celeb news MNEK drags Beyoncé haters over songwriting credits

[swissman]

The audacity to think that entirely new teams of writers, each time, four albums in a row could create a run of albums that are both somehow cohesive within itself and to the larger album-run, while also having variation within itself and in the larger album-run is kind of ridiculous.

 

Like what's the shade about Lemonade? That it had 72 writers. Okay. Put 72 writers in a room for a week. No, give them a month. How about a year. Would the result ever end up as Lemonade without someone leading it all? Beyoncé is like a musical architect, and I am glad that she works so collaboratively because it makes her work rich and layered beyond words. It's almost narcissistic to think that you alone could always make stuff that will challenge both yourself and your audience artistically, and we see that those who write "themselves" almost always make the same kind of music with slight different flavours. Beyoncé, on the other hand, makes such a variety of music in HER flavour.

[Fleahive]

I haven't read this thread but why are people still faux outraged? There's way less writers than Renaissance and 99% of main pop acts have at least 4 song writers per track. The difference is a lot of them work with the same tired people on every track which is why their albums all sound the same. Beyoncé works with different writers for each track. What's the big whoop?

Edited April 6 by Fleahive

[Chris]

1 hour ago, swissman said:

But can you name any where the person suing her won, or where they even settled out of court?

It's hilarious how they are chirping that she has been sued and defeated however no one is listing examples.

[Chris]

54 minutes ago, swissman said:

Like what's the shade about Lemonade? That it had 72 writers

What people don't also comprehend is the use of samples. Everyone not only has to be credited but they have to clear the sample in order for it to even be on the album. If there is a sample that has not been cleared by the proper party, the entire album can be pulled.

 

Oh and of course how they are mute on how Beyonce gets blessings from the people she covered such as Dolly and Paul, right?

 

[Cain]

Whether an album is creative depends on… the album itself? Like the final output?

 

 

[swissman]

On 4/3/2024 at 5:27 PM, Josh said:

An album doesn't need over a thousand of song writers just to write the most simplest lyrics Beyonce claims to write

Songwriting is more than just lyrics, let's start there.

 

But if you'd do any bit of research into the collaborative process of Beyoncé, you'd realize that she tends to combine several different writers' work (or that written by a couple of people) which is why a song may end up with 8 writers on it, because maybe 2 wrote the chorus, another one wrote something that Beyoncé used as the intro, another two wrote the bridge, two producers are credited for creating the beats, and then Beyoncé is credited for putting it all together, adding her verses,, re-writing lines or melodies as needed, etc.

 

You may think this is less personally impressive than sitting on your bed and writing into your diary and turning that into a song, but then those kind of artists rarely have a work as full and meaningful as AMERIICAN REQUIEM. There's something to be said for concise writing credits but that doesn't take anything away from things created on a larger scale, just like how the Mona Lisa isn't inherently better than the Sistine Chapel just because Da Vinci (presumably) painted it all himself while Michelangelo had a team of artisans to assist him. The results are both works of art and appreciated in different ways, primarily through the scope of the results.

 

 

Edited April 6 by swissman

[Josh]

6 minutes ago, swissman said:

Songwriting is more than just lyrics, let's start there.

 

But if you'd do any bit of research into the collaborative process of Beyoncé, you'd realize that she tends to combine several different writers' work (or that written by a couple of people) which is why a song may end up with 8 writers on it, because maybe 2 wrote the chorus, another one wrote something that Beyoncé used as the intro, another two wrote the bridge, two producers are credited for creating the beats, and then Beyoncé is credited for putting it all together, adding her verses,, re-writing lines or melodies as needed, etc.

 

You may think this is less personally impressive than sitting on your bed and writing into your diary and turning that into a song, but then those kind of artists rarely have a work as full and meaningful as AMERIICAN REQUIEM. There's something to be said for concise writing credits but that doesn't take anything away from things created on a larger scale, just like how the Mona Lisa isn't inherently better than the Sistine Chapel just because Da Vinci (presumably) painted it all himself while Michelangelo had a team of artisans to assist him. The results are both works of art and appreciated in different ways, primarily through the scope of the results.

 

 

So a song like Cuff It needs more than one writer?

[swissman]

4 minutes ago, Josh said:

So a song like Cuff It needs more than one writer?

Did you entirely skip reading what I wrote or???

[Josh]

1 minute ago, swissman said:

Did you entirely skip reading what I wrote or???

Yes I did cause you lost me when you compared Beyonce to Mona Lisa

[Chris]

[swissman]

20 hours ago, Josh said:

So a song like Cuff It needs more than one writer?

I'll bite though. Let's start by reviewing what I actually said, since you seem to have not read it and confirmed as much in your second reply.
 

20 hours ago, swissman said:

Beyoncé...tends to combine several different writers' work (or that written by a couple of people) which is why a song may end up with 8 writers on it, because maybe 2 wrote the chorus, another one wrote something that Beyoncé used as the intro, another two wrote the bridge, two producers are credited for creating the beats, and then Beyoncé is credited for putting it all together, adding her verses,, re-writing lines or melodies as needed, etc.

CUFF IT
Written by 9 writers: Beyoncé Knowles, Denisia Andrews, Brittany Coney, Morten Ristorp, Raphael Saadiq, Terius Nash, Mary Christine Brockert, Allen McGrier, Nile Rodgers

Each of their contributions will be outlined below:

• CUFF IT's earliest iteration came from Raphael Saadiq (Writer 1), who created a guitar riff that was meant for his own band, but he then sent it to The-Dream.
• The beat was originated by Denisia Andrews (2) who showed it to Brittany "Chi" Coney (3) who then put her own lyrical ideas into it. Together they sent it to Beyoncé (4) who they were working with.
  • In Brittany Coney's words: "to give it to her and for her to take it to the next level and bring in other collaborators, it's so dope just to see the process from the greatest."
• The-Dream (5) received the guitar lick Raphael Saadiq created, and brought it forward to add to what was being being worked on.
• Morten Ristorp (6) assisted in production, and usually a Beyoncé producer also gets a writing credit (and here all do).
• A Teena Marie sample of Ooo La La occuring for about 2 seconds adds additional writers Mary Christina Brockert (7) and Allen McGrier (8) 
• The song was almost complete but Beyoncé wanted to take it to the next level. The-Dream, who when talking about this was quoted as saying "Bey had brought the thing halfway home" then brought on Nile Rogers (9) to finish it by playing guitar on the track, who also then added his own guitar writing into the final piece, thus his credit.

 

 

Edited April 7 by swissman

[swissman]

19 minutes ago, Josh said:

Yes I did cause you lost me when you compared Beyonce to Mona Lisa

Then you didn't read it because actually I compared Beyoncé to the Sistine Chapel.

[PrettyHurts]

It's funny because Cowboy Carter has way less writers in comparison to Renaissnace. If you actually look at the credits without samples, there are at most 6 writers per song. Some of them have 2 or 3 writers. Which is not a lot of if songs were produced in multiple sessions and other people were brought in to add ideas. Only the first track has a large amount of writers.  

Edited April 6 by PrettyHurts

[dumbsparce]

The paragraph person losing it over not everyone sucking Bey's dick. I just don't think she's this huge ""ARTISTIC"" genius or some 2nd coming of Zeus. She makes some good songs (like plenty of others do) and looks cunty on camera which is great but nothing that justifies such glorification. FOR ME.

Edited April 6 by dumbsparce

[CécredSpaces]

On 4/4/2024 at 6:26 AM, QueenB said:

The lyrics are only credited to The Dream and Tricky, the music is ARRANGED by them and Beyoncé, look at wikipedia if you don't believe me.

So who claimed they were stolen? The original singer didn't even write it, and her name is not on the writing credits.

 

meanwhile the actual writers work with her to this day, and constantly say how involved she is in the process

 

On 4/4/2024 at 6:36 AM, feelslikeadream said:

You're acting as if I claimed she stole credits from people on CC, when I didn't say that. I simply pointed to a past history of questionable writing credits and said that IF she is still doing that kind of thing (e.g. changing one word, then being listed as a writer), then that's an issue. And if that's not the case, great! I don't really care, but am allowed to express concern based on past history

 

..... You must be looking at the wrong song, dear. Try reading again.

I have been a fan of Beyoncé since 2003 and have memorized almost every song's writing and production credits, so I know this is objectively untrue. She is credited as a writer in "Smash Into You." Here's the booklet:

 

 

As a fan of Jon McLaughlin, I also know he doesn't have one song in any of his albums or EPs where he hasn't written anything. I firmly believe Beyoncé's credit originally belonged to Jon. There must have been an agreement. The reason I say this is that Jon McLaughlin's publishing company is still in the ASCAP credits despite him not being listed as a writer anymore.

 

https://www.ascap.com/repertory#/ace/search/workID/496276312

Edited April 7 by CécredSpaces

[Sonny]

LMAOOO I'm glad that annoying account got dragged. Tired of seeing the same few Swiffers on my timeline.

[superben]

On 4/4/2024 at 4:33 AM, Shelter said:

Write a song there Josh. 
 

 

 

On 4/4/2024 at 4:28 AM, Lose My Breath said:

Lets see the credits on your album though

 

On 4/4/2024 at 4:33 AM, Shelter said:

Write a song there Josh. 
 

 

Josh there is a random ATRL user, not a veteran artist  So, Beyonce's songwriting capability is on the same level as Josh or something?

 

 

[Lovett]

11 hours ago, dumbsparce said:

The paragraph person losing it over not everyone sucking Bey's dick. I just don't think she's this huge ""ARTISTIC"" genius or some 2nd coming of Zeus. She makes some good songs (like plenty of others do) and looks cunty on camera which is great but nothing that justifies such glorification. FOR ME.

And by "losing it" you mean clocking the lies, inaccuracies and purposeful trolling with facts and reality. Which gets people like you incredibly mad, because you want to spout your delusions and whining without being clocked.   We know.

[swissman]

On 4/3/2024 at 6:06 PM, feelslikeadream said:

Try reading again. I did not contradict myself lol. I was describing a hypothetical situation.

 

And I'm talking specifically about her real history of credit swiping. That's not Twitter vibes. She stole those Smack Into You credits long before Twitter threads were made about her questionable ethics when it comes to credits 

Here's where we get into technicalities though.

 

Beyoncé's version and Jon McLaughlin's are ostensibly alike, but for one very evident change: the swap from "Smack" to "Smash" which is obvious even in the song title.

 

Now, I don't think I nor anyone has claimed this is a major change, but it is a change nonetheless and one that will now forever be how the song is deemed "written". Unless we can get ahold of the publishing percentages and you know for a fact that her share of the royalties far exceeds that which she contributed, there should be no problem.

 

There should be no problem ESPECIALLY when Beyoncé affords this same thing to writers of HER tracks, too. Independent Women was solo written until Columbia wanted it to be more "pop" and brought in more writers/producers to edit it with her. And those songwriters have said they let Beyoncé take the lead on that. Beyoncé's assistant who is NOT a songwriter has several songwriting credits and we have video footage of her offering the word "upgrade" when Beyoncé couldn't remember the term she was thinking about. Similarly, the writers credited for the Show Me Love sample on BREAK MY SOUL contributed exactly NOTHING (not a melody, not a lyric, not even a word) to the final piece because what was sampled was a synth from a remix they did not create. And yet they're credited.

 

So, I think if we are going to say that Beyoncé "stole" any credits that others have also "stole" them from her, or at the least, that she's given the same generosity back to others because that is simply how she works: if you contribute to the final track, you have co-written it.

 

 

Edited April 7 by swissman

[swissman]

I don't mind at all being called "the paragraph person". It's a step up from a few paragraphs being called an "essay" because it's not two sassy sentences.

 

The simple fact of the matter is that I'm on ATRL for one reason alone: to discuss pop, and my discussion of pop is usually centred on my own fave, someone I know a lot about, and thus am willing and happy to discuss in detail.

 

 

 

The thing though that is most hilarious about any discussion of her songwriting abilities is that it is perhaps the one thing most critiqued about her talents, and yet it's actually NOT at all what the public nor her fans hold up as "the reason we love her." And so we see this odd push-and-pull between haters and fans despite the fact that the conclusion of the discussion (in either direction) actually won't matter. To say "she's not the goddess everyone wants to make her seem because she doesn't write everything she produces" assumes that writing is the reason she's considered a pop goddess, and not the fact that she's been at the top for nearly 3 decades, is one of the greatest performers of all time, has an amazing voice, amazing creativity that has only improved and increased with time, puts out landmark, game-changing albums that impact both charts and culture, pushes boundaries, does things her way, etc. etc. etc. The songwriting ability is literal trivia comparatively. Even from a fan, reminding people she wrote the verses in Formation that give the song its true meaning is trivia. It doesn't matter because regardless the song has meaning and that's what it's remembered/loved/praised for. But ok she uses a lot of co-writers. You got her!

 

 

Edited April 7 by swissman

[Kristie Kuwa]

On 4/6/2024 at 6:01 PM, swissman said:

The audacity to think that entirely new teams of writers, each time, four albums in a row could create a run of albums that are both somehow cohesive within itself and to the larger album-run, while also having variation within itself and in the larger album-run is kind of ridiculous.

 

Like what's the shade about Lemonade? That it had 72 writers. Okay. Put 72 writers in a room for a week. No, give them a month. How about a year. Would the result ever end up as Lemonade without someone leading it all? Beyoncé is like a musical architect, and I am glad that she works so collaboratively because it makes her work rich and layered beyond words. It's almost narcissistic to think that you alone could always make stuff that will challenge both yourself and your audience artistically, and we see that those who write "themselves" almost always make the same kind of music with slight different flavours. Beyoncé, on the other hand, makes such a variety of music in HER flavour.

Ironically, they wanna make it seem like someone like Taylor whos closely working with Antonoff for the like 3rd time I believe is better, when in fact it could easily be judged as a plateauing of creativity and output. It always depends on the narrative they wanna push

[Chris]

The people in here dismissing @swissman is hysterical to me because he is actually providing evidence while the haters are talking delusions of grandeur.

 

 

[Jay07]

On 4/5/2024 at 10:03 PM, Miss Americana said:

We actually do...

Demoes from the songwriting camps leak after a while and we can piece the rest through interviews and other ****.

6 inch:

 

Hold Up:

 

Daddy Lessons:

 

Sandcastles:

 

PYCYM:

 

Love Drought:

 

Formation:

the beat was intended for Miley Cyrus. Rae Sremmurd wrote the entire first verse and hook.

 

I don't get what this is supposed to prove. That someone else came up with a beat or a hook? Yeah, that's why they're credited. Do you think if Beyonce was really stealing or falsifying credits she would allow these things to exist on Youtube and WIkipedia of all places? Like, some critical thinking please.

[Kill Me]

1 hour ago, Jay07 said:

I don't get what this is supposed to prove. That someone else came up with a beat or a hook? Yeah, that's why they're credited. Do you think if Beyonce was really stealing or falsifying credits she would allow these things to exist on Youtube and WIkipedia of all places? Like, some critical thinking please.

I provided 5 examples of songs that were completely written before reaching the hands of the curators of the Lemonade writing camp.

Claiming credits on a song you had no hand in creating is a very common industry practice. Not my fault you refuse to believe this.

[swissman]

4 hours ago, Miss Americana said:

I provided 5 examples of songs that were completely written before reaching the hands of the curators of the Lemonade writing camp.

Claiming credits on a song you had no hand in creating is a very common industry practice. Not my fault you refuse to believe this.

Let's review them though, shall we?

Your point seems to be that all those songs/demos shared existed in their entirety before Beyoncé recorded them, thus her writing credits were not justified.

 

However:

6 Inch:

• The final song has different instrumentation than what was shared
• The final song has slightly different lyrics than what was shared
• Final has entirely new bridge not existing in demo

Hold Up

• What you shared does not represent a completely written song.
  • In fact what he actually says in this very video is: "A lot of times when you're working with someone you might not write the whole song that day ... the verses are empty but [what's played in the video] [has] my hook on it."
• In his own tweet he wrote: "lots of other stuff happens to that demo in terms of production/writing. Beyoncé 100% made it her own."

Daddy Lessons

• The quoted text is from Kevin Cossom who worked with Diana Gordon to co-write the track.
• Here is what Diana Gordon said about Beyoncé's involvement: "When I played it for her, I was like, 'This is one of my favorite songs.' She was like, 'This is my life.' I told her, 'You know what, take it, do what you want with it' She went and re-produced it, she changed some words, added the bridge, it's hers."

Sandcastles

• What you quoted leaves out another part of the same wikipedia article that states: "The final version of the song featured new lyrics at the end written by Beyoncé" This is confirmed in this interview where the original writer Vincent Berry II details why Beyoncé changed the end of the song.

Pray You Catch Me

• The video you shared is not a demo, but does seem to be an "original" version of the song as it has lyrics that are not included in the final song.
• The actual song has a much more extended outro with more vocals he doesn't do, extra instrumentation and a spoken line added at the very end.
• This was also co-written by James Blake. Does that mean James Blake also stole a writing credit from Kevin Garrett (singing in the video, who says "I" when talking about writing this)

Love Drought

• Though we don't know exactly what Beyoncé contributed, we know Mike Dean is a co-producer and a co-writer. If we are to believe from the video you shared that she alone wrote the entirety of the song, then Mike Dean's writing credit would be unfairly earned too. Do you think that's the case? Or perhaps he and Beyoncé as the two producers wrote enough to earn their writing credits?

Formation

• What you shared is a piece of the story. It proves the chorus was written by Rae Sremmurd.
• This is what Mike WiLL Made-It has said about the writing:
  • "She wrote all her lyrics for the most part. The thing is, she's fair. It was a real collaborative effort between me, Pluss, Sremm, and her. We just split everything collectively, but she wrote both of her verses and she got inspired by what Jimmy said…From there, it was really more about her family. It was really more about her family, her heritage and where she comes from, so that's something that Swae Lee or anybody really couldn't write the way she wrote it, because she probably really totes hot sauce in her bag."
  • In this same interview he continues talking about all the things she added to the song, including horns, etc.

 

 

 

In conclusion, nothing you shared proves what you said it proves.

 

 

 

Edited April 8 by swissman