Communion Posted January 27 Author Posted January 27 (edited) 5 minutes ago, BeenTheShit said: I'm voting in my best interest. And yet you seem incapable of understanding that non-voters exist because they have come to the conclusion that no options presented in front of them are in their best interest, and this is remedied not by scolding and finger-waging but optimizing your candidate to better speak to the demands of the coalition you think is required to win. It didn't take long to go from "He would be the most progressive president since FDR if he won" in 2020 to "Your options are two white genocide supporters - pick!" now. No wonder the DNC is going bankrupt. Edited January 27 by Communion 1 1 2
byzantium Posted January 27 Posted January 27 8 minutes ago, Miss Show Business said: You can support the Palestinian people without being anti semitic, without calling for the eradication of Israel, etc. If "zionists" cause you to lose your job, you probably deserve to be jobless Considering that someone posted just 5 posts above this that not supporting Biden is equivalent of supporting Hamas, I would say this thinking is naive at best.
BeenTheShit Posted January 27 Posted January 27 1 minute ago, byzantium said: The difference is I am willing to put my rights at risk for the possibility that other’s rights might be protected. You are willing to put other’s rights at risk for the possibility that yours might backslide slower. I’m not going to play a game to validating my positions to someone who is trying to get people to support genocide. what have you personally done to ensure Biden wins? How much have you donated to the campaign? What organizations are you a part of? How many doors have you knocked on? But that's just it, no matter what you do with your vote, you're not going to help or protect Palestine in any sense. You're simply just showboating and risking your rights to accomplish nothing. I have done NOTHING. I have donated ZERO to Biden's campaign, joined ZERO Biden-affiliated organizations, and knocked on ZERO doors in support of him. 2
BeenTheShit Posted January 27 Posted January 27 10 minutes ago, Communion said: And yet you seem incapable of understanding that non-voters exist because they have come to the conclusion that no options presented in front of them are in their best interest, and this is remedied not by scolding and finger-waging but optimizing your candidate to better speak to the demands of the coalition you think is required to win. It didn't take long to go from "He would be the most progressive president since FDR if he won" in 2020 to "Your options are two white genocide supporters - pick!" now. No wonder the DNC is going bankrupt. That's the beauty of America. You have your convictions and feel it is in your best interest to base your vote on Palestine. I do not. 1
rihannafan Posted January 27 Posted January 27 4 minutes ago, BeenTheShit said: That's the beauty of America. You have your convictions and feel it is in your best interest to base your vote on Palestine. I do not. You don't think you're funding the war on palestine? Stupid.
BeenTheShit Posted January 27 Posted January 27 (edited) 3 minutes ago, rihannafan said: You don't think you're funding the war on palestine? Stupid. So are you. Anyone who pays their taxes in America is sweetheart. It still doesn't mean I support it. Like I said, stop paying your taxes if you truly want to protest and help Palestine. Edited January 27 by BeenTheShit
byzantium Posted January 27 Posted January 27 6 minutes ago, BeenTheShit said: But that's just it, no matter what you do with your vote, you're not going to help or protect Palestine in any sense. You're simply just showboating and risking your rights to accomplish nothing. I have done NOTHING. I have donated ZERO to Biden's campaign, joined ZERO Biden-affiliated organizations, and knocked on ZERO doors in support of him. You see genocide as an inevitable here. And I know for a fact that policies can change with the political winds. You are not going to get me or others to stop protesting this administration’s abhorrent policy just because it is not politically expedient for you personally. If you are not willing to protect the rights of others, then why would you expect others to look out for your own rights. Maybe if you were so concerned about Biden’s prospects, you would spend more of your time and finances helping the Biden campaign rather than waging debates on your keyboard.
rihannafan Posted January 27 Posted January 27 1 minute ago, BeenTheShit said: So are you. Anyone who pays their taxes in America is sweetheart. It still doesn't mean I support it. Obviously. But to say that it is separate from American elections is just not realistic.
choerry Posted January 27 Posted January 27 3 minutes ago, byzantium said: The difference is I am willing to put my rights at risk for the possibility that other’s rights might be protected. You are willing to put other’s rights at risk for the possibility that yours might backslide slower. I’m not going to play a game to validating my positions to someone who is trying to get people to support genocide. what have you personally done to ensure Biden wins? How much have you donated to the campaign? What organizations are you a part of? How many doors have you knocked on? I don’t understand the logic behind putting one’s own rights at risk for other’s rights to be protected, especially when the alternative has spoken out about not wanting any “Hamas sympathizers” in the country and has doubled down on his support for Israel. His first term in office, let’s not forget that Trump instituted a “Muslim ban,” moved the US consulate for Israel to Jerusalem, and handed Israel the Golan Heights. At least in the Democratic Party we have a block of congress members with “the squad” as well as aides and advisors in his administration speaking out about what’s going on and placing pressure on him to call for a ceasefire. Trump wouldn’t have any of that. Trump has spoken out about how he would be a dictator if reelected, he would place migrants in camps, and would go after his opposition using the FBI. If we take him at his word, what good could we do for the Palestinians without being branded as a “Hamas sympathizer” and being investigated by the FBI? To me, it feels like cutting off your nose to spite your face. Again, both options are bad for Palestinians (tragically,) but I do think one option is marginally better and the other doubles down on the kind of harmful rhetoric that contributes to the mass murder of Gazans. Lastly. I don’t think it’s a bad thing to want to protect/jeep your rights. One only needs to look at what women have gone through since Roe was overturned. Sorry, this was so long I just respectfully wanted to make my case 🙏🏼.. 1 1
BeenTheShit Posted January 27 Posted January 27 1 minute ago, byzantium said: You see genocide as an inevitable here. And I know for a fact that policies can change with the political winds. You are not going to get me or others to stop protesting this administration’s abhorrent policy just because it is not politically expedient for you personally. If you are not willing to protect the rights of others, then why would you expect others to look out for your own rights. Maybe if you were so concerned about Biden’s prospects, you would spend more of your time and finances helping the Biden campaign rather than waging debates on your keyboard. Do you honestly think Palestine cares about us, or our rights here America? I never said I wasn't going to help Biden's election campaign. I was just showing you that I've done nothing so far and that's my choice. Plus, I never claimed that Biden is perfect or the poster child of morality, just that he's the better option over Trump. 1
BeenTheShit Posted January 27 Posted January 27 (edited) 10 minutes ago, rihannafan said: Obviously. But to say that it is separate from American elections is just not realistic. I never said it's separate from elections, just that it's an issue that's not going to affect my vote since there is far too much at stake for us here in our own country. Again, do you think Palestine is concerned about America or our rights? Edited January 27 by BeenTheShit
rihannafan Posted January 27 Posted January 27 10 minutes ago, BeenTheShit said: I never said it's separate from elections, just that it's an issue that's not going to affect my vote since there is far too much at stake for us here in our own country. Again, do you think Palestine is concerned about America or our rights? What part of your taxes are going to wars instead of healthcare are you not understanding? And Actually the US does interfere in elections all over the world so they have no choice most of the time.
byzantium Posted January 27 Posted January 27 8 minutes ago, BeenTheShit said: Do you honestly think Palestine cares about us, or our rights here America? Do you blame them? We are funding the eradication of their state. And since when does the victim need to be perfect to deserve our sympathy? This is weirdly similar logic to all the means testing that conservatives put on social benefits. 10 minutes ago, BeenTheShit said: I never said I wasn't going to help Biden's election campaign. I was just showing you that I've done nothing so far and that's my choice. Plus, I never claimed that Biden is perfect or the poster child of morality, just that he's the better option over Trump. I never said you weren’t. I still stand by the idea that that does not necessarily invalidate one’s position. I also don’t think any candidate needs to be perfect. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I liked Biden’s first 2.5 years and was part of an organization geared towards getting the youth vote in WI. But he crossed a line in October that I could not in good conscience follow. And have a friend who lost two of their cousins in Palestine last year and I could not imagine saying to them, “I’m sorry for your loss but the death of your family members is not enough reason to protest the administration that enabled those deaths.” 1
BeenTheShit Posted January 27 Posted January 27 3 minutes ago, rihannafan said: What part of your taxes are going to wars instead of healthcare are you not understanding? And Actually the US does interfere in elections all over the world so they have no choice most of the time. I understand that completely. What exactly would you like me to do about it? Stop paying my taxes in protest and go to jail? 2 minutes ago, byzantium said: Do you blame them? We are funding the eradication of their state. And since when does the victim need to be perfect to deserve our sympathy? This is weirdly similar logic to all the means testing that conservatives put on social benefits. I never said you weren’t. I still stand by the idea that that does not necessarily invalidate one’s position. I also don’t think any candidate needs to be perfect. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I liked Biden’s first 2.5 years and was part of an organization geared towards getting the youth vote in WI. But he crossed a line in October that I could not in good conscience follow. And have a friend who lost two of their cousins in Palestine last year and I could not imagine saying to them, “I’m sorry for your loss but the death of your family members is not enough reason to protest the administration that enabled those deaths.” No I don’t blame them. I blame Hamas for putting them into this terrible situation. Again, I sympathize with the people of Palestine, but their own government is the ones who put them into this position. Did Hamas honestly think hiding behind civilians and camping underneath hospitals would stop Israel from attacking them? And protesting and not voting for Biden is your right as an American. However, just remember this election may take away those freedoms and more. 5
St. Charles Posted January 27 Posted January 27 55 minutes ago, Communion said: And yet you seem incapable of understanding that non-voters exist because they have come to the conclusion that no options presented in front of them are in their best interest, and this is remedied not by scolding and finger-waging but optimizing your candidate to better speak to the demands of the coalition you think is required to win. It didn't take long to go from "He would be the most progressive president since FDR if he won" in 2020 to "Your options are two white genocide supporters - pick!" now. No wonder the DNC is going bankrupt. Yet you're also not understanding the larger picture. What you do with your own vote is up to you, but you are now feigning moral superiority over those who are pragmatically using their vote. We have reason to believe the conditions for those in Palestine would be just as bad, if not worse, than what they are now if Trump is elected. Not only this, but our own democracy may be under threat as we are dealing with someone who has a history of trying to unravel democracy itself in the United States. I feel as though it is my duty to do this as Trump openly stated he wants to deport "Hamas supporters" (whatever that means to him, who knows?). I understand all the moral reservations you may have, and think that they are valid, but it is incredibly bad faith to abstain from one of the only politically effective tools you have while mischaracterizing others as evil for participating in their own political system. I'm sorry to tell you this, but your inaction doesn't morally absolve you from anything. I'm done with people attempting to equate Biden and Trump as "indistinguishable from each other." It lets me know that you are divorced from factual reality. My other issue with these opinions is that many of the people who maintain them fall into a hypocritical trap, as they usually do nothing to make up for the fact that they are withholding their own right to vote, which is one of the (only) political tools available to them. People can scream into the internet void all they want, but if they have made no other attempts to effect any change, they are objectively less politically effective than anyone who voted. This is an unfortunate reality, but no amount of downvotes will detach you from this. And please stop projecting that others are "finger-wagging" when you've missed zero opportunities to do the same.
rihannafan Posted January 27 Posted January 27 10 minutes ago, BeenTheShit said: I understand that completely. What exactly would you like me to do about it? Stop paying my taxes in protest and go to jail? No I don’t blame them. I blame Hamas for putting them into this terrible situation. Again, I sympathize with the people of Palestine, but their own government is the ones who put them into this position. Did Hamas honestly think hiding behind civilians and camping underneath hospitals would stop Israel from attacking them? And protesting and not voting for Biden is your right as an American. However, just remember this election may take away those freedoms and more. What you can do about it is not vote for some who keeps increasing the pentagon budget.
Communion Posted January 27 Author Posted January 27 2 minutes ago, St. Charles said: you are now feigning moral superiority No, I'm telling you that your desire to get other people to vote - not how you will use your vote - is failing and will fail because you don't understand political motivation. That you are wasting your time trying to make moral arguments to highly activated voters (those who would vote 3rd party, for example) when such is simply not a successful strategy. Trying to use altruism on those who it could convince like highly activated voters didn't work in 2016 when the candidate at the top of the ticket was morally polarizing for Democrats, and it's certainly not going to do so in 2024 when Biden doubles-down in his support of Israel. You have two realistic options in front of you - try and persuade inactivated voters who don't vote reliably (non-voters) with interesting policy proposals that they want because voting is transactional (see: young people turnout going up after Biden took on Bernie's student debt forgiveness policy) or somehow get Biden to stop supporting genocide so as to stop the moral calamity occurring for activated third party voters. If you have no interest in either of these things, you have no interest in Biden winning. 1
BeenTheShit Posted January 27 Posted January 27 7 minutes ago, rihannafan said: What you can do about it is not vote for some who keeps increasing the pentagon budget. Biden and Trump will both do that, and your third-party candidates have no shot of winning.
St. Charles Posted January 27 Posted January 27 8 minutes ago, Communion said: No, I'm telling you that your desire to get other people to vote - not how you will use your vote - is failing and will fail because you don't understand political motivation. Then it seems as though it's a dead horse. I'm not really trying to get you to change your decision, I'm defending my own decision to vote. I think that there has been a narrative afoot that if you vote for Biden, you're a terrible person who wants Palestinian people to suffer. I only want to dissolve that argument; who you vote for is up to you. 1
ClashAndBurn Posted January 27 Posted January 27 58 minutes ago, St. Charles said: if you vote for Biden, you're a terrible person who wants Palestinian people to suffer Well, Biden voters are certainly indifferent to suffering, because they can't bring themselves to demand better and are more than happy with the current status quo of brown people getting bombed to smithereens in the Middle East, so... yes. Biden voters are terrible people and shouldn't be crying about being fairly described as such. 1 2
wastedpotential Posted January 27 Posted January 27 4 minutes ago, ClashAndBurn said: Well, Biden voters are certainly indifferent to suffering, because they can't bring themselves to demand better and are more than happy with the current status quo of brown people getting bombed to smithereens in the Middle East, so... yes. Biden voters are terrible people and shouldn't be crying about being fairly described as such. It seems quite unlikely at this point that the Biden admin/re-election team will change its policy to reflect the demands of the people on this issue. Surely they're as aware of his need to win Michigan, Wisconsin, and Pennsylvania to win the election as we all are, and are continuously choosing to not respond to the demands of a bloc of voters critical to that victory after the release of every poll on the matter. Arab-Americans in Michigan and progressives in swing states around the country, have metaphorically thrown down the gauntlet, and the Biden team seems to be indifferent, and that pretty much unilaterally costs Biden his victory. The best lever that the pro-Palestinian movement had to pull has been pulled, and it didn't have any effect on Biden's policy, so why bother moralizing around the demands of voters still supporting Biden that will be just as ignored as the demands from the tens of thousands of former-Biden voters who have already sworn him off? Assuming that there is a pre-determined winner (as I've seen you argue before) and all Biden votes or anti-Biden protest votes are politically worthless, doesn't this just become an election of conscience on the left? Is there any point in shaming people for how they vote when the tradeoff is 'I don't want to vote for a man who enabled genocide' vs. 'I don't want to vote for a third party and enable the victory of a man who will continue genocide'? The Palestinians are equally genocided by both votes, so other than carving out a moral high-ground (for the time being, we'll have to see where the 'never Biden' voters feel this time next year), what is gained? Is it not just as immoral to derive some sense of superiority over the evil Biden libs for casting a vote that leads to the deaths of however many tens of thousands in Gaza, because you cast a vote that... also leads to the deaths of however many tens of thousands in Gaza with a Trump victory? 1
St. Charles Posted January 27 Posted January 27 41 minutes ago, ClashAndBurn said: Well, Biden voters are certainly indifferent to suffering, because they can't bring themselves to demand better and are more than happy with the current status quo of brown people getting bombed to smithereens in the Middle East, so... yes. Biden voters are terrible people and shouldn't be crying about being fairly described as such. This isn't true though. You can be unhappy with things, yet still vote based on what you are able to change. Realistically if there's a choice between something bad and worse, I'm going to use my vote to make sure the worse thing doesn't happen. It's fine if you don't, but none of the people who think this way are inherently terrible. 1 1
Communion Posted January 27 Author Posted January 27 (edited) 5 minutes ago, wastedpotential said: It seems quite unlikely at this point that the Biden admin/re-election team will change its policy to reflect the demands of the people on this issue. Surely they're as aware of his need to win Michigan, Wisconsin, and Pennsylvania to win the election as we all are, and are continuously choosing to not respond to the demands of a bloc of voters critical to that victory after the release of every poll on the matter Almost like this should be a lesson for anyone and everyone in 2020 who voted for Biden in the Democratic primary that they simply made the wrong choice and that this wrong choice will be a very painful lesson for the future that Democrats will not secure electoral success by tying themselves to right-wing ideologues. For all the talk about progressives possibly making a mistake and not learning from 2016, it seems centrists themselves have a very important lesson they still have not learned and will ultimately learn the hard way, with the mass suffering of others on their very shoulders. May one never make the mistake of voting for a right-wing Democrat again now knowing the years-long consequences of such. May the nightmare of Biden sabotaging his campaign for his love of Israel put fear in any liberal's heart before imagining a future where similarly corrupt liberals like Kamala, Buttigieg, Newsom, etc. are the next face of the Democratic party. I didn't vote for him in the 2020 primary so it's not on me though. Edited January 27 by Communion 2
wastedpotential Posted January 27 Posted January 27 12 minutes ago, Communion said: Almost like this should be a lesson for anyone and everyone in 2020 who voted for Biden in the Democratic primary that they simply made the wrong choice and that this wrong choice will be a very painful lesson for the future that Democrats will not secure electoral success by tying themselves to right-wing ideologues. For all the talk about progressives possibly making a mistake and not learning from 2016, it seems centrists themselves have a very important lesson they still have not learned and will ultimately learn the hard way, with the mass suffering of others on their very shoulders. May one never make the mistake of voting for a right-wing Democrat again now knowing the years-long consequences of such. May the nightmare of Biden sabotaging his campaign for his love of Israel put fear in any liberal's heart before imagining a future where similarly corrupt liberals like Kamala, Buttigieg, Newsom, etc. are the next face of the Democratic party. I didn't vote for him in the 2020 primary so it's not on me though. Neither did I, for as little good as it did for anyone in the end Still, it's rather optimistic of you to assume that we'll even get the chance to vote for a centrist or right-wing Democrat ever again
ClashAndBurn Posted January 28 Posted January 28 13 minutes ago, wastedpotential said: It seems quite unlikely at this point that the Biden admin/re-election team will change its policy to reflect the demands of the people on this issue. Surely they're as aware of his need to win Michigan, Wisconsin, and Pennsylvania to win the election as we all are, and are continuously choosing to not respond to the demands of a bloc of voters critical to that victory after the release of every poll on the matter. Arab-Americans in Michigan and progressives in swing states around the country, have metaphorically thrown down the gauntlet, and the Biden team seems to be indifferent, and that pretty much unilaterally costs Biden his victory. The best lever that the pro-Palestinian movement had to pull has been pulled, and it didn't have any effect on Biden's policy, so why bother moralizing around the demands of voters still supporting Biden that will be just as ignored as the demands from the tens of thousands of former-Biden voters who have already sworn him off? Assuming that there is a pre-determined winner (as I've seen you argue before) and all Biden votes or anti-Biden protest votes are politically worthless, doesn't this just become an election of conscience on the left? Is there any point in shaming people for how they vote when the tradeoff is 'I don't want to vote for a man who enabled genocide' vs. 'I don't want to vote for a third party and enable the victory of a man who will continue genocide'? The Palestinians are equally genocided by both votes, so other than carving out a moral high-ground (for the time being, we'll have to see where the 'never Biden' voters feel this time next year), what is gained? Is it not just as immoral to derive some sense of superiority over the evil Biden libs for casting a vote that leads to the deaths of however many tens of thousands in Gaza, because you cast a vote that... also leads to the deaths of however many tens of thousands in Gaza with a Trump victory? The gambit that Biden is playing is the hope that he can stay the course in supporting Israel no matter what, and that his supporters can beat dissenters into submission by guilt-tripping them into voting in his favor anyway. That is essentially what is going on in this thread. As for there being a pre-determined winner, that is the case for nearly 90% of the states, so yeah, more or less. Only a few actual swing states exist where any individual vote actually matters, and polling seems to indicate that my state will be extremely lopsided in Trump's favor this time in a way that hasn't been the case since Kerry lost to Bush 20 years ago.
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