news Germany cancels Holocaust survivor's talks for speaking out against genocide

[State of Grace.]

 

Quote

NERMEEN SHAIKH: We turn now to Marione Ingram. She’s an 88-year-old German American Holocaust survivor who’s been protesting for months outside the White House calling for a ceasefire in Gaza. She was scheduled to speak this month at eight different schools in her native Hamburg, Germany. She was planning to address students receiving awards recognizing their commitment to social justice activism. Then, in December, she was told by an event organizer that her appearances were canceled. The trip was eventually postponed until May.

 

AMY GOODMAN: Marione Ingram is author of The Hands of War: A Tale of Endurance and Hope from a Survivor of the Holocaust and also the book The Hands of Peace: A Holocaust Survivor’s Fight for Civil Rights in the American South. She’s joining us from Washington, D.C.

 

Marione, I’m sorry you had to leave the studio because there was an alarm in the building and everyone had to evacuate, but you’re back now. And you have heard the previous guests, two Palestinian American esteemed artists, talking about having been canceled, like you, Samia Halaby by Indiana University, and Emily Jacir was about to give a talk in Berlin. Talk about the reason you were given for going back to Hamburg, Germany, where you’ve gone a number of times to speak to young people, but the reason why your talks were canceled this month.

 

MARIONE INGRAM: Good morning, Amy. Yes, a bit of excitement, so I missed — I heard Samia’s explanation of her cancellation — I’m really sorry about that — and missed the other, because we were evacuated.

The reasons for my cancellation have been extremely vague, given a climate in Germany right now of a lot of antisemitic events, apparently. And the only concrete explanation I got from someone was that I, as a Holocaust survivor, would be used by the AfD, which is the Alternative for Deutschland, the Alternative for Germany, which is a neo-Nazi and a primarily antisemitic group. But I was told that they would use my picture and my protest sign in a propaganda — I can’t even figure out what kind of propaganda that would be used for, since they are basically Nazis and would be a destruction of —

 

AMY GOODMAN: The sign you’re talking about is, standing outside the White House, “Survivor says peace not war”?

 

MARIONE INGRAM: Yes, yes. But on the flip side, it says “Stop genocide in Gaza.” And that has upset the powers that be, politicians who decide what can be said and what cannot be said.

 

I have been speaking to students for years, and I was also told by several teachers that right now my presence, talking to students, is of the utmost importance, because the schools in Hamburg are so diverse and there are many students who come from countries where there is war, oppression, poverty, and students in really terrible positions of trying to manage what is going on, conflict with each other. And I was told that my presence is so important because I have a rapport with students, and they were looking forward to expressing their thoughts, because they know that in talking to me and with me that they can say everything that is on their minds without being criticized or ostracized.

 

I find it extremely — I understand Germany’s sensitivity because of their gruesome history. But Germany has also been the only country, maybe other than Rwanda, that has acknowledged its horrific history, and it has taught this history as a “never again” thing. We must face our history so we can learn from it. So it is surprising to me that Germany has chosen to silence me.

 

But I think the worst part of it is that they are silencing young people who are experiencing — especially in Germany, they are close to the war in Ukraine. They are troubled by what is going on by the war in the Mideast and the horrific slaughter of innocent people. It should be an absolute standstill of all governments when you are told that over 10,000 children are being murdered. There is no excuse for that.

 

And then to turn around — America and Germany’s support of Israel’s politics is extremely disturbing and, to me, frightening, because any time any government decides to silence the voices of people who oppose government policies, whatever they may be, this reminds me so much of my childhood. My childhood was spent in the first 10 years much the same way as the children of Gaza. I know exactly what they are going through. I know exactly what they are thinking. And this, apparently, has upset the Ministry of Culture, because I have compared the onset —

 

AMY GOODMAN: We have less than a minute to go.

 

MARIONE INGRAM: The silencing of the last survivor of all three major events in Hamburg — the firestorm, the worst bombing in the European war, and the Holocaust, where I lost almost all of my family — and the silencing of voices like all of our voices when they are most needed is indicative of something more frightening, because I believe when governments decide to silence voices in opposition to the stance that they are taking, then we have to really question very deeply why are they doing it and for what reason.

 

AMY GOODMAN: Marione Ingram, we’re going to have to leave it there, but we thank you so much for being with us, 88-year-old Jewish German Holocaust survivor, has been protesting, calling for Biden to support a Gaza ceasefire.

https://www.democracynow.org/2024/1/18/gaza_israel_palestine_solidarity_censorship

 

Absolutely wild to me how this country never passes the chance to be on the wrong side of history

[indochine]

It's so disgusting living in that country lately. The few people trying to speak out against this genocide are being silenced and cencored. People protesting for palestinians are being called islamists by the media.

[Kimi]

Germany is so violent

[Gov Hooka]

(Western) Germany was never actually denazified. 

[Komet]

The state of Germany canceled her talks? Was it the parliament or the president himself? 

Quote

Then, in December, she was told by an event organizer that her appearances were canceled. The trip was eventually postponed until May.

Did yall sleep through reading comprehension in school? 

[indochine]

42 minutes ago, Komet said:

The state of Germany canceled her talks? Was it the parliament or the president himself? 

Did yall sleep through reading comprehension in school? 

Did you hear her talk or..what didn't click?

[stevyy]

1 hour ago, Kimi said:

Germany is so violent

No violence detected. 

[stevyy]

50 minutes ago, Gov Hooka said:

(Western) Germany was never actually denazified. 

Am I a Nazi? Tell me. 

 

 

[stevyy]

47 minutes ago, Komet said:

The state of Germany canceled her talks? Was it the parliament or the president himself? 

Did yall sleep through reading comprehension in school? 

It's all in their head. 

 

 

 

[Communion]

1 hour ago, Komet said:

The state of Germany canceled her talks? Was it the parliament or the president himself? 

Did yall sleep through reading comprehension in school? 

 

27 minutes ago, stevyy said:

It's all in their head. 

 

 

 

Being a German Nationalist like you're both being is really kind of ironic given the current subject matter at hand, no?

[stevyy]

2 minutes ago, Communion said:

 

Being a German Nationalist like you're both being is really kind of ironic given the current subject matter at hand, no?

I'm a Nationalist. wow. thank you. What a weird definition of myself. 

 

Much like in the Mariah versus other acts threads, I only respod when I'm reading totally uncalled for, ignorant and irrational comments. 

 

Making the entire country out to be anti whatever or Nazis is just stupid. Sorry, for being so frank. But that's my opinion. 

 

I don't think that any non-Germans have any idea how controversial Israel is discussed here. But go on... We are all Nazis and always wrong and evil and violent. Makes sense. 

 

IIt's quite amusing. 

[Communion]

3 minutes ago, stevyy said:

I'm a Nationalist.

Yes. Denying the genocide of the Palestinian people - because the only way those of German national identity have come to terms with their history of mass genocide against Europe's Jews is not to internalize the view that genocide is bad as an act but that it was specifically that it was a genocide against Jews that makes it bad and thus Germany owes complete allegiance to a Jewish state now committing genocide to atone as individuals for their original sin - makes you a German nationalist. 

Edited January 19 by Communion

[stevyy]

4 minutes ago, Communion said:

Yes. Denying the genocide of the Palestinian people - because the only way those of German national identity have come to terms with their history of mass genocide against Europe's Jews is not to internalize the view that genocide is bad as an act but that it was specifically that it was a genocide against Jews that makes it bad and thus Germany owes complete allegiance to a Jewish state now committing genocide to atone as individuals for their original sin - makes you a German nationalist. 

OK. I'm a Nazi now. Thank you for the clarification. 

 

Germany has a historic oblgation and responsibility, denying that is very un-historic and ignorant. But thank you for your opinion. 

 

Germany does not support any genocide. I personally wish, my country would not sell weapons to any authoritarian country (I'm not saying Israel is one), I have Saudi Arabia in my mind. 

 

But I cannot do more than voting for parties which are against that. But apparently, I'm a Nazi now... so I forgot. But I still won't vote for any conservative party. 

 

The current government has the lowest approval rating of any German government in the history of the formation of my country in 1945. But... I forgot, all Germans are Nazis. Sorry. 

[Glam]

Supply and demand.

 

If she's a holocaust survivor I would guess that a lot of her regular audience is jewish.

[Communion]

7 minutes ago, stevyy said:

Germany has a historic oblgation and responsibility,

Again, as I said:

17 minutes ago, Communion said:

Yes. Denying the genocide of the Palestinian people - because the only way those of German national identity have come to terms with their history of mass genocide against Europe's Jews is not to internalize the view that genocide is bad as an act but that it was specifically that it was a genocide against Jews that makes it bad and thus Germany owes complete allegiance to a Jewish state now committing genocide to atone as individuals for their original sin - makes you a German nationalist. 

Your entire nation has learned the wrong lesson from its dark history and sarcastically recognizing your country supports genocide won't make it any less true. 

[Both Sides Now]

Germany rationalises its genocidal history solely through the Holocaust of the Jewish people. Having visited the Dachau concentration camp and the Jewish Museum and The Memorial to the Murdered Jews of Europe in Berlin, I would say that Germany is pretty good at acknowledging its horrific history in their extermination of the Jews. However, part of that acknowledgment seems to be unwavering support of Israel even when they are committing genocide. Which is why they intervened against South Africa’s case for genocide this month. 

It is much easier for Germans to think “oh we did a bad thing once but we said sorry and we’ve moved on!” I guess it eases a guilty conscience. But it’s not enough:

It took Germany over 100 years to acknowledge the Namibian genocide. Only very recently acknowledged gay people were targeted by Nazi Germany. It took them over 40 years to pay proper reparations to Poland (Nazi Germany killed 2 million Poles). 
 

Rather disgustingly, it took Germany over 70 years to pay reparations to Romani people who were also exterminated during the Holocaust. Germany offered a one-off payment of 2.5K euros to each surviving victim. Meanwhile, Germany has paid Israel over 36B euros. Up to 1.5M Romani were murdered by Nazi Germany.

 

I understand that it is easier for some Germans to think that they have put their genocidal history to bed but it’s simply not the case. Thankfully, the German public is not reflective of their Govt and a few Boomer ATRL users: 

 

 

Edited January 19 by Both Sides Now

[Bosque]

3 hours ago, Komet said:

The state of Germany canceled her talks? Was it the parliament or the president himself? 

Did yall sleep through reading comprehension in school? 

Stop asking questions that disrupt the popular narrative.

 

Quote

The trip was eventually postponed until May.

Her events speaking at random schools all located in the same city in Germany were postponed for 4 months, which is the mathematical equal of genocide.

Edited January 19 by Dephira

[Bosque]

1 hour ago, Both Sides Now said:

Germany rationalises its genocidal history solely through the Holocaust of the Jewish people. Having visited the Dachau concentration camp and the Jewish Museum and The Memorial to the Murdered Jews of Europe in Berlin, I would say that Germany is pretty good at acknowledging its horrific history in their extermination of the Jews. However, part of that acknowledgment seems to be unwavering support of Israel even when they are committing genocide. Which is why they intervened against South Africa’s case for genocide this month.

 

Is that really the reason they intervened? If so, how does the Jewish Holocaust relate to Germany's intervention in the 2019 Rohingya case in front of the ICJ?

 

Quote

In proceedings initiated by The Gambia against Myanmar concerning the genocide of the Rohingya in 2019, similar questions of attribution and evidence arose. In November 2023, Germany, together with Denmark, France, the Netherlands, the United Kingdom and Canada, took a position on these issues by way of an intervention under Article 63 para. 2 of the ICJ Statute and supported The Gambia’s position as applicant. This participation in the proceedings, as well as other reasons to be explained below, speak in favor of also declaring an intervention in the proceedings between South Africa and Israel – in this case, however, with the aim of supporting Israel as defendant and countering the South African argumentation.

 

[Both Sides Now]

1 minute ago, Dephira said:

Is that really the reason they intervened? If so, how does the Jewish Holocaust relate to Germany's intervention in the 2019 Rohingya case in front of the ICJ?

 

 

…Did you read what I wrote? Because Germany is not complicit in the Rohingya genocide.
 

It’s very easy to condemn something that you’re not involved with. It’s a bit harder when you are exporting weapons at a massively increased pace to fast track the genocide. They are complicit in the Palestinian genocide.
 

The German position is “We said we’re sorry. We made amends. We do what Israel tells us. We feel good about ourselves. Let’s move on.” That is why you shamefully intervened against South Africa’s case. Nice attempt at a gotcha though. 

[Bosque]

6 minutes ago, Both Sides Now said:

…Did you read what I wrote? Because Germany is not complicit in the Rohingya genocide.
 

It’s very easy to condemn something that you’re not involved with. It’s a bit harder when you are exporting weapons at a massively increased pace to fast track the genocide. They are complicit in the Palestinian genocide.
 

The German position is “We said we’re sorry. We made amends. We do what Israel tells us. We feel good about ourselves. Let’s move on.” That is why you shamefully intervened against South Africa’s case. Nice attempt at a gotcha though. 

Nah, it's not. Did you read the court case and Germany's statement, as well as their well-established reasons for intervening?

 

How does participating in a court case (that was hailed by leftists as an amazing court case that would finally bring to light all the bad stuff Israel has done) equal to "Let's move on" exactly?

Edited January 19 by Dephira

[Both Sides Now]

23 minutes ago, Dephira said:

Nah, it's not. Did you read the court case and Germany's statement, as well as their well-established reasons for intervening?

 

How does participating in a court case (that was hailed by leftists as an amazing court case that would finally bring to light all the bad stuff Israel has done) equal to "Let's move on" exactly?

What is “leftist” in your terms? Someone who sees genocide as a bad thing? Pathetic. 
 

What is the well-established reasoning? Quote:

“This accusation has no basis whatsoever… In view of Germany’s history, crimes against humanity, and Shoah (catastrophe in English), the government is particularly committed to the UN Genocide Convention.”

 

They literally presented no reasoning as to why they’re intervening except that Germany committed a genocide against Jews so they feel guilty. 
 

The Prime Minister declared that Palestinians were Amalek. Today he declared that there will be no more Palestinians in Gaza or the West Bank after they are finished. They’ve murdered over 24 thousand people and bombed every hospital in Gaza. They shoot Christian women in churches. They shoot their own hostages. It is clear to anyone with two brain cells connected that this is a genocide. Maybe Germany is scared because it promises Israel more death drones making them complicit? Meanwhile Germany’s domestic politics are ****** with literal Nazis and Putin-sympathisers beating SPD in the polls. A disaster for Scholtz and his ilk. Yikes!

Edited January 19 by Both Sides Now

[Bosque]

11 minutes ago, Both Sides Now said:

 

They literally presented no reasoning as to why they’re intervening except that Germany committed a genocide against Jews so they feel guilty. 
 

This... literally is not even part of Germany's statement at the court? Did you even read an article summarizing the proceedings? Because there is nothing about Germany "feeling guilty about committing a genocide against Jews"

 

Here is a short summary of the arguments if you are curious about educating yourself.

 

Would you care to explain how exactly "participating in a court case" equals to "moving on from something"?

 

 

Edited January 19 by Dephira

[Both Sides Now]

12 minutes ago, Dephira said:

This... literally is not even part of Germany's statement at the court? Did you even read an article summarizing the proceedings? Because there is nothing about Germany "feeling guilty about committing a genocide against Jews"

 

Here is a short summary of the arguments if you are curious about educating yourself

 

 

This is the official statement from Germany, as I quoted. They make no reasoning but say they feel guilty because they genocided European Jews. 
 

 

This video only contains a clip from the German Economy Minster who (while speaking in Israel) said that “From The River To Sea” constitutes genocidal intent. Whoopsie! That’s what Netanyahu just said. Another pathetic L for Germany. Thank you for adding to South Africa’s case Germany!
 

His other point is that Hamas is the actual genocidal party. A useless point since Hamas is not a state and therefore can’t be brought before The Hague. 
 

This topic seems a bit advanced for you. Maybe you should spend your time canvassing for SPD instead. They desperately need the votes!

Edited January 19 by Both Sides Now

[Cain]

Germany just loves genocides

[stevyy]

16 minutes ago, Cain said:

Germany just loves genocides

one of the most insufferable and quite frankly stupid comments I've ever seen.