news Israel-Palestine Conflict 2023/ 2024 Mega Thread

[stevyy]

2 minutes ago, Headlock said:

One would hope you would disagree with Israel perpetuating genocide, and not the “wording” about it.

Hamas' goal is to eradicate Jewish life from Israel. 

 

Israel's response to Hamas is disproportunate. I agree with that wording.

[Communion]

45 minutes ago, stevyy said:

I stand with Israel and I am aware that I will get reported for my conviction. 

 

farewell, atrl

I always was confused how, in particular, Western Europeans so publicly dedicated themselves to battling antisemitism after the horrors of the Holocaust, but yet often within the last 20 years have found themselves repeating the same kind of fascist, genocidal rhetoric of racialization and essentialism against other ethnic minorities, and how that disconnect and dissonance was taking place, like in your very post, but then I saw the very first below tweet and suddenly it became clear this dissonance from Europeans in their cheering of genocide against Palestinians is by every means intentional and not by accident:

 

 

Edited October 15, 2023 by Communion

[Headlock]

5 minutes ago, stevyy said:

I'm not supporting what you have described. 

It is offensive. 

By stating “I stand with Israel” you quite literally are supporting that. It’s telling that you would find offense over being told what your words mean rather than what the government you are supporting is doing.

 

Also that your justification is the constitution of… Germany? 

[Headlock]

2 minutes ago, stevyy said:

Hamas' goal is to eradicate Jewish life from Israel. 

 

Israel's response to Hamas is disproportunate. I agree with that wording.

Why does Hamas exist? Quickly.

[State of Grace.]

50 minutes ago, sunbathinganimal said:

https://x.com/Faytuks/status/1713340078729089078

 

The way we all said this here days ago. The plan has always been to wipe out large sections of Gaza, condense Palestinians into an even smaller area, occupy their land, and build more illegal settlements. "Defending itself" my ass.

 

The comments under this post are crazy. Genuinely felt sick to my stomach reading them

 

 

Edited October 15, 2023 by State of Grace.

[Harrier]

2 minutes ago, stevyy said:

Hamas' goal is to eradicate Jewish life from Israel. 

 

Israel's response to Hamas is disproportunate. I agree with that wording.

So why do you "stand with Israel" if you view their response is disproportionate? These aren't sports teams. You can abhor Hamas' actions last weekend and still support an immediate end to Israel's genocidal actions against the Palestinian people. We are in the early stages of a crime against humanity and anyone who can't acknowledge that is deliberately avoiding reality.

[mystery]

There are no words for the horror in the footage coming out of Gaza... to think it will probably get even worse in the coming days.

[stevyy]

3 minutes ago, Headlock said:

Why does Hamas exist? Quickly.

so, you are thinking that the atrocities that happened last week were justified?

[stevyy]

1 minute ago, Harrier said:

So why do you "stand with Israel" if you view their response is disproportionate? These aren't sports teams. You can abhor Hamas' actions last weekend and still support an immediate end to Israel's genocidal actions against the Palestinian people. We are in the early stages of a crime against humanity and anyone who can't acknowledge that is deliberately avoiding reality.

I support an end of all violence. Israel should be aware that every step further down this lane of pure retaliation will have unforeseen consequences.

[Headlock]

2 minutes ago, stevyy said:

so, you are thinking that the atrocities that happened last week were justified?

Nice straw man, but you aren’t wiggling out of this one. You stand with Israel. You classify Israel’s current genocide as a “response” to Hamas. You justify backing Israel due to Hamas’ purported goals. Now the question becomes: why did this group form to begin with?

[sunbathinganimal]

5 minutes ago, State of Grace. said:

The comments under this post are crazy. Genuinely felt sick in my stomach reading them

 

 

scary and disgusting

[stevyy]

1 minute ago, Headlock said:

Nice straw man, but you aren’t wiggling out of this one. You stand with Israel. You classify Israel’s current genocide as a “response” to Hamas. You justify backing Israel due to Hamas’ purported goals. Now the question becomes: why did this group form to begin with?

I do not support genocide. 

[Aethereal]

5 year old Palestinian girl describes her fears:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12631643/British-Palestine-girl-five-describes-fears-bombardment-Gaza-moving-TikTok-video.html?ico=topics_pagination_desktop

 

[Headlock]

Just now, stevyy said:

I do not support genocide. 

So do you stand with Israel or not?

[Gaia]

11 minutes ago, ClashAndBurn said:

The doxxing and blacklisting has been going on for years thanks to the Canary Mission. The Harvard student groups weren't the first instance of this, nor will they be the last.

 

https://theintercept.com/2018/11/22/israel-boycott-canary-mission-blacklist/

This isn't exactly a like for like situation. That article is from the perspective of an Islamic female in the US not even 10 years after 9/11 (when someone reported her as a threat). 

 

She wasn't just advocating for Palestine she was advocating for boycotting Israel.

 

That's no longer just a positive context of freeing Palestinians, but adds a negative context of boycotting a country. Mind you, the world will always be sensitive to antisemitism due to the holocaust. So yes, advocating a boycott of Israel DOES give people the impression of antisemitism (whether it was actually or not).

 

So - we have an Islamic woman in the US after 9/11 advocating for an Islamic population and the boycotting of a primarily Jewish population. In the US, that's not really going to be taken well (at that time especially). 

 

I'm also not seeing anything in that article provide any sort of data that people there were actually blacklisted and companies stopped hiring them (in the US). It seems like mostly a paranoia that it COULD impact them. It says she closed her own social media, didn't utilize linkedin, etc. all of those could impact her professionally. 

 

I'm only speaking in regards to in the US. There's no data in the article. Just beliefs. You can't state that as a fact. It's not.

[stevyy]

3 minutes ago, Headlock said:

So do you stand with Israel or not?

I believe that the state of Israel has a right to exist in accordance with international law - as much as I prefer a 2-state solution for this entire conflict. 

 

I do not stand for genocide, invading Gaza, killing civillians and displacing people. Even tho I am not supposed to have an opinion on the policies of the Israeli government due to historical responsibility, I do agree with everyone who called out said government and its actions against Gaza and Palestine. 

[dumbsparce]

19 minutes ago, State of Grace. said:

 

 

The comments under this post are crazy. Genuinely felt sick in my stomach reading them

 

 

This is straight out of a Black Mirror episode. No matter your stance, no decent human being would find joy in vacationing on a land so much blood was shed on

Edited October 15, 2023 by dumbsparce

[Gaia]

23 minutes ago, Harrier said:

So why do you "stand with Israel" if you view their response is disproportionate? These aren't sports teams. You can abhor Hamas' actions last weekend and still support an immediate end to Israel's genocidal actions against the Palestinian people. We are in the early stages of a crime against humanity and anyone who can't acknowledge that is deliberately avoiding reality.

As a very much middle man who isn't invested in either side, disproportion isn't always an issue.

 

Were the atomic bombs on Japan a proportionate response to Pearl Harbor?

 

2,403 US deaths vs approximately 200,000 Japan deaths

 

 

Yet, most Americans do not view it as some stain on our history but something that acted as the main catalyst to the end of WW2. And it was definitely not perceived negative immediately after the fact even if we know the death toll was horrific.

 

Quote

The immediate public response to news of the Manhattan Project and the atomic bombings of Japan, as filtered through the project's public relations efforts, was overwhelmingly favorable.  When asked simply "do you approve of the use of the atomic bomb?", 85 percent of Americans in one August 1945 poll replied "yes."  Few doubted that the atomic bomb had ended the war and saved American lives, and after almost four years of war, few retained much sympathy for Japan.

https://www.osti.gov/opennet/manhattan-project-history/Events/1945-present/public_reaction.htm

 

 

When you're at "War" you tend to lose a bit of your humanity. You could think "how could Americans approve of something that killed hundreds of thousands of civilians?"

 

It's the same situation now. That Hamas attack gave the Israeli goverment the justification they wanted to act barbaric towards Palestinians without western intervention. 

Edited October 15, 2023 by Gaia

[ClashAndBurn]

2 minutes ago, Gaia said:

This isn't exactly a like for like situation. That article is from the perspective of an Islamic female in the US not even 10 years after 9/11 (when someone reported her as a threat). 

 

She wasn't just advocating for Palestine she was advocating for boycotting Israel.

 

That's no longer just a positive context of freeing Palestinians, but adds a negative context of boycotting a country. Mind you, the world will always be sensitive to antisemitism due to the holocaust. So yes, advocating a boycott of Israel DOES give people the impression of antisemitism (whether it was actually or not).

 

So - we have an Islamic woman in the US after 9/11 advocating for an Islamic population and the boycotting of a primarily Jewish population. In the US, that's not really going to be taken well (at that time especially). 

 

I'm also not seeing anything in that article provide any sort of data that people there were actually blacklisted and companies stopped hiring them (in the US). It seems like mostly a paranoia that it COULD impact them. It says she closed her own social media, didn't utilize linkedin, etc. all of those could impact her professionally. 

 

I'm only speaking in regards to in the US. There's no data in the article. Just beliefs. You can't state that as a fact. It's not.

You can just say that non-violent and violent responses to apartheid and oppression are regarded as the same when it comes to Israel and could leave it at that. 10 years after 9/11 is irrelevant, since BDS laws are actively on the books in 35 states TODAY. "Criticism of Israel" is considered an anti-Semitic hate crime under the IHRA's definition of the term (being symbolically adopted by many states as well) TODAY.

 

We can also just ignore the parts where those profiled HAVE found it difficult to attain jobs and are regularly intimidated through interrogation by the FBI, but sure. Let's just believe that having a dossier on Canary Mission has nothing to do with any of that.

[Letemtalk]

Meanwhile at the Pro-Israel protest in New York City.

 

 

[Communion]

21 minutes ago, Gaia said:

This isn't exactly a like for like situation. That article is from the perspective of an Islamic female in the US not even 10 years after 9/11 (when someone reported her as a threat). 

 

She wasn't just advocating for Palestine she was advocating for boycotting Israel.

 

That's no longer just a positive context of freeing Palestinians, but adds a negative context of boycotting a country. Mind you, the world will always be sensitive to antisemitism due to the holocaust. So yes, advocating a boycott of Israel DOES give people the impression of antisemitism (whether it was actually or not).

 

So - we have an Islamic woman in the US after 9/11 advocating for an Islamic population and the boycotting of a primarily Jewish population. In the US, that's not really going to be taken well (at that time especially). 

 

I'm also not seeing anything in that article provide any sort of data that people there were actually blacklisted and companies stopped hiring them (in the US). It seems like mostly a paranoia that it COULD impact them. It says she closed her own social media, didn't utilize linkedin, etc. all of those could impact her professionally. 

 

I'm only speaking in regards to in the US. There's no data in the article. Just beliefs. You can't state that as a fact. It's not.

 

13 minutes ago, Gaia said:

As a very much middle man who isn't invested in either side, disproportion isn't always an issue.

 

Were the atomic bombs on Japan a proportionate response to Pearl Harbor?

 

2,403 US deaths vs approximately 200,000 Japan deaths

 

 

Yet, most Americans do not view it as some stain on our history but something that acted as the main catalyst to the end of WW2. And it was definitely not perceived negative immediately after the fact even if we know the death toll was horrific.

 

https://www.osti.gov/opennet/manhattan-project-history/Events/1945-present/public_reaction.htm

 

 

When you're at "War" you tend to lose a bit of your humanity. You could think "how could Americans approve of something that killed hundreds of thousands of civilians?"

 

It's the same situation now. That Hamas attack gave the Israeli goverment the justification they wanted to act barbaric towards Palestinians without western intervention. 

Are both of these both trying to use things widely considered objective failures or disproportional uses of power - either the response to 9/11 or Pearl Harbor - as somehow.. justification to Israel? 

 

"Welll... it *WAS* after 9/11!!". The American response to 9/11 is widely considered a failure both to the global community and even, in a rare moment of reflection, in its own borders. Michelle Obama could try hugging him for more PR, but GWB left office a public disgrace and as someone who turned America into a global embarrassment for a false war.

 

Aren't you the same user who said ISIS did 9/11??? 

Edited October 15, 2023 by Communion

[Scars]

1 hour ago, Gaia said:

This is not true (do you have a source?). The “blacklisting” I’ve seen called for was people saying the Israeli government was “solely responsible” for the Hamas attack instead of the actual terrorist group who did the attack.

What? it's true. Signing a letter that condems the actions of Israel or openly criticize a zionist individual can get your full name, face picture and whereabouts here: https://canarymission.org/

 

I personally know people that have made into the student list simply for calling for the end of ethnic cleansing in Palestine, which the Canary Mission believes to be an "antisemitic trope to demonize Israel". There are some sort of anti-BDS law placed in most states in US and bills proposed in many other western countries, like the UK, that directly target companies, small bussiness and even public bodies to associate themselves with the BDS movement, the concept of what it means to have an "BDS association" being very inconsistent to begin with. People will rightfully feel scared to express their views and face the risk of hurting their careers and safety.

 

I'm not trying to be rude or mean, but you should try to be more careful while discussing such a sensitive topic that directly impacts the lives of millions of people. You were the member that randomly said that "Middle Easteners didn't dissociate themselves enough from the actions of 9/11 and ISIS", despite the fact that the 9/11 attack was done by al-Qaeda, which didn't even operate in the Middle East.

 

Geopolitical topics are complex and no one knows everything, but fact-checking doesn't hurt, especially when you have openly admitted to hold a certain bias against pro-palestinian voices, even though you're not fully aware of the history of the Palestinian struggle.

Edited October 15, 2023 by Scars

[teresaguidice]

26 minutes ago, Gaia said:

As a very much middle man who isn't invested in either side, disproportion isn't always an issue.

 

Were the atomic bombs on Japan a proportionate response to Pearl Harbor?

 

2,403 US deaths vs approximately 200,000 Japan deaths

 

 

Yet, most Americans do not view it as some stain on our history but something that acted as the main catalyst to the end of WW2. And it was definitely not perceived negative immediately after the fact even if we know the death toll was horrific.

 

https://www.osti.gov/opennet/manhattan-project-history/Events/1945-present/public_reaction.htm

 

 

When you're at "War" you tend to lose a bit of your humanity. You could think "how could Americans approve of something that killed hundreds of thousands of civilians?"

 

It's the same situation now. That Hamas attack gave the Israeli goverment the justification they wanted to act barbaric towards Palestinians without western intervention. 

 

[Headlock]

33 minutes ago, stevyy said:

I
I do not stand for genocide, invading Gaza, killing civillians and displacing people. Even tho I am not supposed to have an opinion on the policies of the Israeli government due to historical responsibility, I do agree with everyone who called out said government and its actions against Gaza and Palestine. 

So then you don’t stand with Israel?

[Gaia]

11 minutes ago, Scars said:

What? it's true. Signing a letter that condems the actions of Israel or openly criticize a zionist individual can get your full name, face picture and whereabouts here: https://canarymission.org/

 

I personally know people that have made into the student list simply for calling for the end of ethnic cleansing in Palestine, which the Canary Mission believes to be an "antisemitic trope to demonize Israel". There are some sort of anti-BDS law placed in most states in US and bills proposed in many other western countries, like the UK, that directly target companies, small bussiness and even public bodies to assosiciate themselves with the BDS movement, the concept of what it means to have an "BDS association" being very inconsistent to begin with. People will rightfully feel scared to express their views and face the risk of hurting their careers and safety.

 

I'm not trying to be rude or mean, but you should try to be more careful while discussing such a sensitive topic that directly impacts the lives of millions of people. You were the member that randomly said that "Middle Easteners didn't dissociate themselves enough from the actions of 9/11 and ISIS", despite the fact that the 9/11 attack was done by al-Qaeda, which didn't even operate in the Middle East.

 

Geopolitical topics are complex and no one knows everything, but fact-checking doesn't hurt, especially when you have openly admitted to hold a certain bias against pro-palestinian voices, even though you're not fully aware of the history of the Palestinian struggle.

I'll speak on what I want to and how I want to but you're free to correct me if I'm wrong about something. I don't care about being corrected if I misspeak. But Al-qa'ida and ISIS are both islamic groups so just get bunched together in my brain. My bad

 

But do you have any concrete evidence anyone has been discriminated against or just he said she said?

Edited October 15, 2023 by Gaia