Armani? Posted January 16 Author Posted January 16 1 hour ago, Daddy said: MJ molested and raped little boys and deep down you know it. Just curious which of the accusers you think is telling the truth. There are a few that may hold weight. In before you say Wade Robson who changes his story plotline every 60 seconds
ATRL Moderator Bloo Posted January 16 ATRL Moderator Posted January 16 31 minutes ago, Armani? said: Just curious which of the accusers you think is telling the truth. There are a few that may hold weight. In before you say Wade Robson who changes his story plotline every 60 seconds I think it's a bit disconcerting that people like to "find holes" in the memories of adult men trying to recount events that allegedly happened to them decades ago over a large span of time. If they were describing a single, isolated event, then sure. But, fragmented memories are commonly associated with complex post-tramatic stress disorder (C-PTSD) [link]. C-PTSD differs from standard PTSD in that the inciting event that underlies the diagnosis occurred over a long span of time—which lines up naturally with the allegations. Not to play armchair psychologist, but it's just bad practice to besmirch any alleged victim of child sexual abuse for having fuzzy recollection of events they are alleging to happen—especially when the "holes" are along the lines of, "They claimed this happened in this place in 1993, but that place wasn't built until 1994!" I have traumatic memories from my past. I can't say for certain when they happened or even what grade I was in when they happened. Not remembering precise details about the happenings of childhood events is extremely normal. So, while many love to paint Wade Robson as unreliable, the tearing him apart just seems inappropriate and like giant reaches that miss the larger context of the allegations themselves. Regardless, it is just bad rhetoric and should be harshly discouraged when we're talking about any type of long-form trauma. The more we besmirch and attack the entire personhood of a person coming out as having been victims of child sexual abuse, the worse we make things for these victims. That rhetoric only helps abusers. Even if you discount Wade Robson entirely, the fact that Jackson has several allegations that are eerily similar, cycled out young boys to surround him that were around the same age, and fits the criminal profile of a specific kind of pedophile, is enough to take the allegations seriously. Trying to justify Jackson's inappropriate actions that are publicly confirmed by attacking and tearing apart Wade Robson, an alleged victim, is just harmful to other possible victims of child sexual abuse. That's my main interest in the entire series of MJ allegations. He's dead. But his alleged victims are still here and speaking their truths and we should handle these discussions delicately and productively such that victims don't feel like they fear coming out to challenge those in power. 1 3
Armani? Posted January 16 Author Posted January 16 18 hours ago, Bloo said: I think it's a bit disconcerting that people like to "find holes" in the memories of adult men trying to recount events that allegedly happened to them decades ago over a large span of time. If they were describing a single, isolated event, then sure. But, fragmented memories is commonly associated with complex post-tramatic stress disorder (C-PTSD) [link]. C-PTSD differs from standard PTSD in that the inciting event that underlies the diagnosis occurred over a long span of time. Not to play armchair psychologist, but it's just bad practice to besmirch any alleged victim of child sexual abuse for having fuzzy recollection of events they are alleging to happen—especially when the "holes" are along the lines of, "They claimed this happened in this place in 1993, but that place wasn't built until 1994!" This is just bad rhetoric and should be harshly discouraged when we're talking about any type of long-form trauma. The more we besmirch and attack the entire personhood of a person coming out as having been victims of child sexual abuse, the worse we make things for these victims. That rhetoric only helps abusers. That's my main interest in the entire series of MJ allegations. He's dead. But his alleged victims are still here and speaking their truths and we should handle these discussions delicately and productively such that victims don't feel like they fear coming out to challenge those in power. True, but it's different when making a big budget documentary where you can easily verify when certain things happened prior at specific landmarks or events like the dinner after the trial, the train station or going to eurodisney. It comes across as extremely lazy & less credible. They also hinted MJ allegedly abused other kids in the documentary other than Wade & Safechuck like Brett Barnes but the director purposely didn't include them in the documentary to say what happened themselves because of accusations of bribery which is a bit ironic? They could have easily just left that out, they got lawsuit threats for that.
MattieB Posted January 17 Posted January 17 15 hours ago, Bloo said: I think it's a bit disconcerting that people like to "find holes" in the memories of adult men trying to recount events that allegedly happened to them decades ago over a large span of time. If they were describing a single, isolated event, then sure. But, fragmented memories are commonly associated with complex post-tramatic stress disorder (C-PTSD) [link]. C-PTSD differs from standard PTSD in that the inciting event that underlies the diagnosis occurred over a long span of time—which lines up naturally with the allegations. Not to play armchair psychologist, but it's just bad practice to besmirch any alleged victim of child sexual abuse for having fuzzy recollection of events they are alleging to happen—especially when the "holes" are along the lines of, "They claimed this happened in this place in 1993, but that place wasn't built until 1994!" I have traumatic memories from my past. I can't say for certain when they happened or even what grade I was in when they happened. Not remembering precise details about the happenings of childhood events is extremely normal. So, while many love to paint Wade Robson as unreliable, the tearing him apart just seems inappropriate and like giant reaches that miss the larger context of the allegations themselves. Regardless, it is just bad rhetoric and should be harshly discouraged when we're talking about any type of long-form trauma. The more we besmirch and attack the entire personhood of a person coming out as having been victims of child sexual abuse, the worse we make things for these victims. That rhetoric only helps abusers. Even if you discount Wade Robson entirely, the fact that Jackson has several allegations that are eerily similar, cycled out young boys to surround him that were around the same age, and fits the criminal profile of a specific kind of pedophile, is enough to take the allegations seriously. Trying to justify Jackson's inappropriate actions that are publicly confirmed by attacking and tearing apart Wade Robson, an alleged victim, is just harmful to other possible victims of child sexual abuse. That's my main interest in the entire series of MJ allegations. He's dead. But his alleged victims are still here and speaking their truths and we should handle these discussions delicately and productively such that victims don't feel like they fear coming out to challenge those in power. Spare me that crap lmao. Why's it so bad to believe there are bad people in this world who would love to take advantage of the situation and get paid Wade especially had sung nothing but praises to that man even after his death, and only came out with this BS when his wallets started running thinner, it was an agenda, why do you think they got Oprah Winfrey of all people to host the series? PLEASE. OPRAH WEINSTEIN/EPSTEIN ISLAND WINFREY Jordan Chandler emancipated himself from his family the earliest possible way he could, he even accused his dad of attacking and macing him in the late 00s Jordan's dad Evan Chandler (the same man on the voice tapes bragging about taking an influential black man down) killed himself a few weeks after MJs death The patterns are aligning themselves perfectly for everyone but yall , the lack of emotional intelligence will be the death of society 2 2
Armani? Posted January 17 Author Posted January 17 Yeah, Wade has been purely opportunistic ever since MJ died, even before he switched about MJ abusing him. He switched around the time he was kept off a MJ Las Vegas Show as a director in the early 2010s, and he lied about getting the job before they told him if he had it or not, I guess he felt entitled? Then after that he did a complete 180 & tried writing a book about the alleged sexual allegations & no publisher took it. Just believing him in particular surface level is definitely a CHOICE as also a 1st defense witness If MJ knew he abused him it'd be very odd to make him the 1st person in his trial to defend him. He could have chosen literally anyone else. This is literally comedy If there are some abuse victims by MJ, Wade is not making the case for them to speak out being the loudest wishy washy person in this
ATRL Moderator Bloo Posted January 17 ATRL Moderator Posted January 17 10 hours ago, MattieB said: Spare me that crap lmao. I'm still waiting for your list of my faves that stan Michael Jackson. 7 hours ago, Armani? said: Just believing him in particular surface level is definitely a CHOICE as also a 1st defense witness If MJ knew he abused him it'd be very odd to make him the 1st person in his trial to defend him. He could have chosen literally anyone else. Michael Jackson is the man that brought on a 13-year old boy to hold hands with and cuddle with on camera to convince the public he is an upstanding person of moral character. Why do you think Michael Jackson had an idea of what appropriate relationships with children in any capacity? He clearly thought nothing was wrong with his relationships with children. Why is it so crazy to think he would elicit a child to lie on his behalf? Child sexual abuse is greatly characterized by the fact that victims often have no idea that they are even abused because they are children. That's the entire point. This argument does not at all vindicate Michael Jackson nor does it discredit Wade Robson's credibility. It really just shows a dismissal for the nuances of victims of child sexual abuse. Quote This is literally comedy If there are some abuse victims by MJ, Wade is not making the case for them to speak out being the loudest wishy washy person in this The actual comedy here is thinking a grown man making allegations strikingly similar to SIX other men is less believable than the man that has sleepovers with children and says it's a beautiful thing. 2
Armani? Posted January 17 Author Posted January 17 37 minutes ago, Bloo said: Michael Jackson is the man that brought on a 13-year old boy to hold hands with and cuddle with on camera to convince the public he is an upstanding person of moral character. Why do you think Michael Jackson had an idea of what appropriate relationships with children in any capacity? He clearly thought nothing was wrong with his relationships with children. Why is it so crazy to think he would elicit a child to lie on his behalf? Child sexual abuse is greatly characterized by the fact that victims often have no idea that they are even abused because they are children. That's the entire point. This argument does not at all vindicate Michael Jackson nor does it discredit Wade Robson's credibility. It really just shows a dismissal for the nuances of victims of child sexual abuse. The actual comedy here is thinking a grown man making allegations strikingly similar to SIX other men is less believable than the man that has sleepovers with children and says it's a beautiful thing. Well he also put up alarms in his house that people would seemingly think was used to alert him so he wouldn't be caught doing inappropriate things with children. So if that's true, then if he did abuse Wade (which I doubt) then I think he'd be strategic enough(as well as his lawyers) to not have Wade Robson as his 1st witness. He also did not have *****graphy in his house, it was all legal books you can easily buy. So he allegedly was strategic on that as well. Interesting how Wade only realized he was abused when he flopped getting a director role for a Michael Jackson show (Cirque du Soleil), like immediately after that to devote months trying to write a book about the allegations. Kind of shady but well.... 1
ATRL Moderator Bloo Posted January 17 ATRL Moderator Posted January 17 18 minutes ago, Armani? said: Well he also put up alarms in his house that people would seemingly think was used to alert him so he wouldn't be caught doing inappropriate things with children. So if that's true, then if he did abuse Wade (which I doubt) then I think he'd be strategic enough(as well as his lawyers) to not have Wade Robson as his 1st witness. Interesting how Wade only realized he was abused when he flopped getting a director role for a Michael Jackson show (Cirque du Soleil), like immediately after that. Kind of shady but well.... I’m only going to respond to the last bit. But, the MeToo movement is still very recent in our history and it opened up a lot of conversations about how to engage with sexual abuse allegations and to not outright dismiss them entirely because it only makes it more difficult for women to come forward. The MeToo movement, while great, was largely centered around women and sexual abuse where men and boys are the victims are often even more difficult to navigate. Large chunks of society believe men cannot be sexually abused, that they are consenting if they have an erection, that men always want sex and thus cannot ever be sexually assaulted, and that women cannot be sexual predators of men. These are all false, of course. But, there’s even more of a slapstick nature on this matter. Jokes about men getting sexually assaulted are treated with a much greater deal of levity than women. How many times have we all heard the “you know what happens in prison” jokes? [Click Here] for more about this issue. The combination of this and other social aspects has made it extremely difficult for any man to come forward and discuss sexual abuse they’ve experienced. There’s also the thinking that if a boy is sexually abused by a woman that the boy “got lucky” or lived out a “fantasy”. We are not at a place as a society for men to come forward. We are massively behind in terms of helping male sexual assault victims feel safe to come forward. This all applies to Wade. Trying to reduce all of this to, “Well, how convenient, he only came forward after so long because of X” when it literally could just be because we don’t take male sexual abuse victims seriously is directly contributing to the problem. Especially when Wade is only a piece of the larger story. His allegations only echo a pattern from several other allegations, so it's not even important or significant to discredit him. No one can rule and make a wholistic decision as to whether the allegations for sure happened. However, there is a lot of smoke and it’s not just because of Wade. There are 6 other men with creepily similar descriptions and there are other eyewitnesses (e.g., Neverland staffer that claimed to have saw Wade and Jackson showering together). However, it is so unproductive to besmirch Wade entirely. Jackson is dead. Nothing bad is going to happen to him one way or another. He’s no longer here. The story of these allegations are important because sexual violence against children still happens and grooming still happens and we need to be able to listen to these allegations, think them over, with the goal of preventing similar events from happening again. We can only do that if we are respectful of the men making the allegations. If we just attack them, then we’re only hurting other victims from feeling safe to come forward. I ultimately am not trying to shame anybody from enjoying Michael Jackson’s art. His music is amazing. If you can separate the art from the artist even with these allegations, more power to you. I wish I could. I loved Michael Jackson’s music. Man In The Mirror is one of my favorite songs of all time even though I haven’t listened to it since watching Leaving Neverland and really soaking in my thoughts on that film. But, the end goal should be to help create a culture where victims of sexual abuse can feel safe to come forward. That should be the end goal. That doesn’t happen if we are mocking people who step forward nonstop. On that note, I think I’m done responding in this thread on this subject. I’ve said my piece. If people are interested in learning more, feel free to look up the videos by Roxanne Roxanne on YouTube. 5
Armani? Posted January 17 Author Posted January 17 7 minutes ago, Bloo said: I’m only going to respond to the last bit. But, the MeToo movement is still very recent in our history and it opened up a lot of conversations about how to engage with sexual abuse allegations and to not outright dismiss them entirely because it only makes it more difficult for women to come forward. The MeToo movement, while great, was largely centered around women and sexual abuse where men and boys are the victims are often even more difficult to navigate. Large chunks of society believe men cannot be sexually abused, that they are consenting if they have an erection, that men always want sex and thus cannot ever be sexually assaulted, and that women cannot be sexual predators of men. These are all false, of course. But, there’s even more of a slapstick nature on this matter. Jokes about men getting sexually assaulted are treated with a much greater deal of levity than women. How many times have we all heard the “you know what happens in prison” jokes? The combination of this and other social aspects has made it extremely difficult for any man to come forward and discuss sexual abuse they’ve experienced. There’s also the thinking that if a boy is sexually abused by a woman that the boy “got lucky” or lived out a “fantasy”. We are not at a place as a society for men to come forward. We are massively behind in terms of helping male sexual assault victims feel safe to come forward. This all applies to Wade. Trying to reduce all of this to, “Well, how convenient, he only came forward after so long because of X” when it literally could just be because we don’t take male sexual abuse victims seriously is directly contributing to the problem. No one can rule and make a wholistic decision as to whether the allegations for sure happened. However, there is a lot of smoke and it’s not just because of Wade. There are 6 other men with creepily similar descriptions and there are other eyewitnesses (e.g., Neverland staffer that claimed to have saw Wade and Jackson showering together). However, it is so unproductive to besmirch Wade entirely. Jackson is dead. Nothing bad is going to happen to him one way or another. He’s no longer here. The story of these allegations are important because sexual violence against children still happens and grooming still happens and we need to be able to listen to these allegations, think them over, with the goal of preventing similar events from happening again. We can only do that if we are respectful of the men making the allegations. If we just attack them, then we’re only hurting other victims from feeling safe to come forward. I ultimately am not trying to shame anybody from enjoying Michael Jackson’s art. His music is amazing. If you can separate the art from the artist even with these allegations, more power to you. I wish I could. I loved Michael Jackson’s music. Man In The Mirror is one of my favorite songs of all time even though I haven’t listened to it since watching Leaving Neverland and really soaking in my thoughts on that film. But, the end goal should be to help create a culture where victims of sexual abuse can feel safe to come forward. That should be the end goal. That doesn’t happen if we are mocking people who step forward nonstop. On that note, I think I’m done responding in this thread on this subject. I’ve said my piece. If people are interested in learning more, feel free to look up the videos by Roxanne Roxanne on YouTube. I'm open to some of the other victim accusations, I just highly doubt Wade out of all of them because of how everything went down And if he's lying, he's not helping what you just described here
MattieB Posted January 18 Posted January 18 13 hours ago, Bloo said: I'm still waiting for your list of my faves that stan Michael Jackson. Michael Jackson is the man that brought on a 13-year old boy to hold hands with and cuddle with on camera to convince the public he is an upstanding person of moral character. Why do you think Michael Jackson had an idea of what appropriate relationships with children in any capacity? He clearly thought nothing was wrong with his relationships with children. Why is it so crazy to think he would elicit a child to lie on his behalf? Child sexual abuse is greatly characterized by the fact that victims often have no idea that they are even abused because they are children. That's the entire point. This argument does not at all vindicate Michael Jackson nor does it discredit Wade Robson's credibility. It really just shows a dismissal for the nuances of victims of child sexual abuse. The actual comedy here is thinking a grown man making allegations strikingly similar to SIX other men is less believable than the man that has sleepovers with children and says it's a beautiful thing. I don't have to list anyone, thats the point. You have a musician fave? They revere and have probably mentioned that man as an influence in their lifetime 1
MattieB Posted January 18 Posted January 18 12 hours ago, Armani? said: I'm open to some of the other victim accusations, I just highly doubt Wade out of all of them because of how everything went down And if he's lying, he's not helping what you just described here How are you open to any of them? You don't have to bow down to any of these weirdos lmfao. Michael was an innocent man, all of the families of the accused colluded with each other AND each other https://www.huffpost.com/entry/one-of-the-most-shameful_b_610258 Read this. Its actually quite shameful 2
MattieB Posted January 18 Posted January 18 13 hours ago, Bloo said: I’m only going to respond to the last bit. But, the MeToo movement is still very recent in our history and it opened up a lot of conversations about how to engage with sexual abuse allegations and to not outright dismiss them entirely because it only makes it more difficult for women to come forward. The MeToo movement, while great, was largely centered around women and sexual abuse where men and boys are the victims are often even more difficult to navigate. Large chunks of society believe men cannot be sexually abused, that they are consenting if they have an erection, that men always want sex and thus cannot ever be sexually assaulted, and that women cannot be sexual predators of men. These are all false, of course. But, there’s even more of a slapstick nature on this matter. Jokes about men getting sexually assaulted are treated with a much greater deal of levity than women. How many times have we all heard the “you know what happens in prison” jokes? [Click Here] for more about this issue. The combination of this and other social aspects has made it extremely difficult for any man to come forward and discuss sexual abuse they’ve experienced. There’s also the thinking that if a boy is sexually abused by a woman that the boy “got lucky” or lived out a “fantasy”. We are not at a place as a society for men to come forward. We are massively behind in terms of helping male sexual assault victims feel safe to come forward. This all applies to Wade. Trying to reduce all of this to, “Well, how convenient, he only came forward after so long because of X” when it literally could just be because we don’t take male sexual abuse victims seriously is directly contributing to the problem. Especially when Wade is only a piece of the larger story. His allegations only echo a pattern from several other allegations, so it's not even important or significant to discredit him. No one can rule and make a wholistic decision as to whether the allegations for sure happened. However, there is a lot of smoke and it’s not just because of Wade. There are 6 other men with creepily similar descriptions and there are other eyewitnesses (e.g., Neverland staffer that claimed to have saw Wade and Jackson showering together). However, it is so unproductive to besmirch Wade entirely. Jackson is dead. Nothing bad is going to happen to him one way or another. He’s no longer here. The story of these allegations are important because sexual violence against children still happens and grooming still happens and we need to be able to listen to these allegations, think them over, with the goal of preventing similar events from happening again. We can only do that if we are respectful of the men making the allegations. If we just attack them, then we’re only hurting other victims from feeling safe to come forward. I ultimately am not trying to shame anybody from enjoying Michael Jackson’s art. His music is amazing. If you can separate the art from the artist even with these allegations, more power to you. I wish I could. I loved Michael Jackson’s music. Man In The Mirror is one of my favorite songs of all time even though I haven’t listened to it since watching Leaving Neverland and really soaking in my thoughts on that film. But, the end goal should be to help create a culture where victims of sexual abuse can feel safe to come forward. That should be the end goal. That doesn’t happen if we are mocking people who step forward nonstop. On that note, I think I’m done responding in this thread on this subject. I’ve said my piece. If people are interested in learning more, feel free to look up the videos by Roxanne Roxanne on YouTube. And if YOU are interested in learning more, give this a read https://www.huffpost.com/entry/one-of-the-most-shameful_b_610258 Imagine thinking the AMERICAN media and law enforcement are some symbols of justice 2
HardBambi Posted January 18 Posted January 18 On 1/14/2024 at 8:56 PM, Love Again said: Biopics are so boring and overdone now. We only want Madonna's But not made by haself 😂 1
spiritboy Posted January 18 Posted January 18 If done well, i can see this movie being huge. MJ still has the global appeal and he has a fantastic catalogue. I'm only curious about how they will handle his accusations? 1
Slap Posted January 19 Posted January 19 (edited) This is great news for child actors, lots of roles for them! Also the delusion of the MJ fans is so entertaining. Edited January 19 by Slap 1
Shelter Posted January 28 Posted January 28 Yes MJ did some questionable things and his behaviour is questionable, but a lot of things don’t add up when you look at it. Why wait til he is dead to bring up this stuff. If Wade just told his story and didn’t want money it might be more believable. MJ made himself an easy target and should not have been around children, that is one thing he is guilty of. Back on topic. Hopefully it’s actually decent, more like the Queen movie and not the Whitney one. I feel like it’s going to be a mess. They need this to be great for his legacy tbh 1
Gov Hooka Posted January 28 Posted January 28 The guy is dead, leave him alone and let’s just remember the music/art and ignore his awful life and crimes (yes he is certainly guilty - so many victims came forward) 1
Shelter Posted January 28 Posted January 28 3 minutes ago, Gov Hooka said: The guy is dead, leave him alone and let’s just remember the music/art and ignore his awful life and crimes (yes he is certainly guilty - so many victims came forward) Who? 1
i spit on haters Posted January 28 Posted January 28 On 1/16/2024 at 11:43 AM, Armani? said: Just curious which of the accusers you think is telling the truth. There are a few that may hold weight. In before you say Wade Robson who changes his story plotline every 60 seconds ...Is...is that not enough ? 2 1
stevyy Posted January 29 Posted January 29 On 1/14/2024 at 11:02 PM, MadOnHer said: They're promising an "honest portrayal" with MJ being played by his nephew and the film being produced by the two executors of his estate! well, those "documentaries" were produced by MJ haters and proven liars... a narration full of lies and inconsistencies, hear-say and nothing but a whole lot of "opinion". 1 2 2
MadOnHer Posted January 29 Posted January 29 8 hours ago, stevyy said: well, those "documentaries" were produced by MJ haters and proven liars... a narration full of lies and inconsistencies, hear-say and nothing but a whole lot of "opinion". Leaving Neverland was produced by "MJ Haters"? Who are you referring to exactly? And if they (Wade and James) are so-called "proven liars" then you are acknowledging the possibility that they lied in 1993 and 2005 when they defended MJ... 2
stevyy Posted January 29 Posted January 29 1 hour ago, MadOnHer said: Leaving Neverland was produced by "MJ Haters"? Who are you referring to exactly? And if they (Wade and James) are so-called "proven liars" then you are acknowledging the possibility that they lied in 1993 and 2005 when they defended MJ... The problem is that they have lied and so there is no way to know the truth now. For 20 years Robson claimed vehemently that nothing has happened. He sought out every media outlet he could find to support MJ. Suddenly, he changed his narrative. His lies now go both ways. You believe that what he is saying now, is the truth. I believe that I cannot believe anything that he is saying. Dan Reed literally said that proven untruths in his documentary do not matter. Anyway, I'm looking forward to the biopic. <3
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