celeb news Cardi B claims homosexuality can be caused by assault, "not everybody is born gay"

[FOCK]

20 minutes ago, Weld_E said:

I don't know if some of the questionable takes in this thread stem internalized homophobia or are just a desperate attempt to defend Cardis abhorrent take (because if Nicki made these comments…)

 

Not only is her take dangerous, but what qualifies her to make such a statement? Where are the scientific findings to back up these claims? Is the evidence a tv series she just watched??? She should either educate herself on the matter or stfu.

I've found people try to make quite a number of concessions for her ignorance in particular & give her the benefit of the doubt, overlooking her history of questionable remarks & slurs, because of what I assume is her inability to articulate. 

[PoisonPill]

I definitely don't know or understand if there's any psychological link between abuse and gay identity. But just speaking from personal experience, I would say more than half of the gay men I know experienced sexual abuse at a young age. 

[Sawk]

17 minutes ago, BrokenMachine said:

Not you 'suggesting' to 'have empathy' and using two slurs in the same post. Worms I guess 

Leave it to the braindead user to hyperfocus on that instead of the messaging, so predictable 

[Weld_E]

1 hour ago, Sawk said:

It's not nonsense, do you know every single gay person's life story? I literally said in my post genetic factors are something I believe contribute. If I were you, m@ric0n,  I wouldn't go around telling victims of sexual assault that they spread nonsense, you ate that SLAYYYYY 

 

EVERYONE'S situation is different, some people DO experience same sex attraction after having gone through traumatic events, in the same way MANY people are also born gay without having gone through that.

 

I wish you ATRL f@qq0ts had some semblance of nuance, NO ONE is saying that going through SA automatically makes you gay, IJBOL, but in certain cases there are environmental factors that make people have homosexual tendencies, this isn't black and white.

 

I really don't give a f*ck about your politics on this, this topic is much more complicated than you and I could ever truly understand, I suggest you have some empathy for people who have gone through SA, b*tch.

Cite your references.

[Sawk]

2 minutes ago, Weld_E said:

Cite your references.

No one and I mean no one in the world knows 100% why people turn out gay, there are people like me who think it's a mix of genetic predisposition as well as environmental factors. I'm not sure why you would want me to cite sources on this since I'm not stating anything as a fact except the part where I say there ain't conclusive evidence that demonstrates why someone is homosexual. Yes, animals in the wild are gay and so are humans, why is it so hard for people to understand that maybe, just maybe, for a certain group of people within the queer community, their attraction or gender identity stems from experiencing some trauma? No one is saying that this is the case for everyone, Cardi even says this, yet you get trashed for even talking about sexual assault which might have some influence. Being open about these conversation surrounding SA can help us understand the root of human sexuality, I believe most guys are born gay, that doesn't mean all of them are. 

[Weld_E]

9 minutes ago, Sawk said:

No one and I mean no one in the world knows 100% why people turn out gay, there are people like me who think it's a mix of genetic predisposition as well as environmental factors. I'm not sure why you would want me to cite sources on this since I'm not stating anything as a fact except the part where I say there ain't conclusive evidence that demonstrates why someone is homosexual. Yes, animals in the wild are gay and so are humans, why is it so hard for people to understand that maybe, just maybe, for a certain group of people within the queer community, their attraction or gender identity stems from experiencing some trauma? No one is saying that this is the case for everyone, Cardi even says this, yet you get trashed for even talking about sexual assault which might have some influence. Being open about these conversation surrounding SA can help us understand the root of human sexuality, I believe most guys are born gay, that doesn't mean all of them are. 

So you have none and just like Cardi, you're talking out of your ass. Got it.

You are free to "believe" what you want in the same way some people believe vaccines cause autism or covid was caused by 5g networks, but people are also free to criticize your take and point out how flawed and dangerous it is.

[thequeenofpopmadonna]

A few people act like being gay is a disease???? Again we are going back to the 90s???? Backwards??

I think they need to go to hospitals first before making assumptions about the gay origin.

Edited April 25 by thequeenofpopmadonna

[FOCK]

8 minutes ago, Sawk said:

No one and I mean no one in the world knows 100% why people turn out gay, there are people like me who think it's a mix of genetic predisposition as well as environmental factors. I'm not sure why you would want me to cite sources on this since I'm not stating anything as a fact except the part where I say there ain't conclusive evidence that demonstrates why someone is homosexual. Yes, animals in the wild are gay and so are humans, why is it so hard for people to understand that maybe, just maybe, for a certain group of people within the queer community, their attraction or gender identity stems from experiencing some trauma? No one is saying that this is the case for everyone, Cardi even says this, yet you get trashed for even talking about sexual assault which might have some influence. Being open about these conversation surrounding SA can help us understand the root of human sexuality, I believe most guys are born gay, that doesn't mean all of them are. 

If a man were assaulted by a woman & went on to identify as heterosexual, would their sexuality be pathologised in this manner? No. What may, is the manner in which he expresses his heterosexuality. 
 

Research & discussion on this matter should be around terms of how *any* given sexuality expresses itself, in relation to one's life experience - and *not* centre around the sexual orientation itself.

 

To do otherwise has historically lead to extermination, "othering", the belief of a genetic defect, conversion camps, bigotry, judgement & presumption. 
 

Opining about this as a public figure & using conclusive statements like "see, this goes to show…" etc is incredibly irresponsible & callous. Nobody is looking to Cardi B or any pop star to act as the authoritative voice or lead on this discussion. 

[Sawk]

1 minute ago, Weld_E said:

So you have none and just like Cardi, you're talking out of your ass. Got it.

You are free to "believe" what you want in the same way some people believe vaccines cause autism or covid was caused by 5g networks, but people are also free to criticize your take and point out how flawed and dangerous it is.

I don't need to cite sources because there isn't evidence that can tell you with complete 100% certainty why you are gay. No study will tell you there is a conclusive gay gene, in the same way no study will tell you being assaulted sexually made you gay, because… NO ONE knows why people turn out gay. 
 

it's extremely disappointing to want to have a back and forth of understanding and then to get dismissed because this narrative goes against what some gays want to push. I get that being "born this way" is what might lead for us to be accepted on a broader scale, but you're leaving out a group of people behind who don't  share that same experience.

 

i consider a gay who thinks he's gay because of assault just as valid as someone who thinks they are born gay, both are deserving of love and acceptance within the community and shutting people out because they're not the cookie cutter representation of the perfect gay is so f*cked up.
 

So much of our community has gone through trauma, why do we want to silence people who might have some insight as to why they have developed same sex attraction? Talking about experiences and also about the genetic factors help us get closer to understanding the root, not that I need to know why, I'll treat the assaulted gay and the born gay the same. 
 

And of course, I'm open to being criticized and I'm glad that you responded so we can talk, but I'm not gonna be silenced because my point of view isn't the most popular one either. 

[FOCK]

3 minutes ago, Sawk said:

 

And of course, I'm open to being criticized and I'm glad that you responded so we can talk, but I'm not gonna be silenced because my point of view isn't the most popular one either. 

The line of thinking you've outlined is the same one shared by men who think they can turn Lesbian women straight through assault & they'll "learn to like it". 

[Sawk]

2 minutes ago, FOCK said:

If a man were assaulted by a woman & went on to identify as heterosexual, would their sexuality be pathologised in this manner? No. What may, is the manner in which he expresses his heterosexuality. 
 

Research & discussion on this matter should be around terms of how *any* given sexuality expresses itself, in relation to one's life experience - and *not* centre around the sexual orientation itself.

 

To do otherwise has historically lead to extermination, "othering", the belief of a genetic defect, conversion camps, bigotry, judgement & presumption. 
 

Opining about this as a public figure & using conclusive statements like "see, this goes to show…" etc is incredibly irresponsible & callous. Nobody is looking to Cardi B or any pop star to act as the authoritative voice or lead on this discussion. 

Well I agree that if a gay guy was assaulted by a woman and suddenly had heterosexual attraction that is something work looking into! That my point! I want to know what can change in the human psyche after sexual assault that affects orientation, wether it be a gay person, a straight person, bi, whatever it might be, I'm not discriminating against it.

 

i don't think talking about these experiences diminishes the narrative of gay people who truly believe they are born gay, again, I think it can go both ways or be a mix of the two, I don't know for certain why people's sexualities are they way they are and neither does anyone really.

 

I understand that in some ways, gays think that this type of discussion can lead to more discrimination since it feeds the right wing rhetoric about grooming, I completely get it, but at the same time, we also have to be aware that there is an uncomfortably large group of queer people who have gone through sexual assault, both things can be true. Their voices on their life are valuable and I wish we didn't just shut people down when they talk about another reason for turning out queer that isn't just "being born this way".
 

I don't look at Cardi B as an authoritative voice on human sexuality LMAO, but what she said in essence isn't too far off from what I also have seen to be somewhat certain within our community. She does say some people are born gay, and I'd agree, I also agree with her statement on some people discovering same sex attraction after assault. I don't know why this needs to be a controversial thing really, we should accept queer people who are queer because of many circumstances.

[Sawk]

5 minutes ago, FOCK said:

The line of thinking you've outlined is the same one shared by men who think they can turn Lesbian women straight through assault & they'll "learn to like it". 

What??? Do you really think I'm supporting assault?  I'm literally talking about victims of sexual violence and not letting other people shut down their voices. 
 

Oh my God, all I'm trying to say is gay people who have gone through SA and develop these feelings after their traumatic event are just as valid as gay men who think they're born gay, I'm not telling anyone to go out and SA other people wtf 

[dinorhino]

19 minutes ago, Sawk said:

I don't need to cite sources because there isn't evidence that can tell you with complete 100% certainty why you are gay. No study will tell you there is a conclusive gay gene, in the same way no study will tell you being assaulted sexually made you gay, because… NO ONE knows why people turn out gay. 
 

it's extremely disappointing to want to have a back and forth of understanding and then to get dismissed because this narrative goes against what some gays want to push. I get that being "born this way" is what might lead for us to be accepted on a broader scale, but you're leaving out a group of people behind who don't  share that same experience.

 

i consider a gay who thinks he's gay because of assault just as valid as someone who thinks they are born gay, both are deserving of love and acceptance within the community and shutting people out because they're not the cookie cutter representation of the perfect gay is so f*cked up.
 

So much of our community has gone through trauma, why do we want to silence people who might have some insight as to why they have developed same sex attraction? Talking about experiences and also about the genetic factors help us get closer to understanding the root, not that I need to know why, I'll treat the assaulted gay and the born gay the same. 
 

And of course, I'm open to being criticized and I'm glad that you responded so we can talk, but I'm not gonna be silenced because my point of view isn't the most popular one either. 

There's a difference between someone who is gay versus someone who engages in homosexual behaviour, which can be a broad spectrum of sexualities including straight and it isn't even always consensual either

 

The other issue I have with this argument is that the pathologising only goes in one direction. If a man is SA'd by another man two outcomes can occur: stockholm syndrome where someone has a trauma response and seeks sexual attention from a man or avoidance of men and hyper-fixation on women. This can happen to both a straight and a gay guy and if the latter (avoidance of men) happened to a gay guy no one would be pathologising it even if it doesn't match his innate sexuality. But conservatives tend to only focus on one variant to fit their narrative

[Devin]

cardi dont have the range of intelligence to effectively communicate on this subject.

[PrettyHurts]

The irony of her being traumatized by the episode where someone gets drugged  

[Espresso]

Between Azealia's endless chaos, Doja's Nazi edgelord simping, Nicki's husband excuses and Covid disinfo and now this, people can call me corny for never really branching out outside Eve and Missy for my rap queens. All their **** distracts too much for me from their art.

[Sawk]

2 minutes ago, dinorhino said:

There's a difference between someone who is gay versus someone who engages in homosexual behaviour, which can be a broad spectrum of sexualities including straight and it isn't even always consensual either

 

The other issue I have with this argument is that the pathologising only goes in one direction. If a man is SA'd by another man two outcomes can occur: stockholm syndrome where someone has a trauma response and seeks sexual attention from a man or avoidance of men and hyper-fixation on women. This can happen to both a straight and a gay guy and if the latter (avoidance of men) happened to a gay guy no one would be pathologising it even if it doesn't match his innate sexuality. But conservatives tend to only focus on one variant to fit their narrative

Yeah, the first part is really tricky, I agree that not everyone guy who has some gay experiences is gay, but there's not even a way to quantify that, how many times do you need to have gay sexual experiences be considered gay? This is the whole thoughts vs actions debate for sexuality which is still being debated. 
 

your second point is interesting, I hadn't thought about the "gay" guy who avoids any interaction with men, some people would see him as asexual rather than gay, but I'm going to be honest I don't know in that case what I would classify him as, I still want to know more about these behaviors and I do not claim to be an expert in this topic, but I really do think that these traumatic experiences can have different effects on people, no one is the same, which is why I'm glad that it can be talked about more.

 

Also, I think conservatives will always try to find a way to justify their hatred for gay people, wether it's being "born that way" or turning gay because of an experience, I tend to ignore what they might have to say on the topic since they aren't even being honest about their intentions when talking about these topics. 

[dinorhino]

12 hours ago, Saintlor said:

Honestly, I know this is seen as wrong to say, but all of these stars who claim to be bi, I barely believe any of them. Literally zero bisexual major stars end up with a woman aside from someone like Cara Delevingne who seems legit.

 

Even if Cardi is bi, she isn't a gay man so I still don't think it's her place.

A lot of women, particularly female celebrities, like to claim their bi for attention me thinks. Socially it's acceptable for female sexuality to be a lot more fluid and something as simple as "I think a girl is very pretty" is enough for many if not most women to say they're bi if they're not ultra conservative. Many of this brand of bi women would be aghast at the thought of having sex with a woman and even more at the thought of being in a relationship with one, but still walk around and say they're bi for attention.

 

Same with bi men to a somewhat lesser degree and to varying extents it kind of applies to bi people in general tbfh. 

[Breathe On Moi]

Imagine having a discourse over this brain rot woman when she's moved on already off somewhere slipping mickeys 

[Weld_E]

8 minutes ago, PrettyHurts said:

The irony of her being traumatized by the episode where someone gets drugged  

Wait a damn minute I—

 

[dinorhino]

3 minutes ago, Sawk said:

Yeah, the first part is really tricky, I agree that not everyone guy who has some gay experiences is gay, but there's not even a way to quantify that, how many times do you need to have gay sexual experiences be considered gay? This is the whole thoughts vs actions debate for sexuality which is still being debated. 
 

your second point is interesting, I hadn't thought about the "gay" guy who avoids any interaction with men, some people would see him as asexual rather than gay, but I'm going to be honest I don't know in that case what I would classify him as, I still want to know more about these behaviors and I do not claim to be an expert in this topic, but I really do think that these traumatic experiences can have different effects on people, no one is the same, which is why I'm glad that it can be talked about more.

 

Also, I think conservatives will always try to find a way to justify their hatred for gay people, wether it's being "born that way" or turning gay because of an experience, I tend to ignore what they might have to say on the topic since they aren't even being honest about their intentions when talking about these topics. 

From a social perspective male sexuality tends to follow a one drop rule, so any homosexual activity will get you classified as at least non-straight if not outright gay, even if it wasn't consensual. However social perspectives don't dictate someone's sexuality so what it would be labelled as socially doesn't mean much, and someone might think they're gay because of social pressures but they can be mistaken just like many queer people later learning that they're trans, bi, gay, etc. But I say that to say that trauma from an assault doesn't always result in hypersexuality, or specifically hypersexuality with the same sex as your assailant as it can happen to the opposite sex in avoidance or just be asexual

 

It is fine to talk about it but it is an extremely dangerous slope to start giving credit to the whole "being gay comes out of trauma" narrative and add lots of caveats to it because it does give power to conservatives and homophobes as whether you like it or not you are giving them ammo to justify their pathologising of queer people, but I know it can't be helped. Just like me as an autistic person I very thoroughly believe that many queer people are neurodivergent and that affects both our reality, perception and sexuality as there is a heavy documented correlation between neurodivergent people being queer versus in the allistic population. But I'm aware this fits conservative's whole "gay people [and trans people] are mentally ill" narrative (and also fits gay abelists)

From my perspective I can't imagine the common response from a male assaulted by another man to often be to be hypersexual with other men in a trauma response of Stockholm syndrome just because of how intense the stigma of male homosexuality is unless the person is outright groomed under someone's tutelage but that's strict conditioning right there. The typical trauma response is avoidance, not hyper-fixation. 

[Espresso]

5 minutes ago, Breathe On Moi said:

Imagine having a discourse over this brain rot woman when she's moved on already off somewhere slipping mickeys 

21 minutes ago, PrettyHurts said:

The irony of her being traumatized by the episode where someone gets drugged  

[Batsy Armada]

She contradicted herself, saying that she believes all men aren't born gay then saying that they find out they're gay after they've been sexually assaulted. Which, if they're finding out something about themselves, then they always were—they just didn't realize it. I really don't understand why she felt the need to make these statements, especially regarding sexual abuse and trying to equate it to the cause of homosexuality. It just makes no sense, especially with her contradicting herself in the middle of it.

 

[Sawk]

4 minutes ago, dinorhino said:

From a social perspective male sexuality tends to follow a one drop rule, so any homosexual activity will get you classified as at least non-straight if not outright gay, even if it wasn't consensual. However social perspectives don't dictate someone's sexuality so what it would be labelled as socially doesn't mean much, and someone might think they're gay because of social pressures but they can be mistaken just like many queer people later learning that they're trans, bi, gay, etc. But I say that to say that trauma from an assault doesn't always result in hypersexuality, or specifically hypersexuality with the same sex as your assailant as it can happen to the opposite sex in avoidance or just be asexual

 

It is fine to talk about it but it is an extremely dangerous slope to start giving credit to the whole "being gay comes out of trauma" narrative and add lots of caveats to it because it does give power to conservatives and homophobes as whether you like it or not you are giving them ammo to justify their pathologising of queer people, but I know it can't be helped. Just like me as an autistic person I very thoroughly believe that many queer people are neurodivergent and that affects both our reality, perception and sexuality as there is a heavy documented correlation between neurodivergent people being queer versus in the allistic population. But I'm aware this fits conservative's whole "gay people [and trans people] are mentally ill" narrative (and also fits gay abelists)

From my perspective I can't imagine the common response from a male assaulted by another man to often be to be hypersexual with other men in a trauma response of Stockholm syndrome just because of how intense the stigma of male homosexuality is unless the person is outright groomed under someone's tutelage but that's strict conditioning right there. The typical trauma response is avoidance, not hyper-fixation. 

You're a legend, and I'm so grateful for this response, I'm really happy you didn't just who shut me down automatically for having a different opinion. 
 

By the way, I agree that JUST talking about the narrative that conservatives love to spread about gayness stemming from trauma can be hurtful, it's true. My problem personally is that in liberal circles they won't even hear you out at all when you talk about this, THAT'S why I have an issue with the way many people here reacted. I totally believe in the being born this way take, but I don't diminish the other side of the coin because I think it can be helpful to all about SA's impact on sexual orientation. 
 

I believe that having gays talk about their hurtful experiences and why it might have led them to feel in a different way to be a positive thing, I also believe that having gays talk about having felt gay since they were born to be a positive thing, I don't want any side to have dominance over the other necessarily. Originally, that was what I was talking about, giving a voice to other side of the coin that many people here want to ignore, but thank you for also mentioning the neurodivergent take that is also used against us. It's not fair how conservatives characterize us, but I don't think it's fair either to silence certain topics because we should be learning how to constructively combat their points. I would argue to them that it doesn't matter if someone was born gay or not, that doesn't mean that person doesn't deserve respect because of their queer identity. 

[dinorhino]

11 minutes ago, Sawk said:

You're a legend, and I'm so grateful for this response, I'm really happy you didn't just who shut me down automatically for having a different opinion. 
 

By the way, I agree that JUST talking about the narrative that conservatives love to spread about gayness stemming from trauma can be hurtful, it's true. My problem personally is that in liberal circles they won't even hear you out at all when you talk about this, THAT'S why I have an issue with the way many people here reacted. I totally believe in the being born this way take, but I don't diminish the other side of the coin because I think it can be helpful to all about SA's impact on sexual orientation. 
 

I believe that having gays talk about their hurtful experiences and why it might have led them to feel in a different way to be a positive thing, I also believe that having gays talk about having felt gay since they were born to be a positive thing, I don't want any side to have dominance over the other necessarily. Originally, that was what I was talking about, giving a voice to other side of the coin that many people here want to ignore, but thank you for also mentioning the neurodivergent take that is also used against us. It's not fair how conservatives characterize us, but I don't think it's fair either to silence certain topics because we should be learning how to constructively combat their points. I would argue to them that it doesn't matter if someone was born gay or not, that doesn't mean that person doesn't deserve respect because of their queer identity. 

I will say that I've not seen the show she's talking about so idk if that is going to change anything but in context of a show (and what she's saying in general) it's not inherently an issue. I just wish when this conversation would get brought up people can also bring up the fact that you can have a trauma response to be heteronormative as well, but no one ever does that; the focus is always on pathologising queerness. 

 

I 100% know what you're talking about in liberal circles and it makes it hard to engage with people on either side of the coin but it seems sometimes more pointed in liberal circles than conservative circles sometimes. Both sides are big on conformity and not questioning much or explaining themselves very well and liberals do it the worst, in my opinion, even though that's where my mindset lies. You're also correct in that in that it doesn't matter whatsoever if someone was born gay or not, because people should be allowed to love whoever they love for whatever reason. Homophobes do not have that energy for closeted queer people and promote staying in the closet, so despite them coming from a place of bad faith and trying to lead people on that they just want people to be themselves, they truly don't; they just want people to comply by cishet standards. 

 

It's always a pleasure to talk about difficult subjects like this. I understand the topic can be hard. This convo actually kind of reminds me of Simu Liu getting controversy for talking about some role he was doing that either involved playing a pedophile or some other character was a pedo and he had to do research and he spoke about how pedophilia is an innate sexual disposition and compared it to being gay and people were livid and were trying to cancel him and still are to varying degrees over it. Often times people think comparing is the same thing as equating and that's not true, and his point also was about how this framework helps treat people who are born that way (really only via medical castration) because assuming people are pedos by way of moral failing and deviousness and trying to shame it out of them out of it isn't effective and does more harm. Doesn't mean of course it should be accepted in any capacity for them to act on their desires or for them to be out and proud (none of that MAP stuff) but it's another case of particularly liberals shutting down convos and it potentially causing harm. Because not allowing conversation can cause confusion, disorder, and many times leading to the worst of a slew of options of treatment.