Thesedays Posted April 8 Posted April 8 5 minutes ago, Gesamtkunstwerk said: French people did this, because otherwise they would've gotten Le Pen over Macron 1. Le Pen will eventually be elected anyway. 2. French people have class consciousness and know how to protest and defend their rights, which is how they stopped and barred several of Macron's austerity proposals and reforms, forced him to backtrack, and got several concessions from him. Now, is that the case with the US public? If it's not, why are you comparing the situation to France knowing it's like comparing apples and oranges?
wastedpotential Posted April 8 Posted April 8 1 minute ago, Thesedays said: Lmao. I was following along with this logic (even if I didn't 100% agree with you) until you started treating hating the US as some pathological/mental health issue and not just a rational and logical conclusion coming from anyone who's aware of history. Maybe it's time for you to stop solely focusing on statistics on exports of farm mechanical equipment and Trump's quote and start browsing some history books? x I got my bachelors in history, I promise you I've spent plenty of time poring over a history textbook. I'm more than cognizant of the damage the US has wreaked throughout its history, and think there are more than a few condemnable incidents in its history (I mean, if you were replying from your real account, I'd send you a paper I wrote about the US involvement in the 1885 crisis and the thousand days war in Colombia). However, I think it's incredibly naive to the horrors of history to attempt to negatively contrast the US regime with that of Tamerlane or the Shang Dynasty or hell, even something quite recent like the Marcías regime. Furthermore, I do think it's a bit ridiculous to declare that every single American citizen deserves to suffer because of the actions of their government, and that a universal condemnation that originates in a place of wallowing and self-flagellation is just a miserable argument to make.
Thesedays Posted April 8 Posted April 8 13 minutes ago, wastedpotential said: I got my bachelors in history, I promise you I've spent plenty of time poring over a history textbook. Got a bachelors in history and thinks being disgusted by the US is a mental right issue to the point of mocking. Well, it kind of tracks considering how US university education/propaganda works. https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2024/2/29/kennedy-school-kissinger-professorship/ 3
wastedpotential Posted April 8 Posted April 8 2 minutes ago, Thesedays said: Got a bachelors in history and thinks being disgusted by the US is a mental right issue to the point of mocking. Well, it kind of tracks considering how US university education/propaganda works. https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2024/2/29/kennedy-school-kissinger-professorship/ Oh I think it's perfectly valid to be disgusted with the US's actions over the past several decades, but I do think the fatalist "the world would be better off if every single American died a horrific death" argument that user has been making for several months warrants further consideration of the state of the person making the argument for the sake of contextualizing its merits. Arguing "actually, every single American deserves to be inflicted with the greatest punitive measures possible because of the things their government does, because they vote for that government in an environment where there are zero other choices!" isn't likely to be a successful path to convince Americans that it's in their best interests to... you know... agree with your argument. Plus, for what it's worth, my historical focus was the 17th century (usually too far back in history to be relevant for propagandizing), and I got my masters degrees (international relations and civil war studies) outside the US, and didn't find the perspective to be particularly different. I'm not sure what your academic background on this topic is, but I'd be interested to hear about your vast exposure to the world of true knowledge that exists behind the veneer of American propaganda. Either way, we've wandered far off topic. It's the unfortunate reality of the electoral environment in the US today that there is no positive outcome for Gaza, and that all but the most ideologically motivated of voters will probably come to terms with that fact. Hillary is not the ideal messenger to be making this point given her baggage, but she is not off base. 1 1
Thesedays Posted April 8 Posted April 8 (edited) 9 minutes ago, wastedpotential said: Oh I think it's perfectly valid to be disgusted with the US's actions over the past several decades, but I do think the fatalist "the world would be better off if every single American died a horrific death" argument that user has been making for several months warrants further consideration of the state of the person making the argument for the sake of contextualizing its merits. Well, this argument isn't really being used. 14 hours ago, ClashAndBurn said: Holding out for four years when everyone knows that an eventual government flip to full-blown fascism is an inevitability so that the people who are comfortable with genocide as long as it's happening a world away can cobble together an escape plan and claim asylum seems like a farce. It's not the same as what you framed. At the end of the day, this focus on Biden is pointless because we know Biden won't make **** better. So what you're doing exactly? Postponing the chaos for 4 more years so we can forever be in this vicious circle? If that's what you have to offer, no wonder the majority of people are completely disillusioned. 9 minutes ago, wastedpotential said: I'm not sure what your academic background on this topic is, but I'd be interested to hear about your vast exposure to the world of true knowledge that exists behind the veneer of American propaganda. Sure. It's called being born and raised left-wing in Latin America and being aware of my own history. 9 minutes ago, wastedpotential said: It's the unfortunate reality of the electoral environment in the US today that there is no positive outcome for Gaza, and that all but the most ideologically motivated of voters will probably come to terms with that fact. As long as people like you keep painting the smallest concessions (all people are asking right now is a CEASEFIRE, not making BDS a national policy) as unachievable and that nothing will change, then yes. But I am sure you don't consider yourself part of the problem, do you? Edited April 8 by Thesedays 3
OnikaSlays Posted April 8 Posted April 8 (edited) 4 hours ago, Thesedays said: That's cool darling. But just a quick look at your arguments shows that "voting" does not make you any more of a conscious citizen than the non-voters you're enraged about. You seem to think voting for Democrats is a big deal that makes you an honorable person. Meanwhile, you're totally ignorant about the plight of people abroad, value more the lives of Americans than the ones your government and tax money are destroying elsewhere, and are completely apathetic about genocide to the point you think stopping it is completely and totally futile and impossible. To you, the most important thing in the world to avoid chaos is to elect Biden. Does that show any deep knowledge or any commitment to either a better world or a better country for the marginalized? No. Does that show any real commitment to anything except "vote blue no matter who"? No. It's just ignorant, lazy, navel-gazing where "Project 2025" is the end of human civilization, and there's nothing else going on. It's shameful; it won't convince anyone, and it isn't even historically accurate. Doing the bare minimum with the intent of electing Biden isn't showing any responsibility or care for the marginalized. It's weird that you have some superiority complex over apathetic non-voters (which isn't the case with anyone arguing against Biden here btw. None of the non-Biden supporters are "apathetic") as if you're either more aware than them or doing more than them to improve the country's situation. I know it's a tough pill to swallow, but that's not the case here, based on your own stated arguments. I'm not reading all that, but from the bits and pieces I did read, all you're doing is deflecting and avoiding the root of my points I'm trying to make. No, voting doesn't make you a good person, but NOT voting when you know the stakes of the election definitely doesn't make you a good person either. As a politically educated adult in America, it IS your civic duty to vote and help shape the future for our country, and others. I'm not sorry that I care about preserving the human rights of the individuals within my own country and refuse to reduce this election to "Biden bad.” Throwing the election, over a singular issue that literally won't change no matter who wins, benefits nobody but them. There's too much at stake here to behave that selfishly. Maybe Republicans reshaping the US with far-right policies won't be as bad I think, but I'm also not trying to **** around and find out. I'm gay, black, and have a disability. I also have loved ones who will negatively be impacted once **** goes left if Trump wins. You won't gaslight me into thinking that me, and others who are just voting against Trump are the bad guys here. Edited April 8 by OnikaSlays
Thesedays Posted April 8 Posted April 8 (edited) 32 minutes ago, OnikaSlays said: I'm not reading all that, but from the bits and pieces I did read, all you're doing is deflecting and avoiding the root of my points I'm trying to make. "Not reading all of that", but decides to leave a huge wall of text as a reply. Despite a) not being able to read a long text yourself, b) admittedly not bothering to read what you're trying to reply to. Embarrassing and, once again, lacking self-awareness. Quote No, voting doesn't make you a good person, but NOT voting when you know the stakes of the election definitely doesn't make you a good person either. No one is claiming NOT voting makes someone inherently a good person, so an argument that is entirely beside the point. Maybe try to read things before wasting your time replying to them? Quote As a politically educated adult in America, it IS your civic duty to vote and help shape the future for our country, and others. How does that square into "voting for Biden" is anyone's guess. Quote Throwing the election, over a singular issue that literally won't change no matter who wins, benefits nobody but them. There's too much at stake here to behave that selfishly. It is actually galling how selfish and completely unaware of reality you are by insisting on the "there's nothing we can personally do to improve the situation in Gaza right now so do not focus on that and vote blue no matter who" argument. Once again, you insist on adjectives ("selfish") and expressions that are much more fitting to you than to whoever you're debating with. Quote You won't gaslight me into thinking that me, and others who are just voting against Trump are the bad guys here. Again, we're not arguing voting against Trump/for Biden makes you the "bad guy." What we're arguing is that you selfishly criticizing people who refuse to do so is stupid and does not make you the "good guy". Just as voting for Biden doesn't really mean you legit care about the marginalized beyond yourself, which is clear by your lack of knowledge and the words you chose to make your argument ("it is selfish to vote for Biden for Gaza because nothing will change", "refusing to vote for Biden because he supports a genocide makes you have blood in your hands", etc). Edited April 8 by Thesedays 1
OnikaSlays Posted April 8 Posted April 8 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Thesedays said: "Not reading all of that", but I decided to leave a huge text as a reply. Despite a) not being able to read a long text, b) admittedly not bothering to read what you're trying to reply to. Embarrassing as **** and, once again, lacking self-awareness. No one is claiming NOT voting makes someone inherently a good person, so an argument that is entirely beside the point. Maybe try and read things before wasting your time replying to it? How does that square into "voting for Biden" is anyone's guess. It is actually galling how selfish and completely unaware of reality you are by insisting on the "there's nothing we can personally do to improve the situation in Gaza right now" argument. Once again, you insist on adjectives ("selfish") and expressions that are much more fitting to you than to whoever you're debating with. Again, we're not arguing voting against Trump/for Biden makes you the "bad guy." What we're arguing is that you selfishly criticizing people who refuse to do so is stupid and does not make you the "good guy". Just as voting for Biden doesn't really mean you legit care about the marginalized beyond yourself, which is clear by your lack of knowledge and the words you chose to make your argument ("it is selfish to vote for Biden for Gaza because nothing will change", "refusing to vote for Biden because he supports a genocide makes you have blood in your hands", etc). Again, not reading these paragraphs you're using to cope with the fact that you're a selfish individual who only cares more about appearing woke to your online friends or whoever you'll brag about not voting to. I hope you make peace with your decision when it backfires in 2025 You know you're wrong asf when you cherry pick the parts of the post you want to respond to. Edited April 8 by OnikaSlays 2
Thesedays Posted April 8 Posted April 8 (edited) 7 minutes ago, OnikaSlays said: I hope you make peace with your decision when it backfires in 2025 The only one who seems to be coping here is you. No one cares if you're voting for Biden or not; we're just arguing against your stupid arguments that aren't applicable to the real world and show that, unlike what you seem to believe, you're not the good/superior person you think you are. But your inability to read paragraphs does explain how you reached some of these stupid conclusions. Anyway, we're all completely at peace with our decision because it's not like these stupid arguments haven't been used with us ever since 2017. You're the one who seems a bit behind, both in your comprehension of the world and the country. So yes, as someone who isn't rich and is part of a marginalized group, I hope you try and grow up a little so you won't keep shooting yourself in the foot .. tl,dr: the "not reading any of your arguments and not trying to understand what i am arguing against but let me repeat myself for the 2938th time on how I am right and voting blue no matter who is what makes you a good person" logic is liberal logic in a nutshell. Edited April 8 by Thesedays
OnikaSlays Posted April 8 Posted April 8 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Thesedays said: But your inability to read paragraphs does explain how you reached some of these stupid conclusions. I'm fully capable of reading your responses, but I'm just not that interested in what you have to say. Trying to paint me to be a dumbass who doesn't know what I'm talking about, while twisting my words and literally refusing to engage with my replies with any ounce of logic. Nobody in the real world, aside from chronically online leftists, agrees with your point of view. Maybe you're the one who needs to grow up. Edited April 8 by OnikaSlays 1
Thesedays Posted April 9 Posted April 9 1 minute ago, OnikaSlays said: Nobody in the real world, aside from chronically online leftists, agrees with your point of view. Maybe you're the one who needs to grow up. LMAO, so the intellect level is so low that we're now giving merits to arguments on how popular they are in the "real world" (sic). Guess what? Your arguments are indeed popular with "real world" liberals, which is why there's a huge chance Biden won't be reelected, and there's a huge chance that Trump, himself historically unpopular and with several criminal charges behind him, is getting back in power. Because these arguments, despite being "popular" and often repeated in the real world by loyalist liberals with no real idea or interest in the world outside their own little bubble, are ineffective and stupid. The popularity of said stupid and selfish arguments also helps us understand how we're witnessing one of the biggest genocides in modern history, funded by your tax dollars and no one with any institutional power -- Democratic or Republican -- is trying to stop it. I hope you're proud. 1
Tovitov Posted April 10 Posted April 10 (edited) She's right. Hillary lost for multiple reasons and I'm not blaming voters. But Trump winning cost this country Roe v Wade. Women are literally going septic because they no longer have access to life saving healthcare. Not to mention the decades of environmental protections undone by his three SCOTUS justices. I'm scared what another Trump term could bring. Is Gay Marriage next on the chopping block, what about Trans legal protections? A humanitarian crisis when Trump tries to deport millions of immigrants? I know Biden isn't perfect and I know his handling of Israel has offended many, but I'm voting for Biden because there are no other options. We've already lost so much thanks to 4 years of Trump, I don't want to lose more. Edited April 10 by Tovitov 1
barbiegrande Posted April 10 Posted April 10 (edited) On 4/7/2024 at 9:23 PM, ClashAndBurn said: Biden losing, due to him putting his ideological commitment to Zionism over American democracy, will put Trump in the office. What part of that is so hard for liberals to understand? Surely it would be easier to pressure the genocider-in-chief to change his policy than it is to demand millions of people hold their noses to re-elect someone they're utterly disgusted by. But the more liberals scream at uncommitted voters that what they're doing is dangerous and can only help Trump, the more Biden sees that he doesn't have to commit to anything other than platitudes to get those voters back, because there's still plenty of voters that he'll never lose under any circumstance. Anyway, frankly, I'm fine with throwing the people of this evil country under the bus for my personal grievances because I despise America and at this point all of its people. None of us deserve anything other than the pain and suffering we've wrought on the world brought back tenfold upon ourselves. Speak for yourself beloved. Edited April 10 by barbiegrande 1
Recommended Posts