Kassi Posted April 7 Posted April 7 2 hours ago, John Slayne said: Nobody is saying that the president should be Jesus or infallible, I'm just commenting on the idea that centrists and liberals expect progressives and leftists to vote for someone who does not represent their worldview. It's just ridiculous and not how elections work. Yes, candidates do and should earn their votes, they are not entitled to them. That's the point of democracy and elections. When Hillary lost that was on her and DNC for not being able to provide a better alternative to Trump. And it's going to be the same this year when Biden loses. That's why Hillary saying 'get over it' is so f*cking dumb. Like that's the thinking that lost her the election and the fact that she does not see that is crazy. But in my personal opinion she does see it but just does not care because at the end of the day Trump's presidency is not a threat to her as a wealthy white woman and it's definitely not a threat to the DNC. If anything, Trump winning is a blessing for Democrats (as f'd up as that is) because then they can ask people for more money and support and they can point finger at Trump as a reason why. This is soooo insane to me. Do you not realize that the policy overlap between all of these people is like 95%? Pick a topic. Healthcare Leftist Position: Universal healthcare, typically through a single-payer system like Medicare for All, ensuring healthcare as a right, not a privilege Hillary Clinton: As First Lady, spearheaded efforts for universal healthcare reform in the 90s. Ended up with the Children's Health Insurance Program. Nancy Pelosi: Attempted to push single payer through in the 90s. Made a full leap towards universal coverage with the Affordable Care Act (ACA). Mind you, one of Bernie's biggest (and few) legislative accomplishments was piggybacked off of that bill Climate Leftist Position: Aggressive action on climate change, including transitioning to renewable energy, implementing Green New Deal-like policies, and global leadership on climate issues. Joe Biden: Introduced the first climate bill into the Senate in the 70s. Recently passed the biggest climate action bill in US history. Nancy Pelosi: Pushed the American Clean Energy and Security Act in 2009 through Congress -- our CO2 emission has only gone down ever since. War Leftist Position: Generally anti-war, advocating for diplomacy over military intervention, reducing military spending, and ending ongoing conflicts. Nancy Pelosi: Like Bernie, voted against the Iraq War, used her first term as Speaker to force Bush into withdrawing, which he vetoed, but in exchange raised the minimum wage as part of that bill. Joe Biden: Voted for the Iraq War but has since advocated for ending "forever wars" (i.e. withdrawing from Afghanistan) and focusing on diplomatic solutions. And the list goes on. The only thing different about Bernie is that he's slightly more left on healthcare. But he has some positions, like immigration, where he's more right than Pelosi. Or Fetterman who's basically a Republican on Israel. There's no functional difference between these people. It's only in how they campaign on the issues. People like Bernie, who aren't expected to deliver, can literally say anything to get their base excited. So unless you're a communist... they DO represent your worldview, you just disagree on approach or rhetoric. --- Before the 2016 election, Hillary, a former first lady, was considered one of the most popular figures across the US. She had like a 60% favorable ratings at one point. Only Obama had more star power. The negative coverage during the 2016 campaign did her in -- basically imagine she's a pop girl at the top of her game and they're trying to take her down type of coverage. The email story should not have gone on as long as it did. Biden, a lifelong Senator, former VP, and most progressive President of our lifetimes, has already beat Trump. By definition, these are the strongest Democratic candidates of their elections. 2 1 2
Kassi Posted April 7 Posted April 7 32 minutes ago, Thesedays said: There are literally no straw-mans in my replies, and all your arguments have already been directly refuted. But you know, accepting that would require some critical thinking skills, awareness of the world beyond your stanning for a corrupt politician, and reading comprehension so... You've literally not refuted anything. You just insulted me and made up some shallow lie about Pelosi opposing universal healthcare. None of which have anything to do with the fact that voting 3rd party/protest voting is useless. 1 2
Gaia Posted April 7 Posted April 7 On 4/2/2024 at 8:32 AM, GraceRandolph said: Democrats think they own our votes and don't have to EARN them. No one thinks that. The consensus is voting for a 3rd party who has obviously no chance of winning is a useless vote. You're not obligated to vote for anyone, but it's also just a note that if someone worse does in fact win the election than Biden then you NOT voting as a legally aged adult does make you equally as responsible. So thinking you're abstaining from getting your hands dirty is stupid. There's no guarantee Trump will be worse for Palestinians. But he could be the exact same while also making life a lot worse for a lot of Americans as he ALREADY has like Roe v. Wade. Your hands aren't "clean" because you don't vote or make a useless vote. 2 1 3
GraceRandolph Posted April 7 Posted April 7 5 hours ago, Gaia said: No one thinks that. The consensus is voting for a 3rd party who has obviously no chance of winning is a useless vote. You're not obligated to vote for anyone, but it's also just a note that if someone worse does in fact win the election than Biden then you NOT voting as a legally aged adult does make you equally as responsible. So thinking you're abstaining from getting your hands dirty is stupid. There's no guarantee Trump will be worse for Palestinians. But he could be the exact same while also making life a lot worse for a lot of Americans as he ALREADY has like Roe v. Wade. Your hands aren't "clean" because you don't vote or make a useless vote.
Thesedays Posted April 7 Posted April 7 (edited) 19 hours ago, OnikaSlays said: Yeah, this virtue signaling isn't going to work on me. Trump is openly Zionist, and told Israel to "finish the job" in Gaza. He may literally turn this into a full scale war if he gets back into office. Darling, if this is an argument in favor of Biden, you're going to need to mention things about Trump that don't apply to Biden. Biden is openly Zionist (he literally declared, "I am a proud zionist" in his last TV appearance 1 month ago) and is sending billions and billions of weapons to Israel AS OF TODAY. Please, be barely educated so you can at least have a convincing argument in favor of your candidate. Now, I don't really care if you're going to vote for Biden or not. What is disgusting is not your support of him per se, but you literally saying people who don't have "blood in their hands." Now, there needs to be a complete lack of self-awareness to use that expression when it comes to supporting a literal genocide supporter. The fact this is "virtue signaling" for you also underlines the fact we don't think liberals are any better than Republicans. Both rotten. Edited April 7 by Thesedays 2
Thesedays Posted April 7 Posted April 7 18 hours ago, Kassi said: You've literally not refuted anything. You just insulted me and made up some shallow lie about Pelosi opposing universal healthcare. None of which have anything to do with the fact that voting 3rd party/protest voting is useless. Voting third party is useless if you're intention is to get Democrats elected. Since that isn't ours, and we think they're just as bad as Republicans, it isn't useless even if they won't get elected. Not that difficult to comprehend but we're dealing with someone who thinks Pelosi supports universal healthcare so yea... 2 1
Thesedays Posted April 7 Posted April 7 9 hours ago, Gaia said: No one thinks that. The consensus is voting for a 3rd party who has obviously no chance of winning is a useless vote. You're not obligated to vote for anyone, but it's also just a note that if someone worse does in fact win the election than Biden then you NOT voting as a legally aged adult does make you equally as responsible. So thinking you're abstaining from getting your hands dirty is stupid. There's no guarantee Trump will be worse for Palestinians. But he could be the exact same while also making life a lot worse for a lot of Americans as he ALREADY has like Roe v. Wade. Your hands aren't "clean" because you don't vote or make a useless vote. I love that people pretend as if Roe v. Wade didn't happen during Biden's presidency. And he did literally nothing except fearmonger to get more votes. Unfortunately, this refusal to face reality will work against the country in general because as long as liberals remain completely obtuse there's no way out. 1
Thesedays Posted April 7 Posted April 7 19 hours ago, Kassi said: This is soooo insane to me. Do you not realize that the policy overlap between all of these people is like 95%? Pick a topic. Healthcare Leftist Position: Universal healthcare, typically through a single-payer system like Medicare for All, ensuring healthcare as a right, not a privilege Hillary Clinton: As First Lady, spearheaded efforts for universal healthcare reform in the 90s. Ended up with the Children's Health Insurance Program. Nancy Pelosi: Attempted to push single payer through in the 90s. Made a full leap towards universal coverage with the Affordable Care Act (ACA). Mind you, one of Bernie's biggest (and few) legislative accomplishments was piggybacked off of that bill Climate Leftist Position: Aggressive action on climate change, including transitioning to renewable energy, implementing Green New Deal-like policies, and global leadership on climate issues. Joe Biden: Introduced the first climate bill into the Senate in the 70s. Recently passed the biggest climate action bill in US history. Nancy Pelosi: Pushed the American Clean Energy and Security Act in 2009 through Congress -- our CO2 emission has only gone down ever since. War Leftist Position: Generally anti-war, advocating for diplomacy over military intervention, reducing military spending, and ending ongoing conflicts. Nancy Pelosi: Like Bernie, voted against the Iraq War, used her first term as Speaker to force Bush into withdrawing, which he vetoed, but in exchange raised the minimum wage as part of that bill. Joe Biden: Voted for the Iraq War but has since advocated for ending "forever wars" (i.e. withdrawing from Afghanistan) and focusing on diplomatic solutions. And the list goes on. The only thing different about Bernie is that he's slightly more left on healthcare. But he has some positions, like immigration, where he's more right than Pelosi. Or Fetterman who's basically a Republican on Israel. There's no functional difference between these people. It's only in how they campaign on the issues. People like Bernie, who aren't expected to deliver, can literally say anything to get their base excited. So unless you're a communist... they DO represent your worldview, you just disagree on approach or rhetoric. --- Before the 2016 election, Hillary, a former first lady, was considered one of the most popular figures across the US. She had like a 60% favorable ratings at one point. Only Obama had more star power. The negative coverage during the 2016 campaign did her in -- basically imagine she's a pop girl at the top of her game and they're trying to take her down type of coverage. The email story should not have gone on as long as it did. Biden, a lifelong Senator, former VP, and most progressive President of our lifetimes, has already beat Trump. By definition, these are the strongest Democratic candidates of their elections. If we're going by this logic of "look where they were in the 90s!!! Let's ignore everything they did since then!" then you should be happy Trump was elected because, in the past, he was a big Clinton supporter and donator. So yea, by electing Trump you basically elected a huge Clinton supporter and friend!
Kassi Posted April 7 Posted April 7 52 minutes ago, Thesedays said: If we're going by this logic of "look where they were in the 90s!!! Let's ignore everything they did since then!" then you should be happy Trump was elected because, in the past, he was a big Clinton supporter and donator. So yea, by electing Trump you basically elected a huge Clinton supporter and friend! Why do you hate progress? Seriously. For almost a hundred years, Democrats like FDR, Truman, JFK, and LBJ tried to get universal healthcare done thru single-payer. After trying AGAIN and failing under Clinton, why would Nancy Pelosi try the exact same thing x2? No one's asking you to look at only the 90s, but to consider it as part of the larger story leading into the '10s. Getting the ACA passed was a huge deal, especially since the alternative was an all-or-nothing retread of single-payer. Remember, we couldn't even get the public option passed in the Senate, so single-payer was a distant dream. Like, why are you so obsessed with this ONE path to universal coverage? In the time since, would you have preferred that: Kids DON'T get to stay on parents' plan until 26? More low-income folks DON'T get Medicaid coverage? People with pre-existing condition DON'T get treatment? Why are you upset that Pelosi laid down the next bricks toward a better system down the road? Are you also upset at LBJ for *only* doing Medicare and Medicaid? Are you also upset at FDR for *only* including federal grants for public health services in the Social Securities Act? Universal healthcare is easily one of the most unifying issues for the Democratic Party and it's not even close. 1 3
Kassi Posted April 7 Posted April 7 57 minutes ago, Thesedays said: Voting third party is useless Yes 1
John Slayne Posted April 8 Posted April 8 21 hours ago, Kassi said: War Leftist Position: Generally anti-war, advocating for diplomacy over military intervention, reducing military spending, and ending ongoing conflicts. Joe Biden: Voted for the Iraq War but has since advocated for ending "forever wars" (i.e. withdrawing from Afghanistan) and focusing on diplomatic solutions. the fact that you wrote this without mentioning Gaza (you know, THE topic Biden is getting dragged for right now) that's crazy 21 hours ago, Kassi said: Before the 2016 election, Hillary, a former first lady, was considered one of the most popular figures across the US. She had like a 60% favorable ratings at one point. Only Obama had more star power. The negative coverage during the 2016 campaign did her in -- basically imagine she's a pop girl at the top of her game and they're trying to take her down type of coverage. The email story should not have gone on as long as it did. Biden, a lifelong Senator, former VP, and most progressive President of our lifetimes, has already beat Trump. By definition, these are the strongest Democratic candidates of their elections. Like I said, if you still think Biden can beat Trump this year - good luck. Because you'll need lots of it if the polls are anything to go by.
John Slayne Posted April 8 Posted April 8 21 hours ago, Kassi said: Do you not realize that the policy overlap between all of these people is like 95%? Pick a topic. Also this is just blatantly false. None of Biden's 'achievements' where nowhere near what Bernie was actually running on. $15 minimum wage? N/A Student debt forgiveness? N/A Green New Deal? N/A M4A? N/A By your logic Biden should've achieved 95% of the above, so where is it? And that's with Biden having more favourable Congress situation than majority of presidents throughout history. These last four years were literally the perfect time for the US to make A LOT of progress in many areas and what did they get instead? Biden's tweets about what 'needs' to be done (as if he wasn't the president) and the genocide in Gaza. Like I'm sorry but seeing Biden's presidency as a success for progress is so misguided and outside of reality. That said, yes of course Trump would be worse and I don't want Trump to win, but Democrats absolutely do need to run a better candidate. Biden is toast. 2
Kassi Posted April 8 Posted April 8 42 minutes ago, John Slayne said: the fact that you wrote this without mentioning Gaza (you know, THE topic Biden is getting dragged for right now) that's crazy Like I said, if you still think Biden can beat Trump this year - good luck. Because you'll need lots of it if the polls are anything to go by. Gaza is a foreign war between Hamas and Israel. 1 2
GraceRandolph Posted April 8 Posted April 8 4 minutes ago, Kassi said: Gaza is a foreign war between Hamas and Israel. 1
Kassi Posted April 8 Posted April 8 1 hour ago, John Slayne said: Also this is just blatantly false. None of Biden's 'achievements' where nowhere near what Bernie was actually running on. $15 minimum wage? N/A Student debt forgiveness? N/A Green New Deal? N/A M4A? N/A By your logic Biden should've achieved 95% of the above, so where is it? And that's with Biden having more favourable Congress situation than majority of presidents throughout history. These last four years were literally the perfect time for the US to make A LOT of progress in many areas and what did they get instead? Biden's tweets about what 'needs' to be done (as if he wasn't the president) and the genocide in Gaza. Like I'm sorry but seeing Biden's presidency as a success for progress is so misguided and outside of reality. That said, yes of course Trump would be worse and I don't want Trump to win, but Democrats absolutely do need to run a better candidate. Biden is toast. $15 minimum wage was in the White House proposed budget plan, passed Nancy's House, and was stripped out in the Senate (where Bernie works). Student loan forgiveness was blocked by the Supreme Court on constitutional grounds Green New Deal isn't legislation, it's just a resolution. Even if it was legislation, putting all of your chips on the Green New Deal is a sign you don't take climate change seriously, because only a portion of it even deals with climate change. Half of it is just Bernie's stump speech. The climate parts are so fantastical that they're impossible to take seriously. Even for Bernie... who already voted against it. Medicare-For-All is a stand in for single payer (one of many ways to achieve universal healthcare), which has already been attempted and has never come close to passing. Legislators should be able to suggest alternatives rather than sit on their hands while people die of illness. Biden had some of the narrowest majorities in modern history. For example, he came in with a 50-50 Senate (48 Dem, 2 Indies, 50 Reps). Without those Georgia wins he would not have had any Congress. Biden is the best candidate because he's been President and has already beat Trump (who's also been President). There's literally no one else more qualified...
Kassi Posted April 8 Posted April 8 15 minutes ago, GraceRandolph said: How many cease-fires has the US, Egypt, and Qatar negotiated that either Israel or Hamas have rejected? Do the participants of the war not have any agency?
GraceRandolph Posted April 8 Posted April 8 2 minutes ago, Kassi said: How many cease-fires has the US, Egypt, and Qatar negotiated that either Israel or Hamas have rejected? Do the participants of the war not have any agency?
GraceRandolph Posted April 8 Posted April 8 16 minutes ago, Kassi said: $15 minimum wage was in the White House proposed budget plan, passed Nancy's House, and was stripped out in the Senate (where Bernie works). Student loan forgiveness was blocked by the Supreme Court on constitutional grounds Green New Deal isn't legislation, it's just a resolution. Even if it was legislation, putting all of your chips on the Green New Deal is a sign you don't take climate change seriously, because only a portion of it even deals with climate change. Half of it is just Bernie's stump speech. The climate parts are so fantastical that they're impossible to take seriously. Even for Bernie... who already voted against it. Medicare-For-All is a stand in for single payer (one of many ways to achieve universal healthcare), which has already been attempted and has never come close to passing. Legislators should be able to suggest alternatives rather than sit on their hands while people die of illness. Biden had some of the narrowest majorities in modern history. For example, he came in with a 50-50 Senate (48 Dem, 2 Indies, 50 Reps). Without those Georgia wins he would not have had any Congress. Biden is the best candidate because he's been President and has already beat Trump (who's also been President). There's literally no one else more qualified... Y'all make so many excuses for Dem leadership failure. Has Biden used the bully pulpit to push senators on these issues? He's just a feckless war criminal who can't be bothered.
Kassi Posted April 8 Posted April 8 6 minutes ago, GraceRandolph said: So he asked them to open the Erez crossing and permit the temporary delivery of aid via the Ashdod port in order to facilitate the entry of more humanitarian supplies into Gaza?That's a good thing. The fact that he has ask should clue you in the simple fact that... Israel is a completely sovereign country responsible for its wars.
Kassi Posted April 8 Posted April 8 10 minutes ago, GraceRandolph said: Y'all make so many excuses for Dem leadership failure. Has Biden used the bully pulpit to push senators on these issues? He's just a feckless war criminal who can't be bothered. Biden uses the bully pulpit constantly, and every time he does you guys go "YOU'RE THE PRESIDENT DO SOMETHING." Not to mention, Briahna is a liar. Student debt failed because a $1 trillion transaction conducted through the executive branch is unprecedented. Even military aid in the billions has to go thru Congress before the President can disseminate it according to the intent of the bill (see: Trump's 1st impeachment). But to answer your question, yes. He has used his bully pulpit, even used it to try and void the Senate filibuster. Nobody cares though cause Congress is a co-equal branch of government. And he doesn't have a MAGA base to threaten Senators to get in line... though, even that has its limits when you consider Trump couldn't get his Wall, Obamacare Repeal, Infrastructure, or $2k Checks.
GraceRandolph Posted April 8 Posted April 8 2 minutes ago, Kassi said: Biden uses the bully pulpit constantly, and every time he does you guys go "YOU'RE THE PRESIDENT DO SOMETHING." But to answer your question, yes. Nobody cares though cause Congress is a co-equal branch of Congress. And he doesn't have a MAGA base to threaten Senators to get in line... though, even that has its limits when you consider Trump couldn't get his Wall, Obamacare Repeal, Infrastructure, or $2k Checks. No ones buying the corporate Dem talking points anymore. Dems couldn't codify Roe during Obama's first term not because they didn't have the numbers but because it's too good of a bargaining chip for fundraising and voter turnout. Same thing with student debt cancellation. Biden bypassed congress multiple times to ship weapons to Israel that kill children but we're supposed to view Israel as 100% independent? It's just not the truth. The corporate Dem lies have been exposed and we're not buying it anymore!
Kassi Posted April 8 Posted April 8 Just now, GraceRandolph said: No ones buying the corporate Dem talking points anymore. Dems couldn't codify Roe during Obama's first term not because they didn't have the numbers but because it's too good of a bargaining chip for fundraising and voter turnout. Same thing with student debt cancellation. Biden bypassed congress multiple times to ship weapons to Israel that kill children but we're supposed to view Israel as 100% independent? It's just not the truth. The corporate Dem lies have been exposed and we're not buying it anymore! Well, no. Dems didn't have the numbers in '09... and we know this because the ACA almost collapsed over abortion care coverage. Pelosi had to call in every favor, including from high up in the Catholic church. https://time.com/5832330/nancy-pelosi-obamacare/ Quote How Nancy Pelosi Saved the Affordable Care Act The U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops had announced that while it supported expanding health care, it would not endorse the bill unless it sharply restricted access to abortion, and a small group of pro-life members would not commit to vote for the bill unless the bishops signed off. And so, when the Church's position on abortion became the final sticking point in the House's 2009 health care talks, it was personal for Pelosi. She tried everything she could to get around the bishops' opposition. She put language in the bill banning abortion funding. She personally phoned a cardinal she knew in Rome. She won over groups of nuns. But none of it was enough. The bishops sent a bulletin to every American parish calling for the bill to be defeated if they didn't get their amendment. And so, on that Friday, after a long day of negotiations, she summoned her liberal female colleagues in and laid out the situation. As the therapy session wore on, she ordered cheeseburgers for everyone and continued to listen. It was 11 p.m. by the time the women stormed out of the meeting, furious at the reality Pelosi had forced them to acknowledge: the bill wasn't happening without the bishops' amendment, and they weren't going to let the bill go down after they'd come this far. She knew it, and they knew it. She sat with them until they realized there was no other way.
GraceRandolph Posted April 8 Posted April 8 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Kassi said: Well, no. Dems didn't have the numbers in '09... and we know this because the ACA almost collapsed over abortion care coverage. Pelosi had to call in every favor, including from high up in the Catholic church. https://time.com/5832330/nancy-pelosi-obamacare/ Maybe if Dems want to be able to pass more progressive legislation Pelosi should stop supporting anti-choice Dems like Henry Cuellar. Edited April 8 by GraceRandolph
OnikaSlays Posted April 8 Posted April 8 4 hours ago, Thesedays said: Darling, if this is an argument in favor of Biden, you're going to need to mention things about Trump that don't apply to Biden. Biden losing, due to you and the others putting their feelings over logic, will put Trump in the office. What part of that is so hard to understand? I mentioned Trump's position on Gaza to put things into perspective, since foreign affairs is the only thing you seem to care about. Letting him win is not the way you're going to "free Palestine" What you, and the other "resist" libtards need to understand is that you're not sticking it to Biden or the Dems by not voting blue. You're quite literally throwing millions of Americans under the bus for your personal grievances. That is why you'll have "blood on your hands" 1
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