Gottasadae Posted February 16 Posted February 16 1 hour ago, Luckitty said: Another dead islamophobe, good riddance Not a twitter account that hiding behind Disney picture character and spreading FSB propaganda, labelling ukrainians as nazis and promoting putin nonsense. At least have some self-dignity before you posting something. Navalny is yet another victim of russian criminal regime that was tortured for a few years and then silently killed. Also, majority of russians don't give a single f about muslims, they treat them like a low working class, especially all those migrants from Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan etc. Look what Russia did in Syria, Afghanistan - do you really think they care about Palestine? They even hate their own neighbors aka Ukraine, Georgia and other post Soviet republics that keep resisting their imperial ideologies. 2 4 3
Luckitty Posted February 16 Posted February 16 9 minutes ago, Gottasadae said: Not a twitter account that hiding behind Disney picture character and spreading FSB propaganda, labelling ukrainians as nazis and promoting putin nonsense. At least have some self-dignity before you posting something. Navalny is yet another victim of russian criminal regime that was tortured for a few years and then silently killed. Also, majority of russians don't give a single f about muslims, they treat them like a low working class, especially all those migrants from Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan etc. Look what Russia did in Syria, Afghanistan - do you really think they care about Palestine? They even hate their own neighbors aka Ukraine, Georgia and other post Soviet republics that keep resisting their imperial ideologies. idc about russians or their politics, i hope all islamophobes die and i didn't even mention Palestine why did you even bring it up lol 1
bestfiction Posted February 16 Posted February 16 Him and Tucker running across Moscow acting amazed by its metro stations and cheap food look particularly sinister now 1 1
MP3 Posted February 16 Posted February 16 I'm very saddened by this What a sad life ending, can't imagine how her wife and kids must feel I really hoped he would have been release somehow with International help and make a coup d'état in Russia
Communion Posted February 17 Posted February 17 (edited) 7 hours ago, Gottasadae said: Navalny is yet another victim of russian criminal regime that was tortured for a few years and then silently killed It would be easier to 'contextualize' away that Navalny was a far-right white supremacist who himself was just as right-wing as Putin if those who felt the urge to contextualize away the kind of horrific views he represented and held weren't the first - to make a direct comparison - to suggest Julian Assange somehow deserves to be tortured by the UK government on the verge of dying in solitary confinement by ambiguously referencing now debunked claims of sexual assault to pivot away from the reality that he's a journalist being held prisoner for exposing American war crimes & corruption. Feels like one can make the argument that Putin killing is his political opposition is bad without whitewashing that his opposition holds similar far-right views to himself. Edited February 17 by Communion 1 2
Communion Posted February 17 Posted February 17 (edited) On 2/16/2024 at 3:42 PM, bestfiction said: Him and Tucker running across Moscow acting amazed by its metro stations and cheap food look particularly sinister now Comparing a far-right journalist to someone literally forced to live in Russia because his government is actively seeking to kill him makes these "OUR HERO NAVALNY" takes kind of mask off for what they actually are, fyi. Let alone that the pro-genocide National Endowment for Democracy VBNMW stooge you're linking to's only evidence that somehow Snowden deserves to be vilified is *checks notes* that he supported the Green Party (shocking he does not like the two parties who want him jailed for life for exposing illegal government spying on citizens) or claims about an article he mysteriously does not link to: Spoiler: Snowden did not - in fact - compare Biden to Hitler, but wrote how Biden's speech about how the January 6th insurrection was a threat to American democracy, while correct, ignored the reality of America contributing to toppling others' democracies via regime change or violated the freedoms of its citizens through things like the very NSA spying he exposed or the CIA killing private citizens. Edited February 19 by Communion 1
Stimulus Posted February 17 Posted February 17 17 hours ago, Communion said: It would be easier to 'contextualize' away that Navalny was a far-right white supremacist who himself was just as right-wing as Putin if those who felt the urge to contextualize away the kind of horrific views he represented and held weren't the first - to make a direct comparison - to suggest Julian Assange somehow deserves to be tortured by the UK government on the verge of dying in solitary confinement by ambiguously referencing now debunked claims of sexual assault to pivot away from the reality that he's a journalist being held prisoner for exposing American war crimes & corruption. Feels like one can make the argument that Putin killing is his political opposition is bad without whitewashing that his opposition holds similar far-right views to himself. Navalny's political positions were significantly more moderate than Putin's and Navalny gradually renounced his support for Russian imperialism over time. Navalny was not "just as right-wing as Putin" and it's weird that you're calling Navalny "far-right" vs. calling Putin "right-wing" when Putin is the one with more extreme positions spearheading Russian imperialism. Most importantly to ATRL, Navalny opposed Russia's invasion of Ukraine and supported the legalization of same-sex marriage. Navalny would have been an obvious improvement over Putin and it's reductive to claim that they are both the same just because Navalny isn't the ideal politician that you'd like to see. We're mourning Navalny not just because he had the courage to oppose Putin, but also because he represented the direction that Russia needs to move toward in order to do right by its citizens and the rest of the world. 2 1
Communion Posted February 17 Posted February 17 (edited) On 2/17/2024 at 3:22 PM, Stimulus said: Navalny was not "just as right-wing as Putin" Trying to find grace for a "reformed white supremacist" while at the same time suggesting a far-right journalist like Tucker Carlson and someone who exposed US government crimes like Edward Snowden are simply one in the same and thus comparable - again - gives away what is actually being attempted here, fyi. You cannot have grace for Navalny on the basis that anti-corruption work supersedes everything else yet not for Julian Assange or Edward Snowden. Edited February 19 by Communion 1
Stimulus Posted February 17 Posted February 17 1 minute ago, Communion said: Trying to find grace for a "reformed white supremacist" while at the same time suggesting a far-right journalist like Tucker Carlson and someone who exposed US government crimes like Edward Snowden are simply one in the same and thus comparable - again - gives away what is actually being attempted here, fyi. You cannot have grace for Nalvany on the basis that anti-corruption work supersedes everything else yet not for Julian Assange or Edward Snowden. I see Assange and Snowden as people who have made a positive change in the world, and I strongly condemn Tucker Carlson for his far-right commentary, so no, I don't see Snowden and Carlson as "simply one in the same". I don't know what led you to assume that I think Snowden and Carlson are the same, because I've never said anything like that. I also don't know why you're using Assange and Snowden to downplay the positive impact that Navalny had in Russia. There's nothing contradictory in seeing all three of these people as positive role models. 1
Communion Posted February 17 Posted February 17 (edited) On 2/17/2024 at 3:35 PM, Stimulus said: I don't see Snowden and Carlson as "simply one in the same". The person I was originally quoting had literally done what I described. If you're then confused why people have reservations about those who praise Navalny due to many of the people praising him also villainizing people like Assange and Snowden (Iike the user I quoted did), your issue is then with the pro-Navalny/anti-Assange+Snowden people, not people like myself pointing out this uncomfortable contradiction. I can make sense of the idea that working to resolve corruption is an important issue, but not this feeling only applying for some to Russian corruption and not American corruption. But I have to worry you're possibly engaging in bad faith, due to making some kind of insinuation with this: On 2/17/2024 at 3:22 PM, Stimulus said: calling Navalny "far-right" vs. calling Putin "right-wing" despite the sentence being "a far-right white supremacist who himself was just as right-wing as Putin" - which would be read as both figures being described are so right-wing that they're both far-right. Edited February 19 by Communion 1
Stimulus Posted February 17 Posted February 17 41 minutes ago, Communion said: "a far-right white supremacist who himself was just as right-wing as Putin" - which would be read as both figures being described are so right-wing that they're both far-right. That phrase by itself is a problem because you're going to a thread about Navalny's death and claiming that Navalny was "just as right-wing as Putin" when Navalny opposed the Russian invasion of Ukraine that Putin ordered. 1
Communion Posted February 17 Posted February 17 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Stimulus said: That phrase by itself is a problem because you're going to a thread about Navalny's death and claiming that Navalny was "just as right-wing as Putin" when Navalny opposed the Russian invasion of Ukraine that Putin ordered. The problematic aspect here is you openly saying Russia's invasion of Ukraine is the sole variable of Russian politics, which is exactly the whitewashing people are taking an issue with. Is someone a hero and someone who should lead Russia if they're anti-invading Ukraine but also a white supremacist who cals Muslims "cockroaches"? Edited February 17 by Communion 1
Stimulus Posted February 17 Posted February 17 3 minutes ago, Communion said: The problematic aspect here is you openly saying Russia's invasion of Ukraine is the sole variable of Russian politics, which is exactly the whitewashing people are taking an issue with. Is someone a hero and someone who should lead Russia if they're anti-invading Ukraine but also a white supremacist who cals Muslims "cockroaches"? I didn't say that Russia's invasion of Ukraine is the "sole variable of Russian politics" -- that's you arguing in bad faith. I already mentioned in my other post that Navalny supported the legalization of same-sex marriage, which is a huge improvement to Putin's persecution of LGBT people in Russia. Navalny's anti-corruption movement would have also moved the Russian government in a more acceptable direction had Navalny become president. Russia's invasion of Ukraine is obviously the most important issue in Russian politics right now due to its massive worldwide impact, and it's not whitewashing to prioritize this over other elements of Russian politics. Preventing the Russian invasion of Ukraine would have absolutely been a legitimate reason for Navalny leading Russia instead of Putin, despite Navalny not being your ideal politician. 1
Raptus Posted February 18 Posted February 18 He willingly came back to Russia...like? How dumb was that? 1
Raptus Posted February 18 Posted February 18 On 2/16/2024 at 1:41 PM, Blue Jeans said: *was killed Russia keeps delivering depressing news. This year just started and already the biggest opponent of P*tin was killed, and the most promising anti-war president candidate who had crowds of people signing for him unlike P*tin was dismissed "Anti-war"? Gurl, he had the same stance on ukrainian war Putin has He said "Crimea will remain part of Russia and will never become part of Ukraine again in the foreseeable future". 1
Gov Hooka Posted February 19 Posted February 19 I have to laugh at the trash users on the first page hailing this far right, racist, ethnonationalist POS as a hero… 1
Stimulus Posted February 19 Posted February 19 (edited) 5 hours ago, Raptus said: "Anti-war"? Gurl, he had the same stance on ukrainian war Putin has He said "Crimea will remain part of Russia and will never become part of Ukraine again in the foreseeable future". Nope, Navalny supported the return of Crimea to Ukraine after seeing the consequences of Russia's invasion of Ukraine in 2022. Alexei Navalny’s Big Shift on Crimea Is a Blow to Putin’s Imperial Designs The New Republic / Casey Michel / March 2, 2023 Quote Last week, in an encouraging development where Russia’s internal politics are concerned, Russian opposition leader Alexei Navalny unveiled a series of “theses” outlining what a post-Putin Russia should look like. In so doing, Navalny finally clarified his position on the one issue that has, for some time now, driven a wedge between him and Western allies, especially those in Ukraine: Russian imperialism—and, more specifically, the fate of Crimea. Over a series of Twitter posts, Navalny announced that Crimea should be returned to Ukraine, full stop. Navalny wrote that Ukraine’s borders are “similar to Russia’s—[they were] internationally recognized and defined in 1991.” All of the areas of Ukraine that the Kremlin has supposedly “annexed” are, by right and by law, still Ukrainian, including Crimea. The announcement is the conclusion of a years-long song and dance Navalny and his supporters have performed in relation to the peninsula’s future. For nearly a decade, Navalny’s stance on Crimea has been “ambiguous,” as The Moscow Times recently reported. And while Westerners feted Navalny for his ongoing bravery, Ukrainians were rightly infuriated by his relative coyness about the fate of the peninsula. (When an interviewer asked whether Navalny would, if elected president, return Crimea to Ukraine, Navalny infamously responded, “What, is Crimea a ham sandwich or something that you can take and give back? No, I don’t believe so.”) Now Navalny has seemingly put the issue to bed. And in so doing, he has finally begun to address the core issue propelling the Russian devastation of Ukraine and the militarized dystopia Putin’s Russia has become: rote imperialism, predicated on conspiratorial resentment, unabashed revanchism, and neocolonial aspirations. After years of trying to shunt the topic of Russian imperialism to the side, Russian liberals appear finally to be waking to the reality that Russian colonialism and Russian chauvinism stand at the core of the country’s collapse into totalitarianism. Indeed, Navalny further addressed the topic of Russian imperialism within his new series of “theses.” “Does Russia need new territories?” the jailed opposition figure asked. “Russia is a vast country with a shrinking population and dying-out rural areas. Imperialism and the urge to seize territory is the most harmful and destructive path.” This irredentism, as Russian liberals have begun to see, has resulted in unmitigated catastrophe. “Once again, the Russian government is destroying our future with its own hands just in order to make our country look bigger on the map,” Navalny continued. “But Russia is big enough as it is. Our objective should be preserving our people and developing what we have in abundance.” I'm giving the side-eye to any ATRL user who criticizes Navalny while remaining completely silent on Putin. There's no legitimate justification for this, since Navalny was an improvement over Putin in just about every single metric. Edited February 19 by Stimulus 1
Communion Posted February 19 Posted February 19 (edited) On 2/17/2024 at 4:52 PM, Stimulus said: I didn't say that Russia's invasion of Ukraine is the "sole variable of Russian politics" -- that's you arguing in bad faith. I already mentioned in my other post that Navalny supported the legalization of same-sex marriage, which is a huge improvement to Putin's persecution of LGBT people in Russia. Navalny's anti-corruption movement would have also moved the Russian government in a more acceptable direction had Navalny become president. Russia's invasion of Ukraine is obviously the most important issue in Russian politics right now due to its massive worldwide impact, and it's not whitewashing to prioritize this over other elements of Russian politics. Preventing the Russian invasion of Ukraine would have absolutely been a legitimate reason for Navalny leading Russia instead of Putin, despite Navalny not being your ideal politician. Again, you're not articulating any *actual* issue anyone - let alone @Luckitty - has done in calling Navalny a white supremacist and how they're wrong. Even now, you can't just own the stance of "well *I* think anti-corruption and pro-democracy movements are of the most immediate concern and thus that's how *I* reconcile with Navalny's white supremacist views". That, I think, would be fair. A stance I would agree with and often do for causes like wrt to Palestine, for example. People in tough situations - separate from powerful governments like America cynically throwing their weight behind right-wing opposition to Putin instead of left-wing opposition - have to make tough decisions that are not going to be perfect. If Russian leftists found Navalny key as a part of their coalition to combat Putin, I'd have hesitations as an American leftists judging them. But you're not doing that. You're trying to deny the sheer reality at hand and claim a far-right figure was somehow more moderate than his decades of views let on. Even now, you can't pinpoint to how Navalny was not a racist. You just point to how he was anti-corruption and his party was 'fine with' gay marriage to imply he was a liberal. So again, I'm not sure what else you'd want from users like @Luckitty, especially when the vast majority of the Western media and voices of power within the West display this kind of double standard that drives the resentment to people (like powerful US figures - Bernie Sanders of all people) honoring a white supremacist. I think you're both right! That you have reason to prioritize stopping Putin (if you are Russian), but that the other user is right too for not being moved by someone who was objectively a white supremacist, especially if their reaction is driven by resentment towards how the illiberal views of Hamas disqualify much Palestinian struggle to Westerners yet white supremacy doesn't. Edited February 19 by Communion 2
Stimulus Posted February 19 Posted February 19 8 minutes ago, Communion said: Again, you're not articulating any *actual* issue anyone - let alone @Luckitty - has done in calling Navalny a white supremacist and how they're wrong. Even now, you can't just own the stance of "well *I* think anti-corruption and pro-democracy movements are of the most immediate concern and thus that's how *I* reconcile with Navalny's white supremacist views". That, I think, would be fair. A stance I would agree with and often do for causes like wrt to Palestine, for example. People in tough situations - separate from powerful governments like America cynically throwing their weight behind right-wing opposition to Putin instead of left-wing opposition - have to make tough decisions that are not going to be perfect. If Russian leftists found Navalny key as a part of their coalition to combat Putin, I'd have hesitations as an American leftists judging them. But you're not doing that. You're trying to deny the sheer reality at hand and claim a far-right figure was somehow more moderate than his decades of views let on. Even now, you can't pinpoint to how Navalny was not a racist. You just point to how he was anti-corruption and his party was 'fine with' gay marriage to imply he was a liberal. So again, I'm not sure what else you'd want from users like @Luckitty, especially when the vast majority of the Western media and voices of power within the West display this kind of double standard that drives the resentment to people (like powerful US figures - Bernie Sanders of all people) honoring a white supremacist. I think you're both right! That you have reason to prioritize stopping Putin (if you are Russian), but that the other user is right too for not being moved by someone who was objectively a white supremacist, especially if their reaction is driven by resentment towards how the illiberal views of Hamas disqualify much Palestinian struggle to Westerners yet white supremacy doesn't. The only arguments I have made about here about Navalny's political alignment are that Navalny is more moderate than Putin, and that Navalny's political positions have become more liberal over time. I don't think it's controversial to say that Navalny was less extreme than Putin and that he would have been an improvement over Putin. The deaths and disruption caused by Putin's invasion of Ukraine are not something that I can simply ignore, and that's the main reason I strongly oppose any claim of Navalny being described as Putin's equal. Of course I would prefer that Navalny never made his Islamophobic video in 2007 and that he apologized for his previous ultranationalist positions instead of "adopting new positions—without ever explicitly denouncing old ones". But I don't get to play god and choose all of the decisions that Navalny made in his lifetime. I can only look at what he's done and it's clear to me that his overall impact on Russian politics was positive. Navalny's Islamophobic video from 2007 is bad, but Putin's invasion of a country with over 1 million Muslim residents is an atrocity on a completely different magnitude, and Navalny opposed the invasion at an extreme personal cost. Since you mentioned the Russian left-wing opposition to Putin, let me make a proposal. Instead of criticizing Navalny while saying nothing about Putin, which would have the combined effect of condoning the status quo while opposing incremental progress in Russia, it would be good to see leftists also promote other Russian opposition figures that they find more agreeable at the same time. Navalny's being celebrated here not because he ventured into ultranationalism, but because he was the most prominent person to oppose Putin in recent years. Navalny's death leaves a desperate need for more Russian opposition figures to take his role and people from the left wing can certainly do that.
Luckitty Posted February 19 Posted February 19 Supporting a guy who referred to Muslims as "cockroaches" and promised to genocide them is on brand for ATRLers 1 1
s-60staliniec Posted February 19 Posted February 19 Plese stop praising this dipshit he was a literal nazi racist and islamophobe he wanted to exterminate islamic minority refered to them as parasites there is a vidoe when he calls them cockroaches and proseds to pretend to shot the cockroaches, the only thing he disliked about putins dictatorship was the fact that he was not the dictator, yet your al eating up the neoliberral propaganda you allowe the media to fearmonger you smh 1
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