news Israel-Palestine Conflict 2023/ 2024 Mega Thread

[Kassi]

4 hours ago, Communion said:

 

I'm sorry but this is grossly a misappropriation of identity politics. 

 

Countless people who went through the Rwandan genocide, in addition to thousands of genocide scholars consider Israel's actions against Palestinians to be genocide.

 

Let alone - again - the metrics of population you were are not how genocide is defined, and if it were, this:

 

And this:

 

Tell very similar stories. 

By the UN definition, Hamas is a genocidal organisation. Its founding charter, published in 1988, explicitly commits it to obliterating Israel. Article 7 states that “The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and kill them”. Article 13 rejects any compromise, or peace, until Israel is destroyed. Hamas fighters who burst into Israel on October 7th and killed more than 1,400 Israelis were carrying out the letter of their genocidal law.
 

Israel, by contrast, does not meet the test of genocide. There is little evidence that Israel, like Hamas, “intends” to destroy an ethnic group—the Palestinians. Israel does want to destroy Hamas, a militant group, and is prepared to inflict civilian casualties in doing so. And while some Israeli extremists might want to eradicate the Palestinians, that is not a government policy.

 

The total Palestinian casualties from conflicts and operations spanning from 1948 to 2023 (75 years) are estimated to be around 80,000 - 100,000. Meanwhile, the Darfur conflict, which lasted 3 years, led to significant civilian casualties and displacement with estimates of around 300,000 deaths. Yet, the 2005 UN Commission's report concluded that the Government of Sudan had not pursued a policy of genocide. The situation was characterized more by counter-insurgency warfare than by the intent to annihilate a specific group. 
 

The dip in the chart you posted reflects the displacement of Palestinians following the 1948 Arab-Israeli war, where, you guessed it, five Arab countries attempted to carry out genocide on the newly formed state of Israel.

 

 

 

[Jjang]

"five Arab countries attack poor newly formed Israel" 

 

meanwhile Israeli soldiers: 

 

Israeli historians: 

Quote

 

Morris re-examines the arguments he published years before regarding Jewish hopes to rid Jewish-controlled Palestine of Arabs. In "Revisiting the Palestinian exodus of 1948," Morris uses newly available documents from the Israeli archives to support his older arguments that "the refugee problem was caused by attacks by Jewish forces on Arab villages and towns and by the inhabitants' fear of such attacks, compounded by expulsions, atrocities, and rumors of atrocities--and by the crucial Israeli Cabinet decision in June 1948 to bar a refugee return" (p. 38). In fact, the newly obtained archival information shows that more Jewish atrocities had taken place than Morris had previously believed, such as those al-Husayniyya and Burayr. This chapter is particularly important because so much of Morris's earlier assessments of Israeli expulsions were viciously attacked and rebuked. The latest documents from the Israeli archives, however, seem to validate Morris's thesis that Jewish military actions were the primary cause of the Palestinian refugee problem up to the Israeli government's decision to disallow their return.

 

A prevailing myth in Israel and the United States is that Arabs joined forces, sending massive waves of holy warriors to destroy everything Jewish. The reality was that there never was a unified, collective, monolithic Arab army. Avi Shlaim points out many of the problems with that myth. Arab nations decided to go to war in Palestine for very different reasons and at very different times. There were actually two Arab blocs, the Hashemite and the non-Hashemite. Although Abdullah, King of Jordan, was considered to be titular head of the Arab army, in reality no Arab commander was willing to allow a commander of a differing nationality to command and control his troops.

 

Edited December 28, 2023 by Jjang

[State of Grace.]

Israeli soldiers & politicians (from left to right, no exceptions): *openly & blatantly admitting to war crimes, ethnic cleansing, and genocide*

 

 

Miss Kassy: "There is little evidence that Israel intends to destroy Palestinians uwu! That's not what the govt wants!"

 

***** go to brunch 

Edited December 28, 2023 by State of Grace.

[State of Grace.]

On today's episode of the "most moral army in the world" 🥰🥰🥰🥰

 

 

[Mr. Mendes]

22 hours ago, Kassi said:

Israel was not in Gaza when Hamas invaded Israel on Oct 7th. 

 

If the same conflict has been raging on for 50+ years despite Israel’s superior military capabilities, what exactly does that tell you about Israel’s “genocidal” intent? Why an Iron Dome instead of an Iron Sword? Why summits, accords, and relinquishment of territory whenever peace has been an option?

 

You all literally invent ahistorical narratives that obfuscate the security concerns of Israeli citizens in service of a broader ideological agenda.

Oh so you just genuinely haven't got the faintest idea about what you're talking about, got it. I knew a lot of the ATRL zionists were supremely uneducated on this matter, but you've certainly proven to be the most persistent in continuing to spout off whatever information you run across in these propaganda campaigns as absolute fact. Truly, this is one of the most embarrassing things I've seen happen on this site, and that's really saying something. 

 

You don't have a bit of interest or curiosity in learning anything, you're just in here going full on Nazi and applauding a genocide. 

[Jjang]

39 minutes ago, State of Grace. said:

On today's episode of the "most moral army in the world" 🥰🥰🥰🥰

 

 

I mean he’s probably just “joking” but that doesn’t make it any better (or completely untrue). 

 

And he doesn’t believe he’s being heinously racist while spitting such words out of his mouth. 

 

There’s even a running popular joke between Israelis that one of the only few Arabic sentences they learned in the army is “wakef wakef wla batokhak” which translates to “stop stop or else I’ll shoot you” at illegal military checkpoints. They joke about stuff like this in their day to day lives and still continue to think they’re a beacon of freedom in the middle east. 

 

a deranged society that has become a victim of its own fascist military system. 

Edited December 28, 2023 by Jjang

[Jjang]

Zionists' biggest enemy is common sense 

 

 

[Kassi]

7 hours ago, Jjang said:

"five Arab countries attack poor newly formed Israel" 

 

Israeli historians: 

Quote

 

Morris re-examines the arguments he published years before regarding Jewish hopes to rid Jewish-controlled Palestine of Arabs. In "Revisiting the Palestinian exodus of 1948," Morris uses newly available documents from the Israeli archives to support his older arguments that "the refugee problem was caused by attacks by Jewish forces on Arab villages and towns and by the inhabitants' fear of such attacks, compounded by expulsions, atrocities, and rumors of atrocities--and by the crucial Israeli Cabinet decision in June 1948 to bar a refugee return" (p. 38). In fact, the newly obtained archival information shows that more Jewish atrocities had taken place than Morris had previously believed, such as those al-Husayniyya and Burayr. This chapter is particularly important because so much of Morris's earlier assessments of Israeli expulsions were viciously attacked and rebuked. The latest documents from the Israeli archives, however, seem to validate Morris's thesis that Jewish military actions were the primary cause of the Palestinian refugee problem up to the Israeli government's decision to disallow their return.

 

A prevailing myth in Israel and the United States is that Arabs joined forces, sending massive waves of holy warriors to destroy everything Jewish. The reality was that there never was a unified, collective, monolithic Arab army. Avi Shlaim points out many of the problems with that myth. Arab nations decided to go to war in Palestine for very different reasons and at very different times. There were actually two Arab blocs, the Hashemite and the non-Hashemite. Although Abdullah, King of Jordan, was considered to be titular head of the Arab army, in reality no Arab commander was willing to allow a commander of a differing nationality to command and control his troops.

 

 

This isn't the rebuttal you think it is. You've just reinforced exactly what I wrote... which are that:

• The Nakba was a result of the war of annihilation against Israel, see Morris:

Quote

"As for the refugee situation, I still maintain that it was a requirement of the reality. Since the Palestinians tried and intended to destroy us, and their villages and towns served as bases in wartime, the winning side had to take over villages and expel populations. This situation was built into the nature of the war, even if people from the left have a hard time swallowing it. Massacres are always reprehensible, but the Jews behaved much better than other nations in similar circumstances.”

 

[...]

 

"The Zionist movement started out calling for the establishment of a Jewish state on all the territory of the Land of Israel, but from 1937 on, its leaders gradually abandoned the claim of 'it’s all mine’ and adhered to the ambition to form a sovereign Jewish state in part of the territory of the Land of Israel. Thus it changed its approach and consented to territorial compromise: that is, to the idea of two states for two peoples, a decision that derived in part from the logic of dividing the land between the two peoples living in it.”

 

“The Palestinian national movement has remained unchanged, throughout the different periods of the struggle, whether under the leadership of Hajj Amin al-Husayni or his successor, Yasser Arafat,” says Morris with near-palpable disgust. “It did not even change during the years of the Oslo process. In the end, both sides of the Palestinian movement the fundamentalists led by Hamas and the secular bloc led by Fatah are interested in Muslim rule over all of Palestine, with no Jewish state and no partition.”

 

https://www.haaretz.com/2012-09-20/ty-article/history-without-end-the-israel-arab-conflict/0000017f-f736-d47e-a37f-ff3e8c640000

• Five Arab countries attacked Israel. Whether or not they "officially" joined forces is a semantic argument that I didn't make. Clearly they weren't coordinated enough to take on small nation of 600,000 people, but the basic reality is that they tried anyway.

[Kassi]

4 hours ago, Mr. Mendes said:

Oh so you just genuinely haven't got the faintest idea about what you're talking about, got it. I knew a lot of the ATRL zionists were supremely uneducated on this matter, but you've certainly proven to be the most persistent in continuing to spout off whatever information you run across in these propaganda campaigns as absolute fact. Truly, this is one of the most embarrassing things I've seen happen on this site, and that's really saying something. 

 

You don't have a bit of interest or curiosity in learning anything, you're just in here going full on Nazi and applauding a genocide. 

I understand it quite in depth, as I've been studying it for almost a decade. It should have ended with the UN partition plan.

 

Here, I've summarized the essence of the conflict in 4 points for people like you who seem confused:

 

On 12/6/2023 at 12:12 AM, Kassi said:

Anyway, here's the cheat sheet to the curriculum:

1. Jews have no ancestral claim to the land of Palestine. Jewish presence in Palestine was driven by refuge-seeking diaspora Jewish populations of all ethnic backgrounds
2. The emergence of the state of Israel was a complex interplay of Zionist aspirations and Palestinian Arab nationalism

3. The two-state solution was a concession to the idea that an outside party, the British, could not obligate people to participate non-violently in plurinationalism...without becoming the Ottoman Empire.

4. The fact of Israel is not Zionism in and of itself; Zionism was causal but the existence of the state is not itself an ideology

Here's a more basic breakdown if that's too complicated:

 

World War -> Immigration Crisis -> Civil War

 

[SmittenCake]

 

 

 

[DAP]

Is that right? 

[State of Grace.]

10 minutes ago, DAP said:

Is that right? 

Is that acc run by Kassi

[ClashAndBurn]

 

[monologueNacafe]

why do y'all keep responding to that thing

[Mean Trees]

Coming here claiming you survived a genocide as a silencing tactic is very interesting. I would have never thought the resident moderates would expose themselves in such a way. 

[DAP]

1 hour ago, State of Grace. said:

Is that acc run by Kassi

I don’t think the Pelosi family gives him much time to do other things besides shining their shoes.

 

[SmittenCake]

 

[SmittenCake]

 

 

 

[Kassi]

1 hour ago, Mean Trees said:

Coming here claiming you survived a genocide as a silencing tactic is very interesting. I would have never thought the resident moderates would expose themselves in such a way. 

All I shared was my frame of reference. The same way ATRL’s Palestinians, Israelis, Western Arabs, and Western Jews share theirs.
 

If you feel silenced, that’s on you. I never asked anyone not to speak from their experience (or lack thereof).

The takeaway here is not to presume people are “deeply stupid”, like the post I replied to, simply because their worldviews aren’t shaped like yours. 

[SmittenCake]

 

 

 

 

[Kassi]

18 hours ago, Communion said:

 

I'm sorry but this is grossly a misappropriation of identity politics. 

 

Countless people who went through the Rwandan genocide, in addition to thousands of genocide scholars consider Israel's actions against Palestinians to be genocide.

 

Let alone - again - the metrics of population you were are not how genocide is defined, and if it were, this:

 

And this:

 

Tell very similar stories. 

And just to be extra thorough on this ridiculous post, cause I can't fathom the audacity behind making this comparison, the creator of the chart (Lyman Stone) had this to say:

 

Quote

Notice that in 1948, the Muslim and Christian populations actually decline. That’s the because during the 1947–48 conflict, many Arabs in the Land Between fled the conflict into other countries, especially Jordan and Lebanon. I do not count Jordan and Lebanon in any of my estimates, and so these refugees fall out of my sample. This is the period that Palestinians today refer to as the “Nakba,” meaning “disaster.” Since 1950, Muslim and Jewish populations have both risen dramatically, keeping a roughly stable numeric gap between them in favor of Jews.

 

[...]

 

Palestinians bet the farm on the idea that, in the words of their own generals in the 1948 war, they could “sweep the Jews into the sea,” i.e. successfully genocide them. The Palestinian political strategy 1919–1948 was entirely based on the idea that, bereft of British support, the Jews would be easy prey. This was the strategic calculus motivating repeated Palestinian choices to reject compromises, forego participation in political processes, and engage in destructive conflicts. This calculus was catastrophically wrong.

 

https://medium.com/migration-issues/who-has-claim-3-000-years-of-religion-in-the-land-between-23f220a697f7#:~:text=Notice that in,favor of Jews.

 

 

[Headlock]

10 hours ago, Mr. Mendes said:

Oh so you just genuinely haven't got the faintest idea about what you're talking about, got it. I knew a lot of the ATRL zionists were supremely uneducated on this matter, but you've certainly proven to be the most persistent in continuing to spout off whatever information you run across in these propaganda campaigns as absolute fact. Truly, this is one of the most embarrassing things I've seen happen on this site, and that's really saying something. 

 

You don't have a bit of interest or curiosity in learning anything, you're just in here going full on Nazi and applauding a genocide. 

That user is not uneducated, they know what they are doing. At a certain point you can no longer give someone the benefit of doubt of being ignorant when they are spouting out pro-genocidal language. They are just simply pro-genocide.

[ClashAndBurn]

Anyway, enough engaging with the genocide denialism for now

 

Joe Biden has basically told Israel this behavior is okay, so they’re going to keep doing it

[Luckitty]

12 hours ago, State of Grace. said:

On today's episode of the "most moral army in the world" 🥰🥰🥰🥰

 

 

Imagine if a palestinian said that? It would be all over the news in the west and israel & america would probably use it as an excuse to ethnically cleanse every single palestinian 

[rihannafan]

Lol at that User going from 'there was no palestine' to 'palestine' started a war against Israel. That is spam at this point.