FOCK Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 2 hours ago, ClashAndBurn said: It took them THIS long to condemn stated intent to commit ethnic cleansing from Israeli government officials? What about the comments Netanyahu reportedly made in the Likid meeting a few days ago? Yall gonna ignore that one? MANIACAL 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClashAndBurn Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 27 minutes ago, ZIVERT said: Meanwhile, actual Israelis: Everyone hates Ben Gvir. Everyone. Gantz would continue the current trajectory that Netanyahu is moving in. The Israeli population as a whole wants Palestinian blood spilled and cleansed out of Gaza. Even before October 7, there was no interest in peace, and everyone knows it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thickorita Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 11 minutes ago, Dephira said: Considering that 72% of Palestinians believe that it was “correct” to actually murder over 1,000 Israelis in one day and take over 200 hostages, I’m not sure that a majority of Israelis being in favor of “encouraging voluntary immigration” paints the picture you would like painted https://www.timesofisrael.com/poll-shows-soaring-support-for-hamas-in-west-bank-as-90-say-abbas-should-resign/amp/ It's almost like starving, bombing, torturing and uprooting the vast majority of a population of over 2 million innocent people will turn them against you 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jjang Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Dephira said: Considering that 72% of Palestinians believe that it was “correct” to actually murder over 1,000 Israelis in one day and take over 200 hostages, I’m not sure that a majority of Israelis being in favor of “encouraging voluntary immigration” paints the picture you would like painted https://www.timesofisrael.com/poll-shows-soaring-support-for-hamas-in-west-bank-as-90-say-abbas-should-resign/amp/ You’d probably get similar results asking non-Palestinians as well. In either case, that’s not like 1% of the destruction inflicted on the Palestinian people and yet Israeli society supports that. if that doesn’t express how they view Palestinian lives as disposable then I don’t know what does. listen to your Israeli friend https://www.instagram.com/reel/C1hHcEqPT1-/?igsh=em5qZWg0bGpsbnlz Edited January 2 by Jjang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZIVERT Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 4 minutes ago, Jjang said: Actually the source is Israel’s Channel 14. I don’t know if you can read Hebrew but ‘Al-Mayadeen’ just translated the results. 68% - strongly support 15% - moderately support 8% - support but not strongly 9% - do not support Another Israeli newspaper (called Liberal) with a majority leftist/liberal audience also did a survey asking whether Israel should occupy and re-settle in Gaza and the majority still voted yes. 63% - yes 26% - no 11% - I don’t know Just for consistency’s sake, is desiring the people of a hostile neighboring country to go elsewhere/be forced to move (in the immediate aftermath of what is perceived to be a terrorist attack) bad or good? I don’t support the idea of moving Palestinians in Gaza away from their home, that’s bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aethereal Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 How many civilians have died in this bombing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Communion Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 (edited) 27 minutes ago, 45seconds said: You’re attempting to lump all of them together It's...a poll. They are lumped together because they all answered the same answer when asked the same question. Are you arguing the policy of the ethnic cleansing of Gaza is not popular in Israel? 27 minutes ago, 45seconds said: the bombing of Israeli people Do you mean by and not of? It's a bit weird to obscure the basic fact that the 21,000 Palestinians killed by Israel in 80 days dwarfs the 700 Israelis killed on and since 10/07. Who do you believe is bombing whom? Edited January 2 by Communion 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jjang Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 2 minutes ago, ZIVERT said: Just for consistency’s sake, is desiring the people of a hostile neighboring country to go elsewhere/be forced to move (in the immediate aftermath of what is perceived to be a terrorist attack) bad or good? I don’t support the idea of moving Palestinians in Gaza away from their home, that’s bad. locking helpless people in an open air prison for 20 years away from the rest of society (which is a war crime, but that means nothing apparently) and then using their retaliation (by the same militia you’ve helped fund to power for years) as a pretext for a disgustingly obvious genocidal mass ethnic cleansing campaign is bad, yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZIVERT Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 8 minutes ago, State of Grace. said: Of course, there are people in Israel who are against the war crimes happening there but the majority of Israelis are genocidal freaks. Manyyyyy of them have blood on their hands as well because Israel made IDF service mandatory. So they're barely even "civilians". The Israeli "liberals" like the ones listed above might oppose Bibi and his government but they're still 100% pro-apartheid and pro-occupation. That's the "normal" state there for all parties from left to right wing. All of the parties are in agreement when it comes to this. Israel is a genocidal society and liberal zionists are still...zionists at the end of the day. Can you quickly list all the non-Arab political parties in Israel that oppose the occupation and genocide? Or I'll do it for you: Meretz. ONE party. And they quite literally couldn't even garner enough votes to get a seat in the Knesset. You're just being purposefully dense if you still believe that a liberal government wouldn't have been murdering and carpet-bombing Gazans too. Shocker, running a political party that’s built on the idea of dismantling the state that voters live in is not popular. Meanwhile, Mansour Abbas’ Ra’am - United Arab List (a self described conservative, religious party) was part of the last coalition in the Knesset before Netanyahu and his radicals took over. Like Meretz, Ra’am also advocates for a two state solution, with East Jerusalem as the capital of the Palestinian state. Can more be done to get Arab/Palestinian citizens of Israel to vote? Absolutely. But you are presenting Meretz as the only option, when a) it isn’t and b) the voter base they’re trying to cater to overwhelming rejects them and their platform. Real problems need realistic solutions, not ideology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Specter Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 Tears. Imagine being largely funded by American taxpayer money that could instead go towards (*gestures broadly at a map of the USA*) anywhere & anything else and yet being able to lash the people bankrolling your genocide this boldly Were Israel not under the protection of the West TM, a country like this would get the entire world's media machines riled up 24/7 – I've been pretty critical of certain nations in the past, but none of them really rival the sheer audacity and unmitigated murderous conviction with which the only "democracy in the Middle East" operates. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZIVERT Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 6 minutes ago, Jjang said: locking helpless people in an open air prison for 20 years away from the rest of society (which is a war crime, but that means nothing apparently) and then using their retaliation (by the same militia you’ve helped fund to power for years) as a pretext for a disgustingly obvious genocidal mass ethnic cleansing campaign is bad, yes. The question: Is ethnic cleansing bad? The answer: Ethnic cleansing is only bad when the people I want to ethnically cleanse have the capability to do it if they wanted 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jjang Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 Just now, ZIVERT said: The question: Is ethnic cleansing bad? The answer: Ethnic cleansing is only bad when the people I want to ethnically cleanse have the capability to do it if they wanted What I said is very clear. I’m sorry you couldn’t twist the narrative. You were trying to lure me into a predictable trap and that didn’t work for you and now you’re mad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jjang Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 (edited) 21 minutes ago, ZIVERT said: Shocker, running a political party that’s built on the idea of dismantling the state that voters live in is not popular. Meanwhile, Mansour Abbas’ Ra’am - United Arab List (a self described conservative, religious party) was part of the last coalition in the Knesset before Netanyahu and his radicals took over. Like Meretz, Ra’am also advocates for a two state solution, with East Jerusalem as the capital of the Palestinian state. Can more be done to get Arab/Palestinian citizens of Israel to vote? Absolutely. But you are presenting Meretz as the only option, when a) it isn’t and b) the voter base they’re trying to cater to overwhelming rejects them and their platform. Real problems need realistic solutions, not ideology. Sami Abu Shehadeh is a prominent figure amongst Palestinian Israeli youth. His party (Balad - which doesn’t believe in a Jewish state) was dissolved after he was basically sold out by the other coalition parties. in 2022 Balad received 140k votes. And that’s with an extremely low Arab vote rate (cause they don’t have trust in the system or that their votes can inflict real change) and that was like the 4th election in 2 years. Edited January 2 by Jjang 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZIVERT Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 Just now, Jjang said: What I said is very clear. I’m sorry you couldn’t twist the narrative. You were trying to lure me into a predictable trap and that didn’t work for you and now you’re mad I would define being mad as camping out on a pop forum to post conspiracy theories about evil Israeli Jews for 88 days. Thank God for the Iron Dome, or else you might not be able to post so regularly about the genocidal Israeli Jews from the comfort of Haifa. Anyways, I already knew what your answer would be before you posted it. There’s nothing to be mad over 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jjang Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 (edited) 7 minutes ago, ZIVERT said: I would define being mad as camping out on a pop forum to post conspiracy theories about evil Israeli Jews for 88 days. Thank God for the Iron Dome, or else you might not be able to post so regularly about the genocidal Israeli Jews from the comfort of Haifa. Anyways, I already knew what your answer would be before you posted it. There’s nothing to be mad over sounding even more mad and unhinged now. all it took is stating reality to you Edited January 3 by Jjang 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jessie Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 Not the justification of ethnic cleansing and genocide being “if we don’t do it them, they will do it to us.” Paranoid, blood thirsty freaks. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vermillion Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZIVERT Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Jjang said: sounding even more mad and unhinged now. all it took is stating reality to you OT: Ben Gvir should rot! Edited January 3 by ZIVERT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jjang Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 2 minutes ago, ZIVERT said: OT: Ben Gvir should rot! when “” is the best you can pull off after justifying a genocide 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Communion Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 (edited) Not the mocking of a Palestinian user for not wanting to live under occupation by someone who has ALSO themselves argued that Ukrainians (rightfully!) will not stop fighting until even Crimea is free of Russians despite a decade or so passing by. At what point did Israel get to claim they're here to stay that then also applies to other conflicts? Genuinely shocking how people can't realize they're looking at their own future in the eyes when dehumanizing Palestinians. The irrational hatred of Palestinians by ATRL's non-Jewish Zionists ironically showcasing just how poorly America and the Western world has misunderstood what Israel represents to much of the Global South and those within the imperial core forced to recognize the blatant violence. That literally anyone who is not a Raytheon sales rep sees the struggles of Palestinians and Ukrainians as analogous (and thus it takes a glaring lack of self-awareness or deep white supremacist hatred of Arabs to somehow be pro-Ukrainian yet also pro-Israel). That the bonafides America claims as somehow a bastion of democracy, freedom, and human rights in the world collapse under the weight from the brazen contradictions in its unquestionable support for Israel. Assad is a monster who used chemical weapons on his people? Well thank god America can criticize h- oh ****, here are a bunch of tweets of Israelis happily sharing videos of Palestinian children crying trying to wash the burning white phosphorus off of their skin. Racism is normalized in China and Muslim minorities are culturally repressed? Thank god America values human r- oh ****, here is a video of one of the leading ministers in Israel calling Muslims and Arabs their ancestral enemies and that Israel will not rest until the IDF claims back all of Greater Israel, including Jordan & Lebanon. Iran is a theocracy that subjugates women through the usage of violence? Thank god America is here as a fighter for wom- oh ****, here is a state department whistleblower saying Israel literally shut down a US watchdog when the US asked the Israeli government about a tip about child rape occurring in Israeli prisons. Russia meddled in the US election by trying to sway public opinion on social media? Thank god the US is well prepared to fend off foreign infl- oh ****, CNN headline just announced reading "AIPAC ANNOUNCES 100 MILLION IN NEW FUNDING VOWING TO PRIMARY EVERY WOMAN OF COLOR MEMBER OF THE SQUAD!" Israel's existence undermines America's standing in the world. Joe Biden is single-handedly tanking his presidency via his unconditional support for Israel. There is no future in which the Western world can claim it values human rights for as long as it allows the Israeli settler state to continue to exist via unconditional and constant economic and military support. The American people paid for the bombs to kill 21,000 people and counting. Edited January 3 by Communion 2 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harriser Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 7 hours ago, ClashAndBurn said: That’s because the vast majority of Israelis ARE genocidal maniacs, just like how the vast majority of Americans were after 9/11. The difference is that the majority of Israeli society have served in the IDF and will have had blood on their hands already from shooting into Gaza or protecting illegal settlements in the West Bank. The only actual civilians in Israel are those who are younger than military age or those who’ve refused to enlist (which you could probably count those on one hand) Israelis nearly unanimously wanting Gaza to be ethnically cleansed should be of concern to you rather than push you into engage in denial of reality. I don't deny the reality of Israeli bloodlust following Oct 7th - I instead fight against the reason for posting and spreading it, which in the case of Hamas supporting members, is to justify Oct 7th and more violence of that nature. But anyone with any understanding of history knows it is normal in wartime for a populace to be emotional and angry at their enemies. This does not mean that we should undermine their civillian status, as members continuously do so. International law exists for a reason - it's not WW2 anymore. There are polls showing massive Palestinian support for violence and/or for Hamas. These are often used to justify the genocide in Gaza. This is unacceptable and members can see that. Yet they are happy to dehumanize Israeli Jews in the same manner, because its about tribalism and not about principles. Again, everything I argue here is about fighting against narratives that contribute to violence. I desperately want ceasefire. The left at the moment seems decidedly unsure and all over the place aboit if it actually wants ceasefire and that is... scary. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bad guy Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 Imagine if the national security advisor from Russia, China, or Iran spoke about America and the President this way. The military officials of the WH would be calling for regime change. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Communion Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Harrier said: But anyone with any understanding of history knows it is normal in wartime for a populace to be emotional and angry at their enemies. You mean like... the kind of anger to then launch after 5 years of increased brutality a counter-insurgency that kills 700 people? It's odd you seem able to disassociate the Israeli state apparatus from the people its comprised of yet continually frame resentment to being occupied and wanting the abolishing of Israel by Palestinians as *the* driving force of violence (and not Israel's existence). I think you're constantly getting pushback because you're ironically refusing to address within reality. 700 people killed is dwarfed by 21000. Theoretical conspiracies that frame criticisms of normalized apartheid as demonizing of Israeli Jews to then lead to their mass slaughter is dwarfed by the Israeli state and the majority of its citizens actively participating in the demonizing of Palestinians to justify their mass slaughter. The theoretical suffering of Gazans under Hamas is dwarfed by the mass extinction of them under Israel. What you "worry" *might* happen to Israelis if they were denied their own (ethno)-state is.. literally happening to Palestinians. Edited January 3 by Communion 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aethereal Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 In my experience with translating comments, Israeli people have a very similar mentality to right-wing Evangelical Christians. Some could argue that Israelis are more right-wing than White Evangelical Republican but I would disagree with that as Israel has been in conflict for decades so certain situations will trigger nationalists to say more nasty stuff online compared to white right-wing Christians (even the white right-wing bible belt republicans are not that far away seeing some of their tweets and comments either way). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harriser Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 50 minutes ago, Communion said: Not the mocking of a Palestinian user for not wanting to live under occupation by someone who has ALSO themselves argued that Ukrainians (rightfully!) will not stop fighting until even Crimea is free of Russians despite a decade or so passing by. At what point did Israel get to claim they're here to stay that then also applies to other conflicts? Genuinely shocking how people can't realize they're looking at their own future in the eyes when dehumanizing Palestinians. The irrational hatred of Palestinians by ATRL's non-Jewish Zionists ironically showcasing just how poorly America and the Western world has misunderstood what Israel represents to much of the Global South and those within the imperial core forced to recognize the blatant violence. That literally anyone who is not a Raytheon sales rep sees the struggles of Palestinians and Ukrainians as analogous (and thus it takes a glaring lack of self-awareness or deep white supremacist hatred of Arabs to somehow be pro-Ukrainian yet also pro-Israel). That the bonafides America claims as somehow a bastion of democracy, freedom, and human rights in the world collapse under the weight from the brazen contradictions in its unquestionable support for Israel. Assad is a monster who used chemical weapons on his people? Well thank god America can criticize h- oh ****, here are a bunch of tweets of Israelis happily sharing videos of Palestinian children crying trying to wash the burning white phosphorus off of their skin. Racism is normalized in China and Muslim minorities are culturally repressed? Thank god America values human r- oh ****, here is a video of one of the leading ministers in Israel calling Muslims and Arabs their ancestral enemies and that Israel will not rest until the IDF claims back all of Greater Israel, including Jordan & Lebanon. Iran is a theocracy that subjugates women through the usage of violence? Thank god America is here as a fighter for wom- oh ****, here is a state department whistleblower saying Israel literally shut down a US watchdog when the US asked the Israeli government about a tip about child rape occurring in Israeli prisons. Russia meddled in the US election by trying to sway public opinion on social media? Thank god the US is well prepared to fend off foreign infl- oh ****, CNN headline just announced reading "AIPAC ANNOUNCES 100 MILLION IN NEW FUNDING VOWING TO PRIMARY EVERY WOMAN OF COLOR MEMBER OF THE SQUAD!" Israel's existence undermines America's standing in the world. Joe Biden is single-handedly tanking his presidency via his unconditional support for Israel. There is no future in which the Western world can claim it values human rights for as long as it allows the Israeli settler state to continue to exist via unconditional and constant economic and military support. The American people paid for the bombs to kill 21,000 people and counting. I actually agree with almost all of this post, particularly your points about Biden sabotaging his presidency and Israel undermining Western legitimacy through its brutality. I am happy that pretty much all Western countries except for the United States now support ceasefire, and I am pleased that my country told Israel to excercise restraint literally on day 1. However, I am certain that Israel would continue to exist even if America cut off its aid. It is ultimately propped up not by American aid dollars but instead by the drive to survive of its core Israeli Jewish population. Short of violence, I don't think it is within the West's ability to end the state of Israel. I do think it could force a two state solution, though, through sanctions & pressure and I would support those efforts. This is with the caveat, though, that the withdrawal of Western support cannot be taken as a greenlight for military aggression against Israel. To reply to the other post - I am very much aware of these numbers and the scale of Palestinian suffering. What you and others miss about my arguments is that I am fighting against narrarives in here that I believe are contributing to the genocide by propping up Hamas. It's not more complicated than that. Nationalism is an obstacle to descalation. To use an unwieldy/stereotypial example, I kind of see it as like an outsider urging the German people to push the Nazis to surrender power in 1945 in order to save lives and prevent **** like Dresden. The way the allies conducted themselves, while normal in that pre-UN historical context, is analogous to Israel's brutality. If Palestinian lives are our chief concern, then surely Hamas' abdication should be welcomed by the left? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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