ClashAndBurn Posted January 1 Share Posted January 1 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Communion Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harrier Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 20 hours ago, ClashAndBurn said: Really interesting how a certain someone always reacts negatively whenever they're shown evidence of how genocidal Israeli society is as a whole I react negatively because it is framing used to justify dangerous rhetoric that strips people of their civillian status, as it is when Israelis attempt to villify Gazans. If you believe that regular Israelis are genocidal maniacs then it follows from that violence against them is not only necessary but is also justified. I am - and have always been - coming from the position of immediately ending this violence at all costs. It is much easier for users to attempt to frame me as some hidden zionist, than to face the reality that their worldview is a violent one that is continuing to contribute to the suffering of Gazans through its propping up of Hamas. There in fact are alternative visions of free Palestine that do not involve hundreds of dead Israelis and tens of thousands of dead Palestinians. It is not Hamas or nothing, and it never should have become that for the left. If any member is against Hamas' relinquishing of Gaza as in the rumoured Egyptian permanent ceasfire plan (which some members seem to be) they value Palestinian lives less than nationalistic goals. They would accept more dead Gazans in order to not give Israel a "win" - its pure tribalistic emotion. It is a rabidly violent worldview that makes martrys of children, and is morally indefensible. My views on where this should go are largely aligned with Egypt and Jordan, who have been the most sane voices in this recent escalation and in general in recent decades. They have taken the path of peace by accepting Israel's existence; they lost the wars in the 20th century, and war over land cannot go on forever. And their people have been better for it. Spoiler For the record, I support this resolution in Ukraine as well. Ukrainian territorial integrity is simply not worth permanent war. At some point, Ukrainians must accept the loss of at least Crimea, if not more. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FOCK Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 9 minutes ago, Harrier said: I react negatively because it is framing used to justify dangerous rhetoric that strips people of their civillian status, as it is when Israelis attempt to villify Gazans. If you believe that regular Israelis are genocidal maniacs then it follows from that violence against them is not only necessary but is also justified. I am - and have always been - coming from the position of immediately ending this violence at all costs. It is much easier for users to attempt to frame me as some hidden zionist, than to face the reality that their worldview is a violent one that is continuing to contribute to the suffering of Gazans through its propping up of Hamas. There in fact are alternative visions of free Palestine that do not involve hundreds of dead Israelis and tens of thousands of dead Palestinians. It is not Hamas or nothing, and it never should have become that for the left. If any member is against Hamas' immediate surrender as in the Egyptian ceasfire plan (which some members seem to be) they value Palestinian lives less than nationalistic goals. They would accept more dead Gazans in order to not give Israel a "win" - its pure tribalistic emotion. That is a pro-violence worldview thay makes martrys of children, and is morally indefensible. Israel strips their own people of civilian status by making IDF service mandatory for all + weaponising illegal settlers on Palestinian territory. If you’re still under the belief that Israel’s violence ends with Hamas “surrendering”, you’re clueless and haven’t been paying attention. Hamas ends with the end of the occupation. It is their stated goal. They’ve even bargained to free much more popular & secular-based politicians, with the understanding that they should not continue to “lead”, but rather restore the actually capable, progressive & visionary leaders that Israel imprisoned. This painting of Hamas as unreasonable savages, or Islamic fundamentalists is an Israel pushed propagandistic perversion. Their faith is what has kept them more principled than Israeli and Western leaders & combatants throughout this conflict, actually. Gazan’s are a highly educated populace with 96% literacy rate. They value education over everything. They are doctors, lawyers, journalists, nurses, engineers etc. Recently there was a horrific case of Israel blowing off the legs of a female Palestinian Tae Kwon Do champion. Hamas is not ISIS, nor have they governed as such, despite all Israel has done to hope to make it so. 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmittenCake Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FOCK Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 1 minute ago, SmittenCake said: How this is handled will be an illuminating moment for humanity. Their hubris has allowed them to spew such vile rhetoric so proudly, that they’ve undeniably incriminated themselves through their speech alone. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harrier Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 20 minutes ago, FOCK said: Israel strips their own people of civilian status by making IDF service mandatory for all + weaponising illegal settlers on Palestinian territory. If you’re still under the belief that Israel’s violence ends with Hamas “surrendering”, you’re clueless and haven’t been paying attention. Hamas ends with the end of the occupation. It is their stated goal. They’ve even bargained to free much more popular & secular-based politicians, with the understanding that they should not continue to “lead”, but rather restore the actually capable, progressive & visionary leaders that Israel imprisoned. This painting of Hamas as unreasonable savages, or Islamic fundamentalists is an Israel pushed propagandistic perversion. Their faith is what has kept them more principled than Israeli and Western leaders & combatants throughout this conflict, actually. Gazan’s are a highly educated populace with 96% literacy rate. They value education over everything. They are doctors, lawyers, journalists, nurses, engineers etc. Recently there was a horrific case of Israel blowing off the legs of a female Palestinian Tae Kwon Do champion. Hamas is not ISIS, nor have they governed as such, despite all Israel has done to hope to make it so. There's not much I can really say to you sis other than that you seem to be the member that has drunk the Hamas kool aid the most. To the point where we are now attempting to argue that they are not an Islamic fundamentalist organistion - a position Hamas members would disagree with you on - and that their violence is somehow principled. Whatever that means. Nevermind the many credible accounts of rape, and footage of the brutality and cold blooded murder from Oct 7th. Your view is extremely dangerous in that you make Palestinians and their freedom inseperable from Hamas, a group that is hated by its Arab neighbours and that has consistenly put Gazans at risk. It has actively made their lives worse for the last 16-17 years, and cracked down on all dissent with violence and imprisonment. Even other Hamas apologists in this thread speak of it more as a lesser evil or an unfortunate group that leftists have to work with for the greater good, rather than this full apolgia whitewashing mess. I understand Israel's actions are monstrous, but that doesn't mean we need to go full tribalism and attempt to rehabilitate far right Islamic militant groups 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FOCK Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 (edited) 28 minutes ago, Harrier said: There's not much I can really say to you sis other than that you seem to be the member that has drunk the Hamas kool aid the most. To the point where we are now attempting to argue that they are not an Islamic fundamentalist organistion - a position Hamas members would disagree with you on - and that their violence is somehow principled. Whatever that means. Nevermind the many credible accounts of rape, and footage of the brutality and cold blooded murder from Oct 7th. Your worldview is extremely dangerous in that you make Palestinians and their freedom inseperable from Hamas, a group that is hated by its Arab neighbours and that has consistenly put Gazans at risk. It has actively made their lives worse for the last 16-17 years, and cracked down on all dissent with violence and imprisonment. Even other Hamas apologists in this thread speak of it more as a lesser evil or an unfortunate group that leftists have to work with for the greatee good, rather than this full apolgia whitewashing mess. Zero credible accounts of rape. It’s actually laughable to suggest that they spent 2 years on a highly strategised ambush for political prisoners & soldier targets, were surprised that an unplanned for festival was there, had to stock up on as much food as they could to take back to feed the prisoners with, and somewhere amidst the chaos, fire and tank shelling, in the mere 6 hour ordeal, they took a detour to gang rape out in the open, just for evil funsies. Do you hear yourself? And you can’t have it both ways. Are they Islamic fundamentalists? In which case, touching a woman is forbidden, let alone rape. What we do have, is an account of a hostage recounting how a Hamas member explained to her they treat their women with respect, and then proceeding to place a towel around his hand for a game of arm wrestling, specifically so he didn’t touch her. Lmfao. And yes, they have been more principled, by your own standards. Their kill ratio on October 7th of civilians to soldiers, is miles and above Israel’s supposedly, highly skilled, funded & equipped military, with the most advanced surveillance & target technology on earth. So who’s more of the cold blooded killer here? The survivors of the rave are literally suing the Israeli government right now, because of their callousness. It is you that has drank the kool aid. Or maybe, you just enjoy the taste of the bull ish you so readily swallow by a State that has proven itself time and time again, to lie and distort without shame. Edited January 2 by FOCK 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harrier Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 26 minutes ago, FOCK said: Zero credible accounts of rape. And you can’t have it both ways. Are they Islamic fundamentalists? In which case, touching a woman is forbidden, let alone rape. Idiot. What we do have, is an account of a hostage recounting how a Hamas member explained to her they treat their women with respect, and then proceeding to place a towel around his hand for a game of arm wrestling, specifically so he didn’t touch her. Lmfao. And yes, they have been more principled, by your own standards. Their kill ratio on October 7th of civilians to soldiers, is miles and above Israel’s supposedly, highly skilled, funded & equipped military, with the most advanced surveillance & target technology on earth. So who’s more of the cold blooded killer here? The survivors of the rave are literally suing the Israeli government right now, because of their callousness. It is you that has drank the kool aid. Or maybe, you just enjoy the taste of the bull ish you so readily swallow by a State that has proven itself time and time again, to lie and distort without shame. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/28/world/middleeast/oct-7-attacks-hamas-israel-sexual-violence.html Though I'm sure this kind of credible reporting is inconvenient for your attempts to whitewash Hamas, so you'll dismiss it out of hand due to it being an American source. Additionally, are we now attempting to argue now that the militants of Islamic fundamentalist organisations never rape? Seriously? But I thought you argued they werent that... so which is it? On top of the account from the released hostages you accurately describe, we now also have harrowing accounts from other hostages who had a horrendous experience in Gaza. What has become clear is that the hostages are having very different experiences depending on who their captors in Gaza are, and where they've been taken. Some are luckier than others. Yet you continually cherry pick examples and ignore the others - to push your simple black and white narrarive that Hamas are principled men of faith in comparison to the bloodthirsty West That they'll hand over power to progressive voices once Palestine is liberated The naiveity is staggering The knots you have to twist yourself into, and the blatant ignoring of realities that don't match your pre-existing view, to be a Hamas apologist. The q-anon left indeed 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FOCK Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Harrier said: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/28/world/middleeast/oct-7-attacks-hamas-israel-sexual-violence.html Though I'm sure this kind of credible reporting is inconvenient for your attempts to whitewash Hamas, so you'll dismiss it out of hand due to it being an American source. Additionally, are we now attempting to argue now that the militants of Islamic fundamentalist organisations never rape? Seriously? But I thought you argued they werent that... so which is it? On top of the account from the released hostages you accurately describe, we now also have harrowing accounts from other hostages who had a horrendous experience in Gaza. What has become clear is that the hostages are having very different experiences depending on who their captors in Gaza are, and where they've been taken. Some are luckier than others. Yet you continually cherry pick examples and ignore the others - to push your simple black and white narrarive that Hamas are principled men of faith in comparison to the bloodthirsty West The knots you have to twist yourself into, and the blatant ignoring of realities that don't match your pre-existing view, to be a Hamas apologist. The q-anon left indeed There are no credible or verified accounts in that article. There have been zero credibly verified accounts of rape. Not just rape, but “MASS RAPE!” a “A RAPE RAMPAGE!” and not one thing has been produced as evidence. Do you know what credible means? Here he is, bless his smile. It’s hardly “a knot” to deal with facts. You sir, are a pretzel of narratives. Edited January 2 by FOCK 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClashAndBurn Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 1 hour ago, Harrier said: I react negatively because it is framing used to justify dangerous rhetoric that strips people of their civillian status, as it is when Israelis attempt to villify Gazans. If you believe that regular Israelis are genocidal maniacs then it follows from that violence against them is not only necessary but is also justified. That’s because the vast majority of Israelis ARE genocidal maniacs, just like how the vast majority of Americans were after 9/11. The difference is that the majority of Israeli society have served in the IDF and will have had blood on their hands already from shooting into Gaza or protecting illegal settlements in the West Bank. The only actual civilians in Israel are those who are younger than military age or those who’ve refused to enlist (which you could probably count those on one hand) Israelis nearly unanimously wanting Gaza to be ethnically cleansed should be of concern to you rather than push you into engage in denial of reality. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pirateking Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 (edited) This whole situation has changed me so much eventhough Im not directly affected by the gen*cide. I realized who runs the world. I realized human rights dont apply to everybody. I realized freedom of speech and democracy are allowed only if it fits the goverments agenda. I realized so many celebrities and countries are fake selfish a$$ b*tches. I dropped so many celebrities, media outlets and brands over this. My world wont be the same after October 2023. I truly lived an illusion :( Edited January 2 by pirateking Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i spit on haters Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 People still pushing the 'mass rape' and '40 beheaded babies' lie, I see. It's become quite clear to me that these same people want so badly for this to be true as to make the killing of Palestinians justified. An actual rape did occur on a 13 year old child in the hands of the IDF. That has been proven. As well as the sexual assault by again, shocking, the IDF who have assaulted many Palestinian women who they have kept as prisoners, along with children, long before Oct. 7th. Oct 7th isn't the "9/11" they're still making it out to be for intentional sympathy and support. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jjang Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 (edited) we see them on ATRL now too https://www.instagram.com/reel/C1k63Xyr9CD/?igsh=MXZ4OHUwdW96MGc2Mg== Edited January 2 by Jjang 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i spit on haters Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 14 minutes ago, ClashAndBurn said: That’s because the vast majority of Israelis ARE genocidal maniacs, just like how the vast majority of Americans were after 9/11. The difference is that the majority of Israeli society have served in the IDF and will have had blood on their hands already from shooting into Gaza or protecting illegal settlements in the West Bank. The only actual civilians in Israel are those who are younger than military age or those who’ve refused to enlist (which you could probably count those on one hand) Israelis nearly unanimously wanting Gaza to be ethnically cleansed should be of concern to you rather than push you into engage in denial of reality. Agreed with everything you said but to be fair, the refusal to join the IDF has been increasing year by year. And they list the genocide being inflicted on Palestinians as one of the main reasons why they're not joining the military. Which is great but also crazy how they're actually being jailed for it. It's not even presented as a choice for them. Many are even being imprisoned for months and some even years. It's either join us in committing ethic-cleansing or have your basic rights stripped from you and rot in a jail cell. The refusal to join the IDF will only increase even more so now with young Israelis. Sadly, they'll be jailed. Some even ostracized from family and friends for not submitting to their country's tyrannical and profoundly egregious ways of governing. And I hope you aren't voting for Biden. I'm sure you regret doing so now. I knew I ultimately would which is one of MANY reasons why I voted green party. It would be no different under Trump. The two are one and the same underneath the surface. Many see that now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luckitty Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 (edited) do lebanon and syria "have the right to defend themselves"? Edited January 2 by Luckitty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmittenCake Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visions Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 They’ll just use ol’ reliable “HAMAS IS THERE” to justify killing civilians in countries all around them. RIP to those lost. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BorderBoy Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 They just can't help it but bomb someone somewhere. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pirateking Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 Are they now fighting lebanese and syrian hospitals and children? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BorderBoy Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 6 minutes ago, SmittenCake said: I hope this actually does something somehow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BorderBoy Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 2 minutes ago, pirateking said: Are they now fighting lebanese and syrian hospitals and children? That's IF they admit bombing Syria and Lebanon. Usually it goes by 'people bomb themselves.' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pirateking Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 Just now, BorderBoy said: That's IF they admit bombing Syria and Lebanon. Usually it goes by 'people bomb themselves.' I wouldnt be surprised in the slightest to read this headline in western media outlets...they just cant stop making sh*t up to keep up their narrative Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luckitty Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 1 minute ago, BorderBoy said: That's IF they admit bombing Syria and Lebanon. Usually it goes by 'people bomb themselves.' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BorderBoy Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 Just now, pirateking said: I wouldnt be surprised in the slightest to read this headline in western media outlets...they just cant stop making sh*t up to keep up their narrative With a million examples of this, don't be surprised at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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