base talk Why did Midnights win AOTY but Lemonade, SOS, Renaissance snubbed?

[FightDragonsWithMe]

I think the Grammys should've given her Song and Record as she's overdue for both those awards instead of giving her a 4th AOTY. Beyoncé, Janelle and black women in general do deserve this award but I'm happy Taylor's the one breaking barriers down in that category for women. 

[DR0GO]

3 hours ago, Selegend said:

well to be completely honest based on my opinion of course i think renaissance is too risky for the grammys commite and SOS is not that album people pretend it is

lemonade on the other hand did deserve it. 

 

just my opinion tho. 

 

What do you mean by SOS is not the album people pretend it is?

[Achilles.]

I hate saying this because I love Beyoncé and would have given her AOTY for at least two, if not all three, of her most recent nominations but… she’s tried to win it the wrong way. Winners in this category basically fall into two groups: “blockbusters from superstars” and “acclaimed works from smaller artists.” Beyoncé, obviously, is a superstar. But she tries to win by making the greatest album she can, rather than by making the most successful album she can. An artist of her celebrity status will never win for acclaim alone. Even folklore, which is arguably the A-lister AOTY winner that won moreso for its acclaim than its success, spent 8 weeks atop the Billboard 200 and was top 5 on the year end charts. Beyoncé and Lemonade were both top 5 on the year end chart as well, but lost for different reasons: Lemonade because there was an even bigger blockbuster from another superstar (same reason SOS lost) and Beyoncé because that year the academy went for a winner from the other category of winners (and, notably, Beyoncé missed Song/Record noms and didn’t even beat Pharrell in the genre category, so self-titled was clearly not as well-received as any of us like to think it was). Her best chance at winning would probably be something 24K Magic-esque; a non-provocative, respectable consensus pick with multiple smashes. 
 

As for Midnights, it won for being a blockbuster that set all sorts of records across every chart and format imaginable by a superstar at basically the biggest peak any superstar has ever had. It was overshadowed by the Eras era, but its stats on the charts place it in extremely rare company in terms of success. It’s hardly a surprise that she won for it. Would they have snubbed MJ for Thriller or Adele for 21? Frankly, with the year she had it’s more surprising that she didn’t fully sweep the big three awards. 

[Avenger]

Awards have never been about quality if Taylor is the topic here ask anyone who has heard both 1989 and To P a butterfly and ask which one is better? And somehow 1989 won, while Kendrick wrote for the culture he was paid dust. 
 

you guys need to stop being bitter, they are just plain awards they don’t dictate anything. 

[C-Amber]

36 minutes ago, swissman said:

You think you're proving something but you're essentially quoting ad-libs or breakdowns in songs, and either way this is ignorant considering 100 people didn't write on the album let alone on a single song and the use of repetition in ballroom is a well established musical form so discounting Beyoncé using it in an album celebrating that form would be like to spell out the scatting in a jazz album and then saying "lyrics like this deserve to win?".

 

 

Her last album had around 107-108 names credited as writers to write 16 songs!!!! Not even adding the producers list to them. There is absolutely nobody who truly an artist with ability to make music will need this amount of writers, here is the list of Album of the Year winners on the past years and the number of writers that wrote it

 

2024. Midnight (8 writers - 12 songs)

2023: Harry's House (7 writers - 13 songs)

2022: We Are (15 writers - 13 songs)

2021: Folklore (5 writers - 16 songs)

2020: WWAFAWDWO (3 writers - 14 songs)

2019: Golden Hour (12 writers - 13 songs)

2018: 24K Magic (15 writers - 9 songs)

2017: 25 (12 writers - 11 songs)

 

And the rest years are practically the same, and all albums have great reviews. But yall want to give it all to one artist who literally have +100 names writing the album because the album have a theme? A joke writing itself. Nobody will give the award to an album made by +100 writers, and the music itself isn't even that special.

[Selegend]

25 minutes ago, DR0GO said:

What do you mean by SOS is not the album people pretend it is?

i think it's not on bey albums level.

i like midnights better than SOS and i wouldn't say the same for the 2 bey listed albums on the title of the thread. i would like SZA to win but more for the representation than for the music itself 

but again, it's just my opinion

 

completing my post: self-titled also deserved together with lemeonade, self-titled changed the game. surprise releases, friday releases

Edited February 5 by Selegend

[45seconds]

4 hours ago, KatyPrismSpirit said:

Midnights has two writers per track.

Midnights is almost 7x platinum in one calander year

Midnights sold 1.6M units in one week

Midnights has a 88 on metacritic

Record breaking album 

like…

Midnights has two writers per track.

 

What does writers per track have to do with anything? It could take 100 people to write a song. If it’s the better song then it’s the better song. 
 

Midnights is almost 7x platinum in one calendar year.

 

It’s not a popularity contest. Which is why people say she lost against Beck. Or does that shift based on who it is? 
 

Midnights sold 1.6M units in one week

What does this matter? 
 

Midnights has a 88 on metacritic

Lemonade and Renny are both more critically acclaimed. 
 

Record breaking album 

 

[swissman]

32 minutes ago, C-Amber said:

Her last album had around 107-108 names credited as writers to write 16 songs!!!! Not even adding the producers list to them. There is absolutely nobody who truly an artist with ability to make music will need this amount of writers, here is the list of Album of the Year winners on the past years and the number of writers that wrote it

 

2024. Midnight (8 writers - 12 songs)

2023: Harry's House (7 writers - 13 songs)

2022: We Are (15 writers - 13 songs)

2021: Folklore (5 writers - 16 songs)

2020: WWAFAWDWO (3 writers - 14 songs)

2019: Golden Hour (12 writers - 13 songs)

2018: 24K Magic (15 writers - 9 songs)

2017: 25 (12 writers - 11 songs)

 

And the rest years are practically the same, and all albums have great reviews. But yall want to give it all to one artist who literally have +100 names writing the album because the album have a theme? A joke writing itself. Nobody will give the award to an album made by +100 writers, and the music itself isn't even that special.

You are still wrong though. No song had 100 writers. And yet you've been telling this lie multiple times throughout this thread.

 

As for the album in total, actually there are 104 writers but the great majority are from samples. I was indeed wrong in stating that the entire album didn't have 100, but many of the writers-from-samples actually didn't write a single thing used in the album whatsoever which puts the actual factual writers at below 100.

 

For example, NONE of the writers credited because of the Show Me Love interpolation used in BREAK MY SOUL had anything to do with RENAISSANCE. Beyoncé interpolated a synth used in a Show Me Love remix, and as rules go, remixers do not receive songwriting credits, thus all credit goes back to the original writers, despite the fact that none of them wrote the actual synth that was used, and not one element they created in Show Me Love appears in BREAK MY SOUL.

 

In contrast, the biggest hit from Harry's House interpolates an existing hit song's synth yet included NO credit whatsoever in the writing, and thus the song has only 2 songwriters. If Beyoncé had recorded it, she would have credited those additional three writers from the work she interpolated. But I don't see any backlash whatsoever about this uncredited use of another song's work.

CUFF IT, as another type of example, adds an entire writing credit for just 1 second of the song. To look at the list of writers and then decide "it's made by 100+ writers therefore its not worthy of AOTY" is very odd considering HOW the samples are used, why, and what they actually sound like within the album. Again, the words "ooh la la la" were used and thus Teena Marie has a writing credit on the album. Is this really some terrible artistic affront? Could they really, if they had wanted to, not have written ANYTHING else in place of that if they wanted to have a tight amount of writers?

All in all, I don't think it matters how many writers made the album. It doesn't make it EASIER to have a better album with more writers, in fact that just makes it harder to come up with a cohesive final product. You can't have 100 cooks in the kitchen and come out with a beautiful, artful, fully formed and quality-consistent meal without having one masterful chef in charge.

 

 

Edited February 5 by swissman

[dawnettakins]

White mediocrity.

 

[Finkypop]

1 hour ago, Blue Monday said:

So she's mostly to blame for it sounding like trash and did not deserve AOTY exactly thank you! 

 

OT: Talent always wins. The way she can potentially get her FIFTH one next year 

[Kalmanta]

17 minutes ago, C-Amber said:

And the rest years are practically the same, and all albums have great reviews. But yall want to give it all to one artist who literally have +100 names writing the album because the album have a theme? A joke writing itself. Nobody will give the award to an album made by +100 writers, and the music itself isn't even that special.

If highlighting the entire history of dance-music and shining the light on marginalised artists by sampling/incorporating their voices to craft a collaborative body of work ultimately means you get to lose AOTY, so be it. 

[Jpkun]

I actually think Midnights is a worthy winner for album of the year, but not because of artistic excellence that solely live in the tracks (which is a completely valid way to award AOTY as well). I do think she does deserve based on her merits as an artist in terms of what she did with the album. She produced a very good pure pop record, in a time when most of her peers are not doing so anymore. She used this idea of "midnights throughout her life" as a way to think about and start the eras tour. She turned a best hits list, into something to celebrate. She used the idea of midnight, a time, to talk about not the time of the day, but different times of her life. Part of artistic excellence is the ability to capitalize and change the music industry in the ways that she has been able to do. 

As much as the eras tour exists and includes so much more outside of midnights. I think that Midnights serves as the vital thread that is able to link the many parts of her current lore together into the idea of an Eras Tour. The nights she thought about as she produces the re-recordings presents as the album. She made fans think about which night or which era the feelings in these songs represent, which then presents as the opportunity to put together the tour. It was the perfectly conceptualized album and answer to something horrible that she experienced. 

[Archetype]

A main field Grammy is for music and artists that define the year, connect with the most people, have some large impact, etc.  Taylor Swift always exceeds this criteria without really trying, it’s just who she is and ya’ll need to learn to cope.  
 

Beyoncé is amazing but no one forced her to make more experimental, niche albums that a majority of people do not connect with.  Lana is in the same boat, amazing music but too niche for main field wins.  SZA probably has the second highest amount of votes, but the album is more of a playlist than album, and it doesn’t have the same level of impact as Taylor.  
 

Most uber successful and talented artists never win a main field Grammy or only get to do it once.  

[C-Amber]

1 hour ago, swissman said:

You are still wrong though. No song had 100 writers. And yet you've been telling this lie multiple times throughout this thread.

 

As for the album in total, actually there are 104 writers but the great majority are from samples. I was indeed wrong in stating that the entire album didn't have 100, but many of the writers-from-samples actually didn't write a single thing used in the album whatsoever which puts the actual factual writers at below 100.

 

For example, NONE of the writers credited because of the Show Me Love interpolation used in BREAK MY SOUL had anything to do with RENAISSANCE. Beyoncé interpolated a synth used in a Show Me Love remix, and as rules go, remixers do not receive songwriting credits, thus all credit goes back to the original writers, despite the fact that none of them wrote the actual synth that was used, and not one element they created in Show Me Love appears in BREAK MY SOUL.

 

In contrast, the biggest hit from Harry's House interpolates an existing hit song's synth yet included NO credit whatsoever in the writing, and thus the song has only 2 songwriters. If Beyoncé had recorded it, she would have credited those additional three writers from the work she interpolated. But I don't see any backlash whatsoever about this uncredited use of another song's work.

CUFF IT, as another type of example, adds an entire writing credit for just 1 second of the song. To look at the list of writers and then decide "it's made by 100+ writers therefore its not worthy of AOTY" is very odd considering HOW the samples are used, why, and what they actually sound like within the album. Again, the words "ooh la la la" were used and thus Teena Marie has a writing credit on the album. Is this really some terrible artistic affront? Could they really, if they had wanted to, not have written ANYTHING else in place of that if they wanted to have a tight amount of writers?

All in all, I don't think it matters how many writers made the album. It doesn't make it EASIER to have a better album with more writers, in fact that just makes it harder to come up with a cohesive final product. You can't have 100 cooks in the kitchen and come out with a beautiful, artful, fully formed and quality-consistent meal without having one masterful chef in charge.

 

 

"actually there are 104 writers"

"I was indeed wrong in stating that the entire album didn't have 100"

 

Here you have it. And no nobody does 100 cooks to create a meal, that's just absurd. There is not a single album that won album of the Year had 50-100  writers, not one, but yall want her to win it with +100 writers just because of her skin color. The funny thing she's already the most awarded person in grammy history, but yall want her to win it ALL, even if she win it all yall still will find something to complain about and demand some special award.

 

Top 5 most awarded women, 3 of them are black women

Top 5 most awarded individuals, 2 of them are black

Most awarded person, black women

Most awarded producer, black man

Most honored albums are by people of colors, Santana, MJ, and Ray Charles

Most grammy won in a night, two people of colors, Santana and MJ

 

And more.

Anyone reading yall complaints will think black people had nothing in grammy history. Literally the most nominated 2 artist in Grammy history and Beyonce and Jay Z looool but hey its not enough yall need more, they will probably give her next year some special award (special achievements or legend award, they might even invent new one) but yall will still be mad.

 

 

+Also I never said +100 writing a song, I said +100 wrote an ALBUM, so YOU stop lying about what I say.

Edited February 5 by C-Amber

[madollaqueen]

Because she and her team bought the most seats for votes from old white men.

The grammys have turned into a joke long time ago already

Edited February 5 by madollaqueen

[constantinople]

5 hours ago, Zefierce said:

Because Midnights didn’t have 100 people working on each song and was simply better than SOS. Seethe!

Celine's Falling Into You had 100 people working on each song, the production was lame and still won AOTY. That's a dumb take.

[hawx23]

It’s pretty simple. AOTY has to be able to capture as large a group of the academy as possible. 
 

Renaissance (especially), SOS, Lemonade are too specific/niche in terms of sound. (Eg your 75 year old white Joe music producer buyer is not gonna listen to R&B or vogue house (unfortunately)). 

[Trash]

5 hours ago, CaptainMusic said:

Like 90% of Beyoncé’s Grammys are in the predominately black categories. 
 

If you can’t see how white privilege is the reason why Taylor has 4 AOTY’s which is more than every black woman in history combined then you’re either a racist or an ignorant dumbass. 

It’s the latter from what I’ve read, but they could surprise us and also be the former…

[swissman]

1 hour ago, C-Amber said:

"actually there are 104 writers"

"I was indeed wrong in stating that the entire album didn't have 100"

 

Here you have it. And no nobody does 100 cooks to create a meal, that's just absurd. There is not a single album that won album of the Year had 50-100  writers, not one, but yall want her to win it with +100 writers just because of her skin color. The funny thing she's already the most awarded person in grammy history, but yall want her to win it ALL, even if she win it all yall still will find something to complain about and demand some special award.

 

Top 5 most awarded women, 3 of them are black women

Top 5 most awarded individuals, 2 of them are black

Most awarded person, black women

Most awarded producer, black man

Most honored albums are by people of colors, Santana, MJ, and Ray Charles

Most grammy won in a night, two people of colors, Santana and MJ

 

And more.

Anyone reading yall complaints will think black people had nothing in grammy history. Literally the most nominated 2 artist in Grammy history and Beyonce and Jay Z looool but hey its not enough yall need more, they will probably give her next year some special award (special achievements or legend award, they might even invent new one) but yall will still be mad.

 

 

+Also I never said +100 writing a song, I said +100 wrote an ALBUM, so YOU stop lying about what I say.

We don't want her to win because of her skin colour, we don't want her skin colour to be part of the factor that keeps her from winning, and considering no Black woman has won in the last 26 years...is it not possible that there's a bias against Black women in that category? Taylor Swift in 15 years alone has won AOTY more times than all Black women have in the entire history of the Grammy. Do you realize if a Black woman doesn't win AOTY in the next 8 years, there will have been as much time as it TOOK for a Black woman to finally win AOTY, as there will be since the last Black woman won?

 

I do agree that there is also bias in terms of people thinking smaller writing lists = better album. But you've literally said it yourself. Nobody uses 100 cooks to create a meal. You called it "absurd". Why? Because no one would expect that meal to turn out well. It would feel unnecessary to use as much. If there were 100, would it be because the head chef cannot cook? And why would they hire 99 others instead of just 5 really great ones? So why is it seen as something "easy" or "unartistic" to use 100 cooks to create an album? If anything this is more of a challenge and the result more of a gem for the sheer scope that ha been delivered successfully. There is a bias in itself about writing-lists and one that is not rooted in racism per se (though the topic of sampling may verge toward it) but elitism and rockist attitudes.

 

No one is saying Black people have never significant amounts of Grammys or haven't accomplished many things at the awards. But the fact that they are generally awarded in genre-specific categories says a lot. It speaks to a type of segregation almost, wherein competing against each other, certain genius artists may rack up a lot of awards, but most times they are against their white peers, they face big losses even when expected to win. Obviously not everyone can win, but the lack of Black women especially speaks to how both racism and misgoyny come together to undermine a lot of superstar Black talents in main categories and views them perhaps as a different kind of artist. It hasn't even been so long since the 1980s when the American Music Awards had categories like "Favorite Black Artist" and "Favorite Black Album".

 

As for you saying 100 people wrong a song, I may have rounded up after seeing other people stating exactly that but you did say (and this is a quote) "...Lyrics like this who needed 100 people to work on them deserves to win?" which to me implies you are saying the lyrics needed 100 people, meaning it was the song you were talking about. I can see now how I might have confused it, but either way 100 people were not needed to write those lyrics you specifically quoted, as I mentioned they were breakdowns or adlibs not even verse or chorus lyrics, which is why your assertion that 100 people were needed to write them felt off.

 

 

Edited February 5 by swissman

[Trash]

The scammy’s must be afraid of her fans pr something

[C-Amber]

12 minutes ago, swissman said:

We don't want her to win because of her skin colour, we don't want her skin colour to be part of the factor that keeps her from winning, and considering no Black woman has won in the last 26 years...is it not possible that there's a bias against Black women in that category? Taylor Swift in 15 years alone has won AOTY more times than all Black women have in the entire history of the Grammy. Do you realize if a Black woman doesn't win AOTY in the next 8 years, there will have been as much time as it TOOK for a Black woman to finally win AOTY, as there will be since the last Black woman won?

 

I do agree that there is also bias in terms of people thinking smaller writing lists = better album. But you've literally said it yourself. Nobody uses 100 cooks to create a meal. You called it "absurd". Why? Because no one would expect that meal to turn out well. It would feel unnecessary to use as much. If there were 100, would it be because the head chef cannot cook? And why would they hire 99 others instead of just 5 really great ones? So why is it seen as something "easy" or "unartistic" to use 100 cooks to create an album? If anything this is more of a challenge and the result more of a gem for the sheer scope that ha been delivered successfully. There is a bias in itself about writing-lists and one that is not rooted in racism per se (though the topic of sampling may verge toward it) but elitism and rockist attitudes.

 

No one is saying Black people have never significant amounts of Grammys or haven't accomplished many things at the awards. But the fact that they are generally awarded in genre-specific categories says a lot. It speaks to a type of segregation almost, wherein competing against each other, certain genius artists may rack up a lot of awards, but most times they are against their white peers, they face big losses even when expected to win. Obviously not everyone can win, but the lack of Black women especially speaks to how both racism and misgoyny come together to undermine a lot of superstar Black talents in main categories and views them perhaps as a different kind of artist. It hasn't even been so long since the 1980s when the American Music Awards had categories like "Favorite Black Artist" and "Favorite Black Album".

 

As for you saying 100 people wrong a song, I may have rounded up after seeing other people stating exactly that but you did say (and this is a quote) "...Lyrics like this who needed 100 people to work on them deserves to win?" which to me implies you are saying the lyrics needed 100 people, meaning it was the song you were talking about. I can see now how I might have confused it, but either way 100 people were not needed to write those lyrics you specifically quoted, as I mentioned they were breakdowns or adlibs not even verse or chorus lyrics, which is why your assertion that 100 people were needed to write them felt off.

 

 

 

And you are still going in circles, when it's simple. Not in the history of grammy an album with +50 writers won album of the Year, not once, it's obviously one of the main things voters take into account, she will never win this award as long as she keeps using +100 names to write one album filled with samples. No voter will see the nomination list and see one album credits is over a page long while others will only have few lines and go to vote on the one with hundreds of names, it's that simple, so she might just go back to her previous ways (pre-2013) when she worked with less people (30-40 writers) to make an album, or she can't make an album on her own with just 10 people? As for Song and Record of the Year, every time she dropped a song there are always bigger and better singles that year who deserves it. If this was a color issue then she and her husband won't be having +50 awards including special award, if they are that racist there is no way in earth they'll let them have that amount, but every year they be giving them awards and let them host special parties for the Grammy, and they'll have the audacity to call the Grammy while accepting special awards!!

[ohwow]

the way black artists consistently release the best music every decade yet white mediocrity gets rewarded repeatedly lmao... but obvi it has to do with the grammy voters mostly being white (and racist, whether willing to admit it or not)

[Armani?]

6 hours ago, KatyPrismSpirit said:

Yes, but they were talking about the main category and why Beyonce lost AOTY four times. not the weeknd

Yes, the main category AOTY where also one Hip Hop album has won in the entire millennium/century so far.

 

Truly a similar reflection of American culture and what people listen to today. I guess Hip Hop artists just can't make a excellent album worthy of the title & also Beyonce. This is very realistic.

 

If only the Black privilege kicked in

[swissman]

50 minutes ago, C-Amber said:

 

And you are still going in circles, when it's simple. Not in the history of grammy an album with +50 writers won album of the Year, not once, it's obviously one of the main things voters take into account, she will never win this award as long as she keeps using +100 names to write one album filled with samples. No voter will see the nomination list and see one album credits is over a page long while others will only have few lines and go to vote on the one with hundreds of names, it's that simple, so she might just go back to her previous ways (pre-2013) when she worked with less people (30-40 writers) to make an album, or she can't make an album on her own with just 10 people? As for Song and Record of the Year, every time she dropped a song there are always bigger and better singles that year who deserves it. If this was a color issue then she and her husband won't be having +50 awards including special award, if they are that racist there is no way in earth they'll let them have that amount, but every year they be giving them awards and let them host special parties for the Grammy, and they'll have the audacity to call the Grammy while accepting special awards!!

I'm sure there are plenty of people who voted for Beyoncé despite her album's credits unless you think that she received zero votes each time she's been nominated.

 

You need to realize that institutions and systems can be racist or informed by racism OR have a trickle down of racial bias without actually being so overtly racist as to prevent Black people from winning awards. Saying that the Grammys let a Black person host a party, or win a record-setting amount of non-televised awards, or receive a brand new, non-music-based award is not exactly proof that the system does not suffer from racism. Saying something like "they'll have the audacity to call [out] the Grammy while accepting special awards" kind of sounds racist in itself, like the trop that Black people should not speak up for themselves or each other and instead just be happy with whatever they get. We wouldn't have any change, we probably wouldn't have this special award, if not for the fact that people in Hip-Hop have (since the 1990s) continually spoken up, boycotted, or used their speeches to draw attention to the inequality.

 

I appreciate the fact that Beyoncé does not simply playing a game of respectability to win AOTY. She's not using darling writers/producers and getting them to collaborate with her on the majority of her tracks, she's casting a wide net for her collaborators, working with artists old and new, taking risks in her sound and yes, in the amount of people she works. It's probably not news to her that the Grammys has a bias for concise writer's lists, and yet she still does it? Why? Because changing herself or how she wants to work just to please people a wide body of voters who were already discounting her already is not what an artist does.

 

 

Edited February 5 by swissman

[swissman]

4 hours ago, ohwow said:

the way black artists consistently release the best music every decade yet white mediocrity gets rewarded repeatedly lmao... but obvi it has to do with the grammy voters mostly being white (and racist, whether willing to admit it or not)

Very much this.

 

There doesn't seem to be a single popular American genre that has not been either pioneered, developed or majorly impacted by Black musicians, and yet when it comes to awarding the top honours, Black artists are routinely sidelined.

 

I don't know why people are fighting this though, when we have math on our side.

 

In 66 ceremonies there's been a Black AOTY winner 13 times. That's ~19% of all AOTY winners. Do Black people make up 19% of the music industry? Have they made 19% of the innovations, and great works? Of course not.

 

 

Edited February 6 by swissman