news Israel-Palestine Conflict 2023/ 2024 Mega Thread

[Pendulum]

European Broadcasting Union does not want to disqualify Israel from this year's Eurovision, despite their national broadcaster's rampant propaganda in the past two months and citing the non-political nature of the contest.  The double standards and the moral bankruptcy of the West are mindboggling. 

 

Reminder that Russia was swiftly kicked out of the 2022 edition when they invaded Ukraine. 

 

[Jjang]

I love how Israel’s slogan now is “there is no left or right we are all one!” (in the context of this war)

 

And I’m here like… yeah, I was saying the exact same thing here for years and getting called anti semitic for it. 

Edited December 11, 2023 by Jjang

[Harrier]

8 hours ago, Communion said:

Again, you keep thinking I am doing identity politics. Having a historical, material understanding of how societies work is not "jargon". 

 

Their reality is important given their posts in this thread detailing their own experiences over the last 2 months of having to censor their own social media and be afraid for their own safety for how Jewish Israeli friends and co-workers were speaking of not just Palestinians in Gaza but Arab citizens of Israel. Let alone my discomfort was with your tone, explicitly mentioning to you where the user you were quoting is from.

 

You've convinced me you don't get *why* white supremacy or nationalism is harmful. You feel hatred is bad and that critical analysis of something denotes a hatred of it, and snicker at this "online left" you've imagined. You've dug your heels into some paternalistic attitude and pigeon-hole everyone critical of *systems* in your mind as "inherently good" as self-hating Westerners or identity fetishists, but you're the only one seeing *identity*.

 

None of my views you've referenced have anything to do with adorning someone for having a "global south identity". Why would I make 99% of my interest in politics on here be about *working class Americans* as a *white working class American* if I thought the way you claim I do? 

 

My criticisms of Europeans scapegoating Muslim migrants comes from the *material* suffering these migrants at large in Europe face, be it from living in poverty, atomization, work place discrimination, police harassment, or ghettoization. None of this is "identity". It is the material conditions we speak of. And how the delusions of white supremacist who claim MIGRANTS pose an existential threat to their lives are directly at odds with material reality. That it is not the Moroccan health aide who lives in poverty next door for why their own lives are collapsing under capitalism but their own elites orchestrating their suffering. The same cannot be said for Palestinians who fear the Israeli desire for their destruction.

 

The person you scolded lives in a system where non-Jews essentially exist as second class citizens - let alone that inequality within Israel being a *step up* from the *APARTHEID SYSTEM* that those on the other side of the border wall must face.

 

We're not talking about "feelings". We're talking about people being denied access to water, shelter, food, and more by a system that rains down constant death. That the Israeli state institutes a blockade to restrict how many calories a Gazan can consume. Why avoid addressing things like Israeli law dictating Arab citizens cannot marry non-citizens? The restriction on movement? This is not "oppression" in the "abstract" like some point system. It is the literal material conditions that those you've scolded as "Islamists" must live within *explicitly* due to the legal framework of Israel.

 

"It's not about who is oppressed" sounds like a way to avoid addressing that the existence of Israel as a nation state causes the subjugation of Palestinians and thus anyone who wants to end the subjugation of Palestinians must commit also to the end of Israel.

I'm not necessarily accusing you of doing identity politics - I never even used the word identity - rather, I was questioning the relevance of solely using leftist material/power analysis to colour your view of every possible situation, including on this issue of whether it is a good idea to villainise entire civillian groups. it doesn't matter to me what a user's background is, I'm going to challenge their arguments anyway.

 

We are talking about feelings because your first statement was that is was uncomfortable for me to challenge a user because of their situation. You then bring in all this other content and make it about people being denied access to water, when that's in no way what we were talking about. Again - it was about whether it's a dark path to start talking about a whole population of people being bloodthirsty, pro-genocide radicals.

 

There's no point to our back and forth, because in the end I am not a leftist and I vehemently disagree with your worldview, especially when it comes to international issues. I won't respond more - peace girl.

 

[Jjang]

37 minutes ago, Harrier said:

Again - it was about whether it's a dark path to start talking about a whole population of people being bloodthirsty, pro-genocide radicals.

So you're more concerned about a few ATRLers calling Israelis genocidal out of fear of dehumanizing them than about the actual genocide taking place right now as we speak? 

 

Israelis don't have to be cartoonishly evil and have Disney villain cackles for them to be rightfully judged as being a genocidal society. They don't have to put a Palestinian baby in their egg mixer every morning for them to be cast as people who the majority of their society believes in militarized state values and are, indeed, pro-genocide. 

 

And the thing is, if it were a theoretical thing, maybe I'd let this argument flow around... but when we say they're pro-genocide we are talking about a genocide that is taking place right now. It's not some metaphorical genocide they believe in, they believe in an active genocide taking place literally 10 miles away from them. 

 

So if your big argument revelation is that "we're all human" then I'd urge you to use that sentiment to condemn others (meaning Israeli society) who don't believe in that fundamental human-ness in real-time instead of using these times to play devil's advocate. 

 

These are times of emergency. I don't respect anyone trying to make these times about themselves and their boring useless arguments.

 

100,000+ have been either murdered or wounded due to direct Israeli aggression. These figures do not include people who are dying from a lack of medicine, food, or water due to Israel's blockade. 

2,000,000+ have been indefinitely displaced from their homes with nowhere to go. 

 

 

in. two. months. only.

Edited December 11, 2023 by Jjang

[Jjang]

Israel is now kidnapping tons of Palestinians. A source on the ground tells me that one of those kidnapped is a professor at Gaza University (who happens to be the source's friend). 

 

The situation in Gaza is more catastrophic than we can imagine. People are killing each other for bread.  

[Communion]

2 hours ago, Harrier said:

I'm not necessarily accusing you of doing identity politics - I never even used the word identity - rather, I was questioning the relevance of solely using leftist material/power analysis to colour your view of every possible situation, including on this issue of whether it is a good idea to villainise entire civillian groups. it doesn't matter to me what a user's background is, I'm going to challenge their arguments anyway.

 

We are talking about feelings because your first statement was that is was uncomfortable for me to challenge a user because of their situation. You then bring in all this other content and make it about people being denied access to water, when that's in no way what we were talking about. Again - it was about whether it's a dark path to start talking about a whole population of people being bloodthirsty, pro-genocide radicals.

 

There's no point to our back and forth, because in the end I am not a leftist and I vehemently disagree with your worldview, especially when it comes to international issues. I won't respond more - peace girl.

 

The genocidal feelings of your average Israeli is important to address given that they have both the material means and systematic power to see this genocide to fruition, and thus if you also feel that extremist Palestinians must reform their religious views and this be a conditoon for peace, then the dismantling of the genocidal state apparatus of Israel and the collective re-education of the Israeli people is also a necessary condition for peace. 

[DAP]

 

[ClashAndBurn]

2 hours ago, Harrier said:

Again - it was about whether it's a dark path to start talking about a whole population of people being bloodthirsty, pro-genocide radicals.

Less than 2% of Israelis think the IDF has gone too far in their reprisal campaign. The vast majority think they haven’t been brutal enough. Exactly what else could that possibly mean to you?

[GhostBox]

30 minutes ago, ClashAndBurn said:

Less than 2% of Israelis think the IDF has gone too far in their reprisal campaign. The vast majority think they haven’t been brutal enough. Exactly what else could that possibly mean to you?

This could literally be said for the Palestinians and their support of Hamas murderous actions too 💀

[ClashAndBurn]

1 minute ago, GhostBox said:

This could literally be said for the Palestinians and their support of Hamas murderous actions too 💀

Imagine being surprised that occupied peoples no longer want to be under a brutal occupation where they can casually get killed with a sniper shot through the forehead just for breathing wrong.

 

Close to 20x more Palestinians have died in the last two months. The rest have been corralled into dense spaces with no shelter in order to avoid getting bombed where the IDF are still shelling them anyway.

[ZeroSuitBritney]

#StrikeForGaza today!

[Aethereal]

Sanders opposed to sending $10B to ‘extremist Netanyahu government’ in Israel    

 

Quote

“I do not think we should be appropriating $10.1 billion for the right-wing, extremist Netanyahu government to continue its current military approach. What the Netanyahu government is doing is immoral, it is in violation of international law, and the United States should not be complicit in those actions,” Sanders argued on the Senate floor.

 https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/4342060-sanders-netanyahu-government-israel/

[State of Grace.]

1 hour ago, Aristotle said:

Sanders opposed to sending $10B to ‘extremist Netanyahu government’ in Israel    

 

 https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/4342060-sanders-netanyahu-government-israel/

extremist *insert any Israeli politician from any party here* government

 

He's such a joke.

[Aethereal]

2 minutes ago, State of Grace. said:

extremist *insert any Israeli politician from any party here* government

 

He's such a joke.

I would not send another 10B dollars to them even if they were on the good side. There are like 30,000 Hamas soldiers and you're a nuclear power why do you need another 10B?

Edited December 11, 2023 by Aristotle

[Aethereal]

https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/israel-hamas-war-will-turn-beirut-into-gaza-if-netanyahu-stern-warning-to-hezbollah-4644410

https://www.newarab.com/news/senior-israeli-official-says-war-hezbollah-likely

 

"If Hezbollah decides to open an all-out war, then with its own hands it will turn Beirut and southern Lebanon into Gaza and Khan Yunis," Netanyahu said.

Israeli national security advisor says war with Hezbollah likely

 

[Mean Trees]

29 minutes ago, Aristotle said:

https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/israel-hamas-war-will-turn-beirut-into-gaza-if-netanyahu-stern-warning-to-hezbollah-4644410

https://www.newarab.com/news/senior-israeli-official-says-war-hezbollah-likely

 

"If Hezbollah decides to open an all-out war, then with its own hands it will turn Beirut and southern Lebanon into Gaza and Khan Yunis," Netanyahu said.

Israeli national security advisor says war with Hezbollah likely

 

Yet it was Israel who had to sue for peace in 2006.

[hoax]

7 hours ago, Communion said:

The genocidal feelings of your average Israeli is important to address given that they have both the material means and systematic power to see this genocide to fruition, and thus if you also feel that extremist Palestinians must reform their religious views and this be a conditoon for peace, then the dismantling of the genocidal state apparatus of Israel and the collective re-education of the Israeli people is also a necessary condition for peace. 

I've seen this concept thrown around several times but I've never seen an answer as to how this could reasonably play out. All Israeli actions in Gaza have been met thus far with very limited pushback from the global community (unless you want to count the UNGA resolutions that aren't worth the ink they're printed with). Regional and global powers have shown a great deal of apathy when confronted with the plight of the Palestinians by protesters (the only group to actively respond to Israeli actions have been the Houthi rebels in Yemen, and they aren't capable of forcing the dismantling of Israel and the re-education of its citizens). The Palestinians themselves are not presently in a position to force such a change on Israel, and the Israeli political apparatus is obviously quite opposed to any internally-driven dismantling campaign. China won't jeopardize its trade relationships, Russia is preoccupied, and if Iran tries anything overt, Tehran will be a pile of radioactive rubble. The only external powers with a chance of forcing the Israeli's hand are the Americans or (less likely) a combination of the Saudi's, Turks, and Egyptians. If the protesters in the US are incapable of getting the US government to mandate a long-term ceasefire (and will have a harder time with humanitarian pauses now that most of the American citizens held as hostages have been released) or to slow the shipment of weapons, I seriously fail to see how they'll manage to convince the Biden Administration to force through the dismantling of the Israeli regime or the re-education of the Israeli people. And even that assumes that the protests don't lose steam over the coming months or years of this conflict. It's not as if the US election cycle can be waited out either, since the opposition is literally made up of bloodthirsty Zionist Islamophobes who believe that supporting the state of Israel will bring about the Rapture and the second coming of Christ. As for a regional coalition, it would require a regime change in Egypt back to the MB, a radical shift in Turkish-EU relations, and a guarantee for the Saudi's that the US didn't care if they went ahead and dismantled Israel (all of these are unlikely to occur individually, let alone in conjunction). Even disregarding the hypothetical pre-requisites, the leadership in all 3 countries would need a strong emotional incentive from their populations to act, and while I thought that might have started after the first hospital bombing, that's not panned out. 

 

The historical examples that come to mind for state-dismantling and re-education (Germany, Japan, Rhodesia, and South Africa) were all reliant on circumstances that don't exist here. The Americans and Brits and Soviets had beaten the Germans in the war and destroyed their economy, infrastructure, and spirit (it's hard to continue a war being fought to further your interests as the true superior race when supposed inferiors were able to defeat you so soundly). The Japanese surrender and pacification came at a nuclear gunpoint. Rhodesia wasn't exactly a top US priority at the time (and worries of driving what ended up being the Mugabe regime into the Soviet camp probably held back what little bit of the US establishment may have been in favor of an overt intervention), and the UK was mostly just mad they'd been disregarded by Ian Smith and the UDI. Apartheid South Africa had backed itself into the economic and social corner, and in the post-Soviet world the US had no domino-theory derived fears to prop it up. In the latter two cases, the minority white populations never made up more than small fraction of the population, and never had a chance at maintaining power once they lost the external circumstances keeping them propped up. Zionists in Israel make up a majority of the population Israel, and are literally outbreeding the Palestinians (while acting to kill as many children as possible, each of which reduces the potential for Palestinian ethnic survival in the future). The most radical Zionists have been preparing for the day the Americans "went home" since at least the 70s (and probably earlier). The American establishment has zero desire to put Israel in a similar state to Germany or Japan in 1945, and given the upcoming electoral actions of AIPAC, any US politician with a dissenting opinion is in the process of being shoved out in 2024 or in some future election. 

 

Ultimately, dismantling the Israeli regime and instituting a mass re-education is only one condition for a peaceful resolution. Another that comes to mind is the complete eradication of Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank through mass murder campaigns (with or without an exodus to Egypt, Jordan, or countries willing to accept refugees) - which is clearly the option preferred in Jerusalem and in Washington. I guess it just depends on how someone chooses to define a peaceful resolution. A peaceful resolution to the conflict that spares as many lives as possible, establishes a stable government with meaningful input from both parties, and creates framework that prevents this from happening again is the ideal solution, but no one with the ability to bring that about is incentivized to do so.

 

In light of that, how would you propose that the genocidal state apparatus of Israel be dismantled and the population of Israel be re-educated? 

Edited December 11, 2023 by wastedpotential

[ZeroSuitBritney]

Oh wow this is such a bop and so powerful (turn on captions)

 

 

[Harrier]

4 hours ago, wastedpotential said:

I've seen this concept thrown around several times but I've never seen an answer as to how this could reasonably play out. All Israeli actions in Gaza have been met thus far with very limited pushback from the global community (unless you want to count the UNGA resolutions that aren't worth the ink they're printed with). Regional and global powers have shown a great deal of apathy when confronted with the plight of the Palestinians by protesters (the only group to actively respond to Israeli actions have been the Houthi rebels in Yemen, and they aren't capable of forcing the dismantling of Israel and the re-education of its citizens). The Palestinians themselves are not presently in a position to force such a change on Israel, and the Israeli political apparatus is obviously quite opposed to any internally-driven dismantling campaign. China won't jeopardize its trade relationships, Russia is preoccupied, and if Iran tries anything overt, Tehran will be a pile of radioactive rubble. The only external powers with a chance of forcing the Israeli's hand are the Americans or (less likely) a combination of the Saudi's, Turks, and Egyptians. If the protesters in the US are incapable of getting the US government to mandate a long-term ceasefire (and will have a harder time with humanitarian pauses now that most of the American citizens held as hostages have been released) or to slow the shipment of weapons, I seriously fail to see how they'll manage to convince the Biden Administration to force through the dismantling of the Israeli regime or the re-education of the Israeli people. And even that assumes that the protests don't lose steam over the coming months or years of this conflict. It's not as if the US election cycle can be waited out either, since the opposition is literally made up of bloodthirsty Zionist Islamophobes who believe that supporting the state of Israel will bring about the Rapture and the second coming of Christ. As for a regional coalition, it would require a regime change in Egypt back to the MB, a radical shift in Turkish-EU relations, and a guarantee for the Saudi's that the US didn't care if they went ahead and dismantled Israel (all of these are unlikely to occur individually, let alone in conjunction). Even disregarding the hypothetical pre-requisites, the leadership in all 3 countries would need a strong emotional incentive from their populations to act, and while I thought that might have started after the first hospital bombing, that's not panned out. 

 

The historical examples that come to mind for state-dismantling and re-education (Germany, Japan, Rhodesia, and South Africa) were all reliant on circumstances that don't exist here. The Americans and Brits and Soviets had beaten the Germans in the war and destroyed their economy, infrastructure, and spirit (it's hard to continue a war being fought to further your interests as the true superior race when supposed inferiors were able to defeat you so soundly). The Japanese surrender and pacification came at a nuclear gunpoint. Rhodesia wasn't exactly a top US priority at the time (and worries of driving what ended up being the Mugabe regime into the Soviet camp probably held back what little bit of the US establishment may have been in favor of an overt intervention), and the UK was mostly just mad they'd been disregarded by Ian Smith and the UDI. Apartheid South Africa had backed itself into the economic and social corner, and in the post-Soviet world the US had no domino-theory derived fears to prop it up. In the latter two cases, the minority white populations never made up more than small fraction of the population, and never had a chance at maintaining power once they lost the external circumstances keeping them propped up. Zionists in Israel make up a majority of the population Israel, and are literally outbreeding the Palestinians (while acting to kill as many children as possible, each of which reduces the potential for Palestinian ethnic survival in the future). The most radical Zionists have been preparing for the day the Americans "went home" since at least the 70s (and probably earlier). The American establishment has zero desire to put Israel in a similar state to Germany or Japan in 1945, and given the upcoming electoral actions of AIPAC, any US politician with a dissenting opinion is in the process of being shoved out in 2024 or in some future election. 

 

Ultimately, dismantling the Israeli regime and instituting a mass re-education is only one condition for a peaceful resolution. Another that comes to mind is the complete eradication of Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank through mass murder campaigns (with or without an exodus to Egypt, Jordan, or countries willing to accept refugees) - which is clearly the option preferred in Jerusalem and in Washington. I guess it just depends on how someone chooses to define a peaceful resolution. A peaceful resolution to the conflict that spares as many lives as possible, establishes a stable government with meaningful input from both parties, and creates framework that prevents this from happening again is the ideal solution, but no one with the ability to bring that about is incentivized to do so.

 

In light of that, how would you propose that the genocidal state apparatus of Israel be dismantled and the population of Israel be re-educated? 

I've made this point before, but happy to see it expressed more eloquently than myself here. The reconstruction of these countries came after the most horrendous war in history, with untold destruction and mass death. It came after Hiroshima, after Dresden. South Africa meanwhile had the unique situation where 10% of the population was in control - something that is unsustainable and much more easily undermined. Israel, meanwhile, is 80% Jewish, and much more well established.

 

I don't do "defenses" of Israel because I like it - I just want to online left to face reality head on. You have a country with a strong majority population that believes in its right to exist. How do you dislodge this state without doing a Dresden in Tel Aviv? Palestine will not be from river to sea without a massive regional war. I understand and sympathise with the fact that one secular state would be the just end to this conflict: but it isn't possible without mass violence.

 

I look at what is happening, what the results of people's actions are, and what the immediate possibilites are. When you look at things through this lens, and not the lens of historic justice as members in this thread do, people might understand better why I see things like framing Oct 7th as "just resistance" as dangerous and unproductive. 

 

Most of us in here accept that Israel shouldn't exist. We accept that it is an apartheid state that oppresses Palestinians and is prepared to do wildly disproportionate violence in reponse to attack, or to keep its structures intact. We see that there is 7 million strong population base supporting that state's continued existence, and the most powerful country in the world backing it. That is the situation as it stands.

 

Putting Israeli civillians aside: if we care about Palestinian lives, we want the thousands of children who are being killed to live, what is the best path for Palestinians and people that care about them to follow? What path causes the least suffering, the greatest hope for future prosperity? I would argue that it is clearly, obviously, peace and a two state solution. It is descalation of violence, abandonment of nationalistic pride and dreams, no more from the river to the sea. It is accepting the reality of Israel and attempting to build a better life for your people in a world where it exists, free of these wars. It's not perfect, it's not what should have happened: but it's the only path that lets the majority of kids live out their lives in peace.

 

That is why I argue against the online left as I do, not because I care about the state of Israel: but because I see their stridency and as an obstacle to peace and a precursor to more violence. If we abandon Hamas, abandon from river to sea, dissavow violence, call for immediate peace and ceasefire - surely that is what the left should want? Surely the lives of children are more important than some far off "justice"?

[Ubermensch]

I hope that the violence can end and that we can forge a new kind of peace through the interconnected online world we live in today. 

[nooniebao]

 

[Aethereal]

There is no deadline for the war. Disappointing  but not very surprising. 

[ClashAndBurn]

1 hour ago, Harrier said:

I would argue that it is clearly, obviously, peace and a two state solution.

75% of Israeli Jews disagree. They prefer to either maintain the status quo of apartheid or engage in ethnic cleansing to push Palestinians out of their borders. That reality hasn't even changed much, with the delta pre-Oct. 7 being a 6-7% difference.

 

You're the one who's ignoring the reality of what the people actually on the ground in Israel want. The only one pushing for the Two State Delusion are Joe Biden and Antony Blinken for a reason. Netanyahu doesn't want it. Israelis as a whole do not want it. They want the Palestinians GONE. 

[Mr. Mendes]

I'm so fascinated how ever after a mountain evidence pointing toward it being true, there are people in this thread who're still willing to imply what is happening is anything other than a targeted genocide 

[FOCK]

12 hours ago, GhostBox said:

This could literally be said for the Palestinians and their support of Hamas murderous actions too 💀

Actually, no, it can not.

 

Palestinians don’t call for the eradication of their Jewish brethren - who apparently view them as subhuman. 
 

800 of the (still inconclusive) 1200 killed on Oct 7 were soldiers that Israel includes in their civilian count. There is footage of fighters saying “leave that person, they’re not a soldier”, accounts of people being asked if they were soldiers, & a Hamas fighter telling a family they’re not going to harm them & that they’re only after soldiers & they have also clarified their stated targets on Oct 7.
 

The remainder of the victims were, as reported by Israeli publications, either killed in crossfire or had their home shelled by 20 year old IDF tiktok girlies with no clue. The Nova party was mysteriously relocated closer to the border the day prior to the event, even with the conclusive findings that Israel were aware of a Hamas plot months earlier, ignoring several warnings & putting their citizens in harms way, even going as far as to re-station & unarm soldiers typically at that border.
 

Those kidnapped have by their own account, been treated humanely & taken care of, and immediately offered release for prisoner exchange, which Netenyahu failed to reveal on Oct 8th, refused & prolonged. 

None of the other sensationalised accounts have been proven, nor has Israel allowed independent investigations of the claims. 
 

You can continue to paint Palestinians as “barbaric”, but everyone sees the clear source of the barbarism here, if the Amalek references weren’t enough for you.  

Edited December 12, 2023 by FOCK