XDNA Posted March 16 Posted March 16 18 hours ago, GraceRandolph said: What if a voter makes an informed choice to vote third party? It's possible and rational if the candidate has a real chance of winning. This is far more likely in local elections not the presidential election. It's also possible in a safe state that's solid blue where people have the privilege of being less affected by federal policies (especially if they are white people too). It's fine to protest vote in this case, but they should still be responsible and acknowledge their privilege and not go on pointless online rants with the goal of demoralizing others which in turn could affect the results.
XDNA Posted March 16 Posted March 16 18 hours ago, Communion said: I'm sorry but you're appearing out of your depth here. I get why liberals, even affluent ones who approach politics as more of a privilege 'stan' wars thing, want to see the good in voting. And how they're tangled up inside over the fact that Biden - the nominee forced on everyone - is purposefully tossing this to Trump. I'm sympathetic, but that sympathy runs short when it takes just 5 minutes of having discussed politics online to know why the arguments you're putting forth are incoherent. No one is "changing subjects". You're simply unable to address the reality put in front of you. - There is no evidence that 3rd party voters cost Democrats electoral victories because 3rd party voters are far too ideological to be swing voters - Democrats are quite literally burning money on anti-democratic efforts to ban said 3rd parties from ballots like they continue to do - Biden is more likely to 'lose to the couch' via non-voters (disproportionately poor POC) staying home because of his pivot to the right to court rich suburbanites - Clinton's loss in 2016 shows this reality as having already occurred, with her loss literally being because poor black Wisconsinites decided to stay home - Representational affluent signifiers like Clinton did and right-wing affluent signifiers like Biden is doing similarly do nothing to rally the Dem base - Just as the onus for her own loss was on Clinton's shoulders, Biden's loss will be his sole responsibility for prioritizing his own Zionism over his base I'm sorry you're clearly upset that Biden is an awful candidate and is even going further than 2020, now intentionally destroying the very coalition that won him 2020. I'm not upset. I asked you a question because I was curious to understand your main argument. But what I received in turn was a word salad of bullet points grasping at straws and often irrelevant claims. If you're not able to articulate your argument in a coherent problem statement then there's a disconnect. Anyway, I wont continue with this because it's clearly not going anywhere productive. 1 1
woohoo Posted March 17 Posted March 17 On 3/14/2024 at 10:49 PM, Ryan said: Good. Third party candidates will play a spoiler to Biden and he needs to win. I don’t really care if people don’t like him or think he’s too old. The other options are actually worse and terrible and this isn’t the time to **** around with nonsense protest votes. Exactly. I’m voting for Biden because I’m worried about Thomas and Alito retiring under Trump then we’re screwed with 5 semi young conservative Supreme Court justices for 30 years. This is why republicans win because the majority of democrats and leftist and progressives don’t play the long game. They want it right here and right now. Zero patience. Until some of the moderate dem boomers and Republican boomers die off this is what we’re stuck with, or you know, more of us come to the polls instead of complaining on forums and tiktok. It’s gotten better but not even near where we need to be turnout wise. 1
GraceRandolph Posted March 17 Author Posted March 17 5 minutes ago, woohoo said: Exactly. I’m voting for Biden because I’m worried about Thomas and Alito retiring under Trump then we’re screwed with 5 semi young conservative Supreme Court justices for 30 years. This is why republicans win because the majority of democrats and leftist and progressives don’t play the long game. They want it right here and right now. Zero patience. Until some of the moderate dem boomers and Republican boomers die off this is what we’re stuck with, or you know, more of us come to the polls instead of complaining on forums and tiktok. It’s gotten better but not even near where we need to be turnout wise. It's actually Democratic leadership that didn't play the long game. Obama didn't codify Roe when he had a supermajority and RBG didn't retire when it was clear she should've. 2
woohoo Posted March 17 Posted March 17 8 minutes ago, GraceRandolph said: It's actually Democratic leadership that didn't play the long game. Obama didn't codify Roe when he had a supermajority and RBG didn't retire when it was clear she should've. They had a supermajority for like 6 weeks who are you kidding. Agree on RGB but trump also got 2 more nominees before her passing. Again, republicans as crazy and unhinged as they are, are totally unify when they need too. We however, have spilt into about 4 subgroups on the left who cannot fathom aligning with a side that doesn’t suit our needs 100%. Purity test politics will be the end of us.
GraceRandolph Posted March 17 Author Posted March 17 14 minutes ago, woohoo said: They had a supermajority for like 6 weeks who are you kidding. Agree on RGB but trump also got 2 more nominees before her passing. Again, republicans as crazy and unhinged as they are, are totally unify when they need too. We however, have spilt into about 4 subgroups on the left who cannot fathom aligning with a side that doesn’t suit our needs 100%. Purity test politics will be the end of us. Is it purity testing to not vote for a candidate funding a genocide?
ClashAndBurn Posted March 17 Posted March 17 2 hours ago, woohoo said: They had a supermajority for like 6 weeks who are you kidding. Agree on RGB but trump also got 2 more nominees before her passing. Again, republicans as crazy and unhinged as they are, are totally unify when they need too. We however, have spilt into about 4 subgroups on the left who cannot fathom aligning with a side that doesn’t suit our needs 100%. Purity test politics will be the end of us. You're complaining about purity testing over not suiting 100% of our needs when the Democrats are so insufficient that they barely satisfy 10%.
GhostBox Posted March 17 Posted March 17 same one who waste their votes this year will look back with regret the same way the ones in 2000 and 2016 do 💀 2 1 4
woohoo Posted March 17 Posted March 17 1 hour ago, ClashAndBurn said: You're complaining about purity testing over not suiting 100% of our needs when the Democrats are so insufficient that they barely satisfy 10%. Laugh away but I see leftists on here slamming people way farther left than Biden could ever dream of being. There is literally no pleasing you unless you get every single thing you want out of a candidate and that’s why I don’t take any of you seriously. Is Biden great? Absolutely not, but at the end of the day Trump giving you 0% of what want > Biden giving your example of 10% of what want? But by all means it’s your choice to sit this one out or vote third party, whatever you desire it’s just hopeless because regardless of the outcome leftist are never gonna stop complaining because it’s impossible for any candidate to be perfect, that’s why you don’t show up in primaries for anyone. I thought I was a leftist because that’s what people in my conservative area have always called me but this site makes me a progressive at the absolute most left. Kinda glad I’m not and just realistic. 4
ClashAndBurn Posted March 17 Posted March 17 1 hour ago, GhostBox said: same one who waste their votes this year will look back with regret the same way the ones in 2000 and 2016 do 💀 Nah. I won't, because every single one of you genocide-supporting liberals deserve what's coming if Trump wins. 1
Headlock Posted March 17 Posted March 17 9 hours ago, woohoo said: Absolutely not, but at the end of the day Trump giving you 0% of what want > Biden giving your example of 10% of what want? What a campaign slogan, that’ll get the voters to the polls! 1 1
Communion Posted March 18 Posted March 18 55 minutes ago, slimfem said: *article details Democrats' plans to use legally dubious tactics to strip third party candidates from things like ballot access* "Hmmm isn't it odd people will vote 3rd party yet candidates have better chances of winning as Democrats??" Some of you are fundamentally out of your intellectual depth here. 4
45seconds Posted March 18 Posted March 18 On 3/14/2024 at 10:10 PM, Gladiator said: This country will never recover from being reduced down to a two party political climate. Reduced ? It’s always been a two party system.
Gladiator Posted March 18 Posted March 18 17 minutes ago, 45seconds said: Reduced ? It’s always been a two party system. Well yes, you are right. But I'm speaking of it being reduced far, far back during the conception of the constitution. Prior to that, there is documentation of Washington trying to advocate against it being reduced to the then Federalists and Democratic-Republicans, which is what happened very quickly.
slimfem Posted March 18 Posted March 18 10 hours ago, Communion said: *article details Democrats' plans to use legally dubious tactics to strip third party candidates from things like ballot access* "Hmmm isn't it odd people will vote 3rd party yet candidates have better chances of winning as Democrats??" Some of you are fundamentally out of your intellectual depth here. Yeah you seem like a real scholar lmao Just go ahead and vote for trump or waste your vote, if you can get your head out your own ass long enough to find the way! 3
Mastamaind Posted March 18 Posted March 18 (edited) 13 hours ago, Communion said: *article details Democrats' plans to use legally dubious tactics to strip third party candidates from things like ballot access* "Hmmm isn't it odd people will vote 3rd party yet candidates have better chances of winning as Democrats??" Some of you are fundamentally out of your intellectual depth here. *slimfem posts meme pointing out how ridiculous is to vote third party (in this very difficult situation which is: flawed democrat vs. full-on fascism) and how doing it that is basically voting republican.* You deflect the point and choose to reply to half of what they're saying: "democrats have more chances of winning than a third party" and ignore a very important part of it, which is that if you vote third party, you're voting republican. Not only that, after the deflection you do an ad hominem attack: "some of you are fundamentally out of your intellectual depth here" to further diminish what they're saying. Seriously, you're intelligent but sometimes you use that intelligence to step on whatever you don't like anyone else saying. We're against fascism here, it's serious, does the increase of bigotry against the LGBTQ in the latest years, Roe v. Wade, rise of fascism all over the world (thanks to the POS previous president) do not mean anything to you? Joe Biden didn't create the support of Israel, it's an alliance with the US since Israel's creation, 1948, that's like blaming Obama for Irak. The US is allied for Israel the same way NATO countries are allied to each other. I am disgusted by that Israel support of course, horrified by what's happening to Palestine/Gaza. However, we have more possibilities of pressuring a democrat (Biden) to stop that support or end that genocide/war than we would have with Donald "Piece of Sh*t" Trump bffr I'll repost the meme and hope that if you choose to reply, you reply to that point: Voting 3rd party is voting republican (same goes for people who don't show up to vote for the same reasons). This is how the "I won't vote for Biden" crew looks. Biden may be seriously flawed but the other choice is full-on fascism that is an imminent danger not only to the US, but the whole world and its destiny/livelihood. Let that sink in already. Edited March 18 by Mastamaind 4
Communion Posted March 18 Posted March 18 44 minutes ago, Mastamaind said: *slimfem posts meme Where in my post did I address the meme? I literally address the statistics they tried to use as an argument. And pointed out the criticism being held isn't that Dems somehow unfairly win more. Of course they win more than 3rd party candidates. The criticism is that Democrats betray their alleged values and only further alienate 3rd party voters - who are more ideological - by doing things like described in the ORIIGINAL ARTICLE and elsewhere. That trying to underhandedly deny people access to ballots and ironically be fascist by suppressing 3rd parties invalidates any argument that Dems can - and should - make about them being the more realistic choice to inact progressive legislation. There is no excuse for Democrats to try and uphevel democracy via shady tactics used to deny 3rd party candidates from running in races. Period. If you want to win an election, be the most convincing and get.the most votes on merit.
Communion Posted March 18 Posted March 18 50 minutes ago, Mastamaind said: Voting 3rd party is voting republican (same goes for people who don't show up to vote for the same reasons) Also this is literal illiteracy. There is no coherent thought here. You might as well be saying "A vote for Pineapple Pizza is a vote for Joe Biden". It's illogical. It's no different in its removal from logic than those who say a vote for Joe Biden is a vote for pedophilia. A vote for a 3rd party is neither a vote for Biden or Trump. Not voting is not a vote at all. Neither of these are votes for Trump. You have failed millions of poor people with this nonsensical argument like in 2016 by failing to provide compelling reasons to vote and you will be why Trump wins if you cannot articulate any compelling reason to vote for Biden. Make an argument rooted in reality. "A vote not for Biden is a vote for Trump" is akin to basically going "Red Biden, Blue Biden, One Biden, Two Biden". You're talking in circles.
Mastamaind Posted March 18 Posted March 18 (edited) 50 minutes ago, Communion said: Where in my post did I address the meme? I literally address the statistics they tried to use as an argument. And pointed out the criticism being held isn't that Dems somehow unfairly win more. Of course they win more than 3rd party candidates. The criticism is that Democrats betray their alleged values and only further alienate 3rd party voters - who are more ideological - by doing things like described in the ORIIGINAL ARTICLE and elsewhere. That trying to underhandedly deny people access to ballots and ironically be fascist by suppressing 3rd parties invalidates any argument that Dems can - and should - make about them being the more realistic choice to inact progressive legislation. There is no excuse for Democrats to try and uphevel democracy via shady tactics used to deny 3rd party candidates from running in races. Period. If you want to win an election, be the most convincing and get.the most votes on merit. Exactly, you didn't address it which was my point, you didn't really reply to what they were saying. However, yeah, democrats did betray their values but long before that, when multiple 2020 campaign promises weren't fullfilled. We have bigger fish to fry, though, which is to beat POS Trump. We can talk about shady democrat tactics or how they didn't do this or that but if that POS wins, we can expect this: And much worse which means we're f*cked. So let's put things in perspective. 44 minutes ago, Communion said: Also this is literal illiteracy. There is no coherent thought here. You might as well be saying "A vote for Pineapple Pizza is a vote for Joe Biden". It's illogical. It's no different in its removal from logic than those who say a vote for Joe Biden is a vote for pedophilia. A vote for a 3rd party is neither a vote for Biden or Trump. Not voting is not a vote at all. Neither of these are votes for Trump. You have failed millions of poor people with this nonsensical argument like in 2016 by failing to provide compelling reasons to vote and you will be why Trump wins if you cannot articulate any compelling reason to vote for Biden. Make an argument rooted in reality. "A vote not for Biden is a vote for Trump" is akin to basically going "Red Biden, Blue Biden, One Biden, Two Biden". You're talking in circles. A vote for a third party is a vote that could have gone to the democrats, the only vote that can rival republicans, and in that case, one vote in favor of the fascists. Not voting is one vote that could have rivaled republicans, so one vote in favor of them. It's not illogical, it's simple math. The Democratic Party is the only party that can rival republicans, any vote not to them is a vote in favor of those fascists. I really wish I could give you more reasons than to beat POS Trump however, sadly, it has come to this. The most important reason to vote democrat is to beat that POS and that's all there's to it. Edited March 18 by Mastamaind
ClashAndBurn Posted March 18 Posted March 18 18 minutes ago, Mastamaind said: A vote for a third party is a vote that could have gone to the democrats Wrong. A vote for a third party just wouldn't vote if that option wasn't available. You guys are SO bad at this whole "getting people to vote FOR you" thing that you're actually turning off voters that might have voted for Dems downballot even if they didn't necessarily care for Genocide Joe. You're actually more likely to get more Republicans elected by blocking third party candidates from running for president. It's so ******* funny how liberals think that we need to safeguard democracy by having less democracy. What a disgrace. 1
KeirGrey Posted March 18 Posted March 18 2 minutes ago, ClashAndBurn said: Wrong. A vote for a third party just wouldn't vote if that option wasn't available. You guys are SO bad at this whole "getting people to vote FOR you" thing that you're actually turning off voters that might have voted for Dems downballot even if they didn't necessarily care for Genocide Joe. You're actually more likely to get more Republicans elected by blocking third party candidates from running for president. It's so ******* funny how liberals think that we need to safeguard democracy by having less democracy. What a disgrace. And trump winning is a safeguard? 1
Mastamaind Posted March 18 Posted March 18 (edited) 1 hour ago, ClashAndBurn said: Wrong. A vote for a third party just wouldn't vote if that option wasn't available. You guys are SO bad at this whole "getting people to vote FOR you" thing that you're actually turning off voters that might have voted for Dems downballot even if they didn't necessarily care for Genocide Joe. You're actually more likely to get more Republicans elected by blocking third party candidates from running for president. It's so ******* funny how liberals think that we need to safeguard democracy by having less democracy. What a disgrace. I'm not a "liberal", I'm just endorsing the democrats because of the dire situation we're in. I also missed the part where I agreed about suppressing a third party in the ballot 'cause I didn't, I just said voting third party mathematically means voting republican, and that's true. Now, a conscious person that would morally vote third party, would actually vote democrat if the other choice was that bad. That's how Biden got some of the 2020 votes: https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2021/06/30/behind-bidens-2020-victory/ Let me quote the article for you: "Overall, third-party 2016 voters who turned out in 2020 voted 53%-36% for Biden over Trump, with 10% opting for a third-party candidate." So you're wrong. He also appealed to them with some of his 2020 campaign promises, we're in trouble with that because of those unfulfilled promises. Also, people who don't normally vote but choose to do so can change election results. That's how Biden got Arizona, Navajo Nation, which doesn't normally have that big of a turnout, looked at the threat, got up and voted Biden, that's how we got the state. https://www.npr.org/sections/live-updates-2020-election-results/2020/11/13/934591289/how-the-navajo-nation-helped-flip-arizona-for-democrats I do understand and I agree that Biden's backing of Israel in its genocide has been disastrous, but what makes you think POS Trump would be any better? He would amp up the war: https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2024/03/trump-on-gaza-war-israel-comments-not-what-they-seem.html And would deny the possibility of a Palestinian state: https://www.vox.com/policy/24072983/biden-trump-palestinians-israel-gaza-policy-different So I really don't understand this moral high ground some of you are standing on. I repeat, a third party vote and not voting equals a republican vote, and that moral high ground some of you're standing on is literally gonna send us to the apocalypse, I'm not exaggerating. Edited March 18 by Mastamaind 1
ClashAndBurn Posted March 18 Posted March 18 Just now, Mastamaind said: what makes you think POS Trump would be any better? What makes you think POS Biden would be any better once he no longer has to worry about the burden of re-election? Israel getting away with a full genocide, intent and all, completely aligns with Biden's ideology as he's shown throughout his decades-long career. He's a bloodthirsty maniac, and he has a history of wanting more Arab blood spilled than any pre-Netanyahu Israeli leader.
PoisonPill Posted March 18 Posted March 18 The only reason I would vote for Biden at this point is the Supreme Court.
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