news Israel-Palestine Conflict 2023/ 2024 Mega Thread

[Jjang]

57 minutes ago, Harrier said:

There is indeed more international support for Palestine now than there was 15 years ago - but why is that? It's because of the death. It's because of the current genocide. This is the matrydom politics in action. How many tens of thousands more must be sacrificed to Israel's brutality for the one state utopia to become a reality?

 

South Africa was a state ruled by less than 10% of its population. Ditto Algeria. It is in no way comparable to a modern state with a strong ethnic majority. 

 

I use the harsh words I use because I want people to face reality. I don't want Palestinians to be silent and die - I want them to make the best of an unjust situation and do what is right for the safety and security of their children, as many colonised groups around the world have done before. And the first step in that path is the acceptance of Israel's existence.

Not true. Yes, the numbers are horrifying this time around but Palestinians have been murdered in the thousands for decades. Heck, 2023 was the deadliest year for Palestinian children in the non-Hamas governed West Bank by June of this year.

 

What happened is the digital intifada that took place in May of 2021 after the forced displacement of Palestinian families from Sheikh Jarrah and Silwan - more specifically the protest campaigns led by Mohammed and Muna El Kurd. That's when public opinion began to majorly shift and even the terminology of which we discuss this issue changed.

 

I also hope you realize more than a million French settlers withdrew from Algeria during that time. Many Israeli settlers will do the same. 15% of them already have dual citizenship and many others have an accessible route to apply for other citizenship such as Portuguese or Polish. Meanwhile, Palestinians are indefinitely stateless.

 

As of now, in the region that the Israeli government classifies as "Israel" 7 million Jews and 8 million Palestinians live. Not including the millions of Palestinian refugees awaiting their right to return - with the majority of them living in neighboring countries. 

 

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I use the harsh words I use because I want people to face reality. I don't want Palestinians to be silent and die - I want them to make the best of an unjust situation and do what is right for the safety and security of their children, as many colonised groups around the world have done before. And the first step in that path is the acceptance of Israel's existence.

So they should accept the existence of an oppressive entity that does not accept their existence? They should accept an oppressive entity whose entire existence relies systemically on their erasure? what kind of ****** up logic is that.   All colonized people rejected their colonizers, not just Palestinians. 

 

Jeez, I truly wonder what your reaction would be if a soldier shot and killed your mother in front of your eyes. I'm 100% sure you'd instantly go hug him in that moment, whisper "I radically accept your existence" and live happily ever after. 

 

stop minimizing the scope of our humanity. Our anger is justified, our resilience is justified. Were not some crazy Arabs that have barbaric genes running in our veins. We are a people dealing with an ideology (Zionism) that would never compromise its stance of rejecting our existence. That's the story. There's no other one. Secular, white, brown, gay, hijabi, non-hijabi, lesbians, binary, nonbinary, mothers, fathers, children, aggressive, non-aggressive, angry, not angry, educated, not educated - all Palestinians of all kinds are oppressed by Israel for simply being Palestinian. That's the common denominator and there's no way to un-Palestinian ourselves. It's not an "ok you recognize Israel you get rights" but "Your other friend is sassy towards Israel so he doesn't get rights" situation - all of us don't get our rights because we're Palestinians. 

 

Like... I don't know how to make this case simpler for you. Life does not operate under Disney movie logic. 

 

 

Anyway, way before Hamas: 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 25, 2023 by Jjang

[Headlock]

1 hour ago, Harrier said:

You say Palestinians can protest Hamas after Palestine is free - so after Hamas achieves its goals?  Your nationalist delusion will not happen. Palestine will not be from river to sea, not unless israel is bombed into submission by Iran or something. Israel will not cease to exist without extreme, completely unjustifiable violence. It is an entrenched modern state with the backing of a superpower, and the UN recognition of virtually every state outside of the Islamic world. We are completely powerless to do anything about it, especially those of us who aren't American. Face that reality.

 

Is it justice? No. Should it be this way? No. I have always said that Israel should never have existed. But peace is more important than justice. The lives of Palestinian children are more important than one free state. The sacrificial, martryed, revolutionary politics of Hamas and their supporters in the online left makes pawns of innocent Palestinians in service of an impossible goal. Accepting Israel's existence and pushing for hard immediate peace is the only way forward and I will continue to fight anyone who says otherwise regardless of who you are or whatever any of you think of me. Violence will end only in genocide.

 

 

Israel’s version of “peace” IS the genocide of the Palestinian people, so they can be rid of them forever and build theme parks and beach resorts on top of Gazan rubble and condos on the West Bank. You keep operating under the false assumption that Israel WANTS peace with Palestinians, and countless users keep having to tell you how baseless that is. What we are witnessing is Israel’s two-state solution, and as you can see it is not working as the US and other international powers refuse to allow Israel to suffer any consequences to their abhorrent apartheid and genocide towards Palestinians.

[airplane]

i have no words

[Aethereal]

Gaza ops will expand, Benjamin Netanyahu says: War 'isn't close to finished'  

 

https://www.hindustantimes.com/world-news/gaza-ops-will-expand-benjamin-netanyahu-says-war-isnt-close-to-finished-101703511557803.html

[Aethereal]

3 hours ago, airplane said:

i have no words

They really bombed them back to stone age. 

[YellowRibbon]

Israel is evil to no end

[Communion]

12 hours ago, Harrier said:

But also I won't hide or deny that I have a particular distaste for your brand of politics, and that's been there for years, ever since I did Chinese/Soviet history units at uni. I genuinely think you and others who share your views - especially the willingness to justify violence - are dangerous. I look at you and other leftists' willingness to support "revolutionary" or "resistance' violence and I see the same ideaology that justified what was done in the CR in China, to pick one example.  It is a particularly concerning brand of modern American leftism that I have always disliked and desperately do not want to influence my country.

As a reminder, it is a form of violence to sell bombs to a nation while knowing said nation will use said bombs to indiscriminately attack another nation. 

 

This reductionist take of "durrr durrr Moslems hate Jews" - exemplified by neocons like Noah Smith - is further exposed as absurd when those who intervene in criticisms of its pushers would reject takes suggesting that the West is only involved in Middle Eastern politics due to some visceral Arab hatred. 

 

That is is possible to recognize the subjugation of Yemeni Jews following 1948, that the Houthis are Islamists, and that neither of these things make declarations like "all of Yemen's foreign policy is dictated by Jew hatred" true. That there is no need to replace what is decades of geopolitical history and years worth of modern conflict (shocking Yemen is not siding with a nation allied with the two powers that have continually been bombing it!) with such reductionism.

 

But this reductionist tactic is obviously only one-sided by you and others for clear reasons. 

 

Palestinians want to be liberated? They're obviously Jew haters. 

 

Western, largely atheist progressives support Palestinian liberation? Haters of Western democracy. 

 

Israelis wants to keep the continued economic exploitation going via their apartheid system? "It's complicated! They're refugees! Jewish self-determination!"

 

The US and other Western superpowers enable Israel to carpet bomb all of Gaza? "They're the lesser evil. We must maintain the belief that enlightenment era liberal values are worth fighting for no matter how many mistakes we as Westerners make!"

 

Merry Christmas indeed 

[Aethereal]

A ceasefire will save the lives of thousands of Palestinian children and just as many of the adults and it will return the hostages back to Israel. #ceasefirenow

 

[Communion]

Also I'm sorry, @Harrier, but this is a horrific thing to say to a Palestinian person:

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The sacrificial, martryed, revolutionary politics of Hamas and their supporters in the online left makes pawns of innocent Palestinians in service of an impossible goal. 

This kind of rhetoric is literally what paternalism is. Hamas is nothing but Palestinians organized into a political apparatus. They exist because they represent a not-insignificant sector of the overall ideological spectrum of Palestinian thought. 

 

Of course there will be diverse political thought in every country and it's chauvinism to be shocked there is in Palestine. It's not hard to imagine elderly Palestinians who experienced the Nakba be brought to their knees and want to give up as another Nakba unfolds in front of them. It's not absurd for someone to feel overwhelmed by the idea of their life being entangled forever in violence to just be a liberated people. 

 

But similarly, polling shows us that Israeli violence unites the Palestinian people - not just Hamas - in this cause and emotional sentiment, literally to the point of why 10/07 occurred and how it did. The more Palestinians interact with Israelis, the less and less open to living side by side with them as two nations they become because Palestinians are consistently met by Israelis with violence and subjugation. 

 

I don't think it's what any young lefty Western person online says that causes these men and boys to hate the Israeli regime:

It is literally the difference in these material experiences that brings about what we see today - but in the opposite of what you claim.

 

That you and I have no understanding of the reality of Palestinians living under occupation. That our gayness brings us no closer to understanding the lives of gay Palestinian men close to our age who wake up and put on gear and weaponry and work alongside alleged Islamists like Hamas to neutralize and defeat Israeli military threats. Does that disparity not speak to you? That the most we have to fear is the rare chance of a micro-aggression or hearing a homophobic joke? That these things simply don't compare to living under an apartheid-style blockade where an enemy is trying to orchestrate famine? While its soldiers indiscriminately bomb apartment buildings and schools? And take hundreds hostage as political prisoners into prisons where rape is rampant as a tactic? 

 

This isn't to romanticize violent resistance, but to emphasize the horrors innate to it we can't actually know. And that of us who don't know such should instead dedicate ourselves on getting the countries we live in to disassociate from Israel militarily. You know what leads to less dead Palestinians? Less nations providing Israel with the very weapons and system it uses to mow down entire villages of innocent civilians.

Edited December 25, 2023 by Communion

[Kassi]

 

 

 

[Communion]

8 minutes ago, Kassi said:

 

 

 

A "permanent ceasefire" that does not include the end Israeli violence via mass political hostages (8k and counting) and expanding settlements is not a "permanent ceasefire", btw!  Because you're gleefully hoping people don't read what you share;

 

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Islamic Jihad, which also holds hostages in custody in Gaza, has echoed that stance.

 

An Islamic Jihad delegation led by its leader Ziad al-Nakhala is currently in Cairo to exchange ideas with Egyptian officials over prisoner swap offers and other issues, but an official said the group had set an end to Israel’s military offensive as a pre-condition for further negotiations.

 

Islamic Jihad insists, the official said, that any prisoner swap must be based on the principle of “all for all,” meaning the release of all hostages held in Gaza by Hamas and Islamic Jihad in return for freeing all Palestinians jailed in Israel.

Hamas had laid out 3 clear pillars to what a ceasefire is. 

Why does Israel refuse to comply with these 3 basic tasks, especially when the international community at large agrees with Hamas?

 

How can peace come if Israel keeps referring to the West Bank as "Judea and Samaria" and refusing to end settlements there?

[State of Grace.]

As they should.

 

"If you want a permanent ceasefire, give up control of Gaza to Israel and let genocidal war criminals take over the land "

 

But the idiots here told me that Israel's objective wasn't taking over the land?

 

These ridiculous demands would only accelerate the rate at which Palestinians are ethnically cleansed/genocided. Of course, it's being interpreted as "SEE!!! HAMAS IS REJECTING PEACE AND A CEASEFIRE" when the same article from Reuters that I posted above literally has Netanyahu saying "Whoever thinks we will stop is detached from reality".

[Cyanide]

Project canary, very interesting read

 

https://www.thenation.com/article/world/canary-mission-israel-covert-operations/?fbclid=PAAabLfxOFJIGw62irp_4se-3Hi_xnucVp4AM2hwOFkP1Sh5y9AYtF6eGLArI_aem_AShzrCnjswajqoW0RXg1ZM8eHOpUQXW6WRYp7_2sgozb70pBrKfMOIyzOzEsALREbIQ

 

This is INSANE. Can some of the Israel sympathizers here explain why people are being profiled and having their job aspects ruined by agencies like the MSA? If Israel is innocent and any critique or disagreement is automatically antisemitism, why is the goal to silence and harass people???

Edited December 25, 2023 by Cyanide

[Kassi]

Interesting.

 

#ceasefirenow has turned into #ceasefirewhenIsraelisdestroyed real quickly.

 

Though, I guess that's what it's always been.

[Communion]

9 minutes ago, Kassi said:

#ceasefirenow has turned into #ceasefirewhenIsraelisdestroyed

So you're openly saying you believe Israel includes the mythical lands of "Judea and Samaria"?

Edited December 25, 2023 by Communion

[Space Cowboy]

So Gaza is no more. What do you think Israel is going to do with all the people that used to live there?

 

No other arabic country wants them. And I doubt Israel will spend any money rebuilding the city, and Israel definitely won’t leave them on their own and let Hamas regain power.

[airplane]

 

[Kassi]

10 minutes ago, Communion said:

So you're openly saying you believe Israel includes the mythical lands of "Judea and Samaria"?

 

 

 

[Cyanide]

8 minutes ago, airplane said:

 

This is antisemetic!!!!! 

[airplane]

Just now, Cyanide said:

This is antisemetic!!!!! 

so is breathing

[Communion]

2 minutes ago, Kassi said:

 

 

 

Yes, Hamas is not going to stop resisting Israel until the settlements Israel built on the land - that the UN says is Palestinian land - are dismantled. 

 

Are you saying you believe Israel is entitled to view the land of the West Bank as theirs and continue building these settlements?

[State of Grace.]

18 minutes ago, airplane said:

 

These images are probably the most harrowing thing I've seen since the aggressions started. Every day I see a post on IG and say that's the worst of it only to be proven wrong the next day. 

 

This **** has gone for long enough that literal bodies - that Israeli soldiers and tanks in Beit Hanoun prevented paramedics from reaching them - are decomposing on the streets with flies and animals feeding off them.

 

I hope these images haunt every single person complicit in this genocide for the rest of their lives. I hope they never see a day of peace.

Edited December 25, 2023 by State of Grace.

[airplane]

2 minutes ago, State of Grace. said:

These images are probably the most harrowing thing I've seen since the aggressions started. Every day I see a post on IG and say that's the worst of it only to be proven wrong the next day. 

 

This **** has gone for long enough that literal bodies - that Israeli soldiers and tanks in Beit Hanoun prevented paramedics from reaching them - are decomposing on the streets with flies and animals feeding off them.

 

I hope these images haunt every single person complicit in this genocide for the rest of their lives. I hope they never see a day of peace.

Truly, and that video of north gaza flattened is really scary to look at. it’s like it was nuked and flattened. i can’t wait for israel to pay for this someday, hopefully very soon.

Edited December 25, 2023 by airplane

[Kassi]

23 minutes ago, Communion said:

Yes, Hamas is not going to stop resisting Israel until the settlements Israel built on the land - that the UN says is Palestinian land - are dismantled. 

 

Are you saying you believe Israel is entitled to view the land of the West Bank as theirs and continue building these settlements?

At this point, it's clear that it's not about the West Bank or Gaza. It's about the fantasy of eliminationist struggle and desire to dissolve the state of Israel. 

 

You yourself have said as much. Gaslight someone else.

[Communion]

6 minutes ago, Kassi said:

At this point, it's clear that it's not about the West Bank or Gaza.

There is no way to make this claim given that Israel has never put forth a deal that includes dismantling the West Bank settlements.

 

Again, this isn't a hard question. Do you acknowledge the West Bank is Palestinian land and a ceasefire has to include the end of settlements to be a ceasefire?