I disproved that by giving a counterexample. I never said there is a correlation, but simply that the existence of one doesn't have to necessarily contradict the other. Just to be clear — my comments about the study weren't meant to be a refutation of anything you were saying in this thread. For the most part I think you and I are in agreement here. 1
OrgVisual Posted May 15 Posted May 15 For all Kpoppie fans: this is the Western equivalent of Min Heejin seeking help from her shaman friend 1
Hephaestus Posted May 15 Posted May 15 4 minutes ago, swissman said: I don't think it really matters if the effect is purely physical or purely emotional, it's still an effect nonetheless, and in talking to people who say IT COULD NOT POSSIBLY BE TRUE, I'm only saying, isn't there the slightest possibility? I'm not looking to convert anyone, I'm actually moreso just saying leave us alone, we see the possibility, we enjoy it, we accept it may be wrong, but we have found most often it's correct for us, so we use it. This whole "astrology is STUPID" thing is needlessly rude. But it does matter in the context of this topic though. Physical effects are not the same as emotional ones and while I believe it's ok to dabble in astrology lightheartedly or for entertainment purposes, I don't think it's a good substitute for therapy (which is basically what Dua's doing) and might be even dangerous for people who actually need therapy. That's all. 2 2
swissman Posted May 15 Posted May 15 (edited) 1 minute ago, Hephaestus said: But it does matter in the context of this topic though. Physical effects are not the same as emotional ones and while I believe it's ok to dabble in astrology lightheartedly or for entertainment purposes, I don't think it's a good substitute for therapy (which is basically what Dua's doing) and might be even dangerous for people who actually need therapy. That's all. But physical and emotional (when it comes to the brain) can be very closely linked. A hormone is a physical thing. But that can make a very emotional change. Edited May 15 by swissman
Peak Now Posted May 15 Posted May 15 Anyway I think this is a very good summary of this argument as it stands right now: 1
swissman Posted May 15 Posted May 15 question: does "personality" as a concept even exist, and has science proven that they do?
Goaty Posted May 15 Posted May 15 7 minutes ago, swissman said: I'm not looking to convert anyone, I'm actually moreso just saying leave us alone, we see the possibility, we enjoy it, we accept it may be wrong, but we have found most often it's correct for us, so we use it. This whole "astrology is STUPID" thing is needlessly rude. I mean no offense when I say this, but just because you believe in something doesn't preclude someone else from criticizing it. I do think sincere belief in astrology is stupid. But I'm just some guy on the internet, so who cares lol 2
swissman Posted May 15 Posted May 15 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Goaty said: I mean no offense when I say this, but just because you believe in something doesn't preclude someone else from criticizing it. I do think sincere belief in astrology is stupid. But I'm just some guy on the internet, so who cares lol I never said people cannot criticize it. I said doing so in the way that is often is done...is rude. You can be rude. I can call it out. Edited May 15 by swissman 3
dirrtydiana Posted May 15 Posted May 15 What's crazy to me is she identifies as a leo even though she was born on the cusp and always gave me more virgo vibes
swissman Posted May 15 Posted May 15 Just now, dirrtydiana said: What's crazy to me is she identifies as a leo even though she was born on the cusp and always gave me more virgo vibes She definitely has vibes of both! I can definitely see her more as a Virgo too as far as her output, but she also has a strong Leo sense of doing whatever she wants. 4
HarajukuPrincess Posted May 15 Posted May 15 Y'all hate Dua so much OMG Astrology is NOT weird And I think it's cool that she's into it 1
swissman Posted May 15 Posted May 15 Astrology would say that I can't let an argument go and love to engage in debate. Was astrology correct?
Blank Space Posted May 15 Posted May 15 57 minutes ago, swissman said: By "someone just decides" do you mean, thousands and thousands of years of people working in astrology across multiple cultures and societies? I love how some people just dismiss this. Like it's okay if someone doesn't believe in it but pretenting there's not something about it when it has been literally studied for centuries is just arrogant and silly 1 2
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