news Israel-Palestine Conflict 2023/ 2024 Mega Thread

[Communion]

11 minutes ago, Kassi said:

And if they don't want to leave Israel/Palestine. Then what?

What do you call an Israeli who only wants to live in a state where they perpetuate artificial, constant ethnic dominance and subjugation of others?

 

"And what if the Rhodesians don't want to lose their permanent status of an ethnic super class???"

[Kassi]

Just now, Eat The Acid said:

They can live there. A state that doesn’t preference ethnicity or religion but gives freedoms and rights to all its people. Surely as someone from a country like that - you’d agree with that sentiment? Or are you implying apartheid and ethnostates is what you support and in extension - the genocide of Palestinians?

Is that what Hamas wants? The Arab League? The Palestinian Authority? Likud? What about the Palestinian people? What about the Israeli public?

 

If the answer from all of these parties is NO (and it is). Who do you think should step in to enforce such a state and how?

[teresaguidice]

13 hours ago, Kassi said:

 

 

 

 

#EndCampusAntisemitism 

 

I still can’t believe they said calling on the genocide of Jews would be allowed depending on the “context”. It’s like a fever dream that it actually happened. 

 

Like, it’s insane to me. As a black person, I’m still trying to square how chilling it would be if it was posed as “genocide against black people” and the response was “it depends”. And that’s at 13% of the population… I can only imagine the psychological toll it would take to hear that as a minority that’s only 2% of the population.

 

There’s something wrong with these people 

the college campus anti-semitism hysteria being pushed by elected officials is no different than the trans or CRT hysteria. cynical misrepresentations of facts to attack cultural enemies, muddy the waters and create opportunities for high visibility virtue signaling. the college officials were obviously trying to avoid falling into the smaller trap in front them and ended up totally falling headfirst into the way bigger one, but the idea that harvard and upenn are unsafe spaces for white jews is just absurd and i know this first hand. you're cheering on the republican outrage machine you claim democrats need to fight for single party rule, remember?

 

but you know this, of course. you have no actual stake in any of this and get off on being contrarian and pushing buttons of atrl's silly sensitive tankies or whatever you think you're doing, which is fine, go off, but as a jew, it really is kind of stomach churning watching you do this on this topic.  

Edited December 9, 2023 by teresaguidice

[Eat The Acid]

5 minutes ago, Kassi said:

Is that what Hamas wants? The Arab League? The Palestinian Authority? Likud? What about the Palestinian people? What about the Israeli public?

 

If the answer from all of these parties is NO (and it is). Who do you think should step in to enforce such a state and how?

The US seems to be doing a very good job at holding up an ethnostate and apartheid state. Maybe they could use their influence and power to NOT fund and actively engage in genocide of ANY race????

[ClashAndBurn]

Average Zionist take. Almost comes across as hoping everyone ignores the obvious conclusion.

 

This is conquest, which will lead to either re-occupation or colonization and ethnic cleansing.

[venuss]

This is honestly so heartbreaking.

[ClashAndBurn]

I disagree with Kim Iversen on a lot of things, but… this. Joe Biden cheerled for a war that killed 1 million in Iraq. Instead of being brow-beaten out of public life like he deserved to be, he was embraced and elevated to becoming the Vice President.

[Kassi]

11 minutes ago, Communion said:

Religious persecution =/= the racialized and systematic execution of the global Jewish population by Nazi Germany.

What you're dabbling in is ironically deeply antisemitic by trying to conflate the horrors of the Holocaust with other time periods of repression experienced by European Jews.

 

But you do this knowingly, because if you don't spread such (ironically antisemitic) misinformation, the bar gets lowered in your argument to:

"Settler colonialism is justified if those pursuing it were repressed in some way".

 

Your logic justifies things like the colonization of the Americas by religiously persecuted pilgrims and the eventual genocide of Native American populations.

The pilgrims faced restrictions on religious practice that were enforced by harassment, fines, and occasionally imprisonment. You know, regular ****. So they sailed to the pre-established English colonies, which were sanctioned by England under the guidance of joint-stock companies, like The Virginia Company, that received charters from the English Crown. Similar to the Boers and the Dutch East India Company operating under a charter by the Dutch government. 

 

Meanwhile, Jews in Europe faced systemic and violent persecution in the form of expulsions and pogroms. Most arrived in Palestine without any citizenship to speak of whatsoever, let alone a governmental charter. These are NOT the same, omg. The fact that you would even try to conflate them is so...  

 

Also, there's nothing anti-semitic about recognizing that wanting Jews dead in Russia is the same existential threat as wanting Jews dead in Germany.

 

But maybe you could point out to everyone which of these arrows constitutes immigration and which constitutes invasion:

 

Jewish Immigration Map 1880-1924

[Kassi]

58 minutes ago, Communion said:

You were called out as peddling this inherent contradiction by suggesting Zionists buying up land in Palestine to explicitly de-populate it of the people living on it were no different than *checks notes* Guatemalan migrants in 2023 who cross the Mexico-US borders to flee ironically the kind of economic conditions US capitalism causes:

Still waiting for you to address that the government body of this "migrant population" were plotting the expulsion of Palestinians:

Oh yes, Jews legally buying, at most, 6% of the land for them to cultivate and form their immigrant communities atop is the zenith of colonization. Not, you know, the Ottoman Empire or the British Empire administering the lands from afar. 

 

And, oh no, refugees from violent pogroms dreaming of a land that didn’t forcibly expel them. Such monsters. 

[Communion]

2 minutes ago, Kassi said:

And, oh no, refugees from violent pogroms dreaming of a land that didn’t forcibly expel them. 

"The European expulsion of Ashkenazi Jews from their homes justifies the expulsion of Palestinians from their homes by settler Ashkenazi Jews"

 

Edited December 9, 2023 by Communion

[Kassi]

45 minutes ago, Eat The Acid said:

The US seems to be doing a very good job at holding up an ethnostate and apartheid state. Maybe they could use their influence and power to NOT fund and actively engage in genocide of ANY race????

So you want the US Empire to occupy Palestine and impose a one-state solution on 15 million people?

 

And this is more tenable to you than two states along pre-existing borders?

 

[Communion]

Also, of note, the constant contradictions that Zionists in their hasbara can't even keep straight.

 

One minute, the argument is that the loss of land maps are all somehow wrong because somehow land has *always* been Jewish land, that it was never Palestinian land, etc.

 

But when pointed out how this resulted in the formation of a settler colony and the documented plans for mass expulsion of Palestinians living there, it's now:

19 minutes ago, Kassi said:

legally buying, at most, 6% of the land for them to cultivate and form their immigrant communities

So what is it? Do Zionists desire to be diasporic migrant communities living within Palestine or the creation of the Jewish ethno-state of Israel (on top of Palestine)?

These things cannot both be true. They are directly at odds. Trying to convince people Zionists really wanted the former does not work with historical record.

 

Let alone... why would people who then make up less than one-third of the population and who owned not even 10% of the land then be justified to take 50% of the land that then also dramatically altered and fragmented key Palestinian agriculture and industry? Why would the 45% of Arabs set to live in the future borders of Israel be fine with the establishment of a state whose developing government leaders were vocally saying must lead to a land where no Arabs are welcome?  

 

Immigrants don't create new states on top of states. This propaganda doesn't even work. The average American under 40 - let alone person of color - does not support Israel!

 

Israel does not have the support of the Muslim world nor that of the Global South - and any sympathies weaken the more that they plow ahead with America's blessing with what is objectively an attempted genocide and ethnic cleansing. Israel does not resonate as a land of migrants or a land of refugees or a land of indigenous people to the very populations this hasbara is meant to be appealing towards. 

 

The brutalization and barbarism inherent to Israel's existence is largely supported by the kind of populations who can see themselves in either the shared role of perpetrator of settler colonial violence or the European right-wing who view Israel as the apex of "Western civilization's fight against the Muslim world". 

Edited December 9, 2023 by Communion

[Kassi]

1 hour ago, teresaguidice said:

the college campus anti-semitism hysteria being pushed by elected officials is no different than the trans or CRT hysteria. cynical misrepresentations of facts to attack cultural enemies, muddy the waters and create opportunities for high visibility virtue signaling. the college officials were obviously trying to avoid falling into the smaller trap in front them and ended up totally falling headfirst into the way bigger one, but the idea that harvard and upenn are unsafe spaces for white jews is just absurd and i know this first hand. you're cheering on the republican outrage machine you claim democrats need to fight for single party rule, remember?

 

but you know this, of course. you have no actual stake in any of this and get off on being contrarian and pushing buttons of atrl's silly sensitive tankies or whatever you think you're doing, which is fine, go off, but as a jew, it really is kind of stomach churning watching you do this on this topic.  

That's unfortunately something they will have to answer for. Whether hypothetical or not, no one in those leadership positions should ever waver on defining such basic values.

 

Literally everyone from Republicans, to Democrats, to other elite academic institutions aligns with those principles.

 

 

And yes, as someone who's lived through a genocide, I tend to have strong opinions on genocides. 

 

Nothing to do with "poasters" on a gay pop forum. You could find 7 year old threads where I've expressed the very same views on this subject. 

[Communion]

2 hours ago, teresaguidice said:

the college campus anti-semitism hysteria being pushed by elected officials is no different than the trans or CRT hysteria. cynical misrepresentations of facts to attack cultural enemies, muddy the waters and create opportunities for high visibility virtue signaling. the college officials were obviously trying to avoid falling into the smaller trap in front them and ended up totally falling headfirst into the way bigger one, but the idea that harvard and upenn are unsafe spaces for white jews is just absurd and i know this first hand. you're cheering on the republican outrage machine you claim democrats need to fight for single party rule, remember?

 

but you know this, of course. you have no actual stake in any of this and get off on being contrarian and pushing buttons of atrl's silly sensitive tankies or whatever you think you're doing, which is fine, go off, but as a jew, it really is kind of stomach churning watching you do this on this topic.  

And just like that...

 

 

[Aethereal]

Both-sides is an acceptable position as long as they need to acknowledge:

1.)  Israel started the conflict by mass displacement of Palestinians.

2.) Palestinians' number of dead victims is astronomically higher than that of Israelis.

3.) Israel has more power to soften this conflict than Palestine does and they have nothing for it. 

4.) The life of the average Israeli is like day and night compared to that of a Gazan.

 

[Ash12345]

 

[Letemtalk]

Devastation in Gaza is approaching World War II bombing levels for German cities.

 

[Harriser]

6 hours ago, Communion said:

Part of this is why it is deeply uncomfortable seeing users like @Harrier and Kassi try and - for some reason - dunk on @welham and their hopelessness over the growing hatred and anti-Arab racism flooding Israel despite them being a literal Arab citizen of Israel?? Seeing people go "you just want all of them dead!" to someone who lives amongst, with and alongside Jewish Israelis just because they feel Israeli nationalism is growing is so??? 

I am asking valid questions about people's motives for attempting to villainise civiliians, and what the potential goals for doing so might be. I understand emotionally why someone might feel hopeless right now - and perhaps that user does not have any particular goals in mind - but hopelessness is a place where some pretty dark politics can emerge. We have to vigilant against any attempt to dehumanise Palestinians, Israelis or anyone else, because that is how radical movements have justified their violence historically and is certainly how Israelis are justifying the genocide in Gaza.

 

You would have absolutely no problem calling out a Westerner member participating in rhetoric that you deem potentially dangerous - and you do constantly. You've called me a Western chauvinist, an unhinged racist etc etc over my critiques of the online left's behavior during this war. You have recently asked users in the threads about Islam in Europe, what do you support then? What parties would you vote for? Essentially the same line of argumentation I've used here. But in this case, you emotionally identity with that user and so you feel uncomfortable with me challenging their rhetoric, even though I manage to do so without being rude to them. And that isn't really an argument.

[FOCK]

Morally depraved vultures. 

[ClashAndBurn]

5 minutes ago, FOCK said:

Morally depraved vultures. 

It's almost like it was never about Hamas to begin with!

[Kassi]

6 hours ago, Communion said:

"The European expulsion of Ashkenazi Jews from their homes justifies the expulsion of Palestinians from their homes by settler Ashkenazi Jews"

 

 

6 hours ago, Communion said:

But when pointed out how this resulted in the formation of a settler colony and the documented plans for mass expulsion of Palestinians living there, it's now:

So what is it? Do Zionists desire to be diasporic migrant communities living within Palestine or the creation of the Jewish ethno-state of Israel (on top of Palestine)?

These things cannot both be true. They are directly at odds. Trying to convince people Zionists really wanted the former does not work with historical record.

 

Let alone... why would people who then make up less than one-third of the population and who owned not even 10% of the land then be justified to take 50% of the land that then also dramatically altered and fragmented key Palestinian agriculture and industry? Why would the 45% of Arabs set to live in the future borders of Israel be fine with the establishment of a state whose developing government leaders were vocally saying must lead to a land where no Arabs are welcome?  

I've already addressed this entire point in parts:

On 12/3/2023 at 1:43 PM, Kassi said:

There were also talks between Ben-Gurion and Musa Alami for an autonomous Jewish “state” around Tel-Aviv as part of a larger Arab Federation (similar to Native American reservations in the US). That also fell apart because, at the end of the day, it was always the demography (read: anti-semitism) that arguably drove the Arabs’ anxiety and angst.

 

The Jewish population doubled in the first half of the 1930s, and the Arabs were perceptive enough to realize that if things continued this way, the Jews would naturally become the majority in Palestine since they had nowhere else to go. 
 

On 12/6/2023 at 2:17 PM, Kassi said:

In "Der Judenstaat" (The Jewish State), Hertzl, the father of political Zionism, outlined his vision for a Jewish state. His writings and advocacy were rooted in the idea of creating a safe haven for Jews, emphasizing self-determination and security rather than conquest or forced displacement.

 

Israel was partially chosen because it had a sizable and relatively tolerated Jewish population. It was assumed it would be peaceful. Jewish immigration to Ottoman/Mandate Palestine was about 75 years in by the time the Holocaust happened.

But I guess you need me to spell it out for you.

 

The core Zionist plan, under threat of extinction, was always to immigrate to Palestine and, over-time, come to constitute the majority naturally. In 1934, Ben-Gurion wrote:

 

The Palestinian Arabs will not be sacrificed so that Zionism might be realized. According to our conception of Zionism, we are neither desirous nor capable of building our future in Palestine at the expense of Arabs. The Zionism of the Jewish people does not strive for the conquest of land, for domination, or for hegemony. Its aim is the realization of the Jewish people's creative potentialities, the revival of its spiritual and cultural values, the enhancement of its social and economic position, and the securing of its national independence in its own land.

 

He then negotiated with the British and Palestinians on this basis in the 10-20 years leading up to the partition.

 

In his own recount in a letter to Charles De Gaulle in 1967:

 

I never had the slightest doubt that millions of Jews could be settled in it on both sides of the Jordan without depriving a single Arab of his land, for less than ten percent of the country was then inhabited. 

 

But this country was not uninhabited [...] Obviously, the Arab residents of Palestine deserved all the rights that any citizen of a democratic country should lay claim to, nor was a Jewish State imaginable in any other form than that of a democracy.  And so I told the first Arab leader with whom I held talks, Auni Abdul Hadi, the head of the Palestinian Arstikla (Independence) Party: “We will help the Arab people to gain their independence and unite in a single Arab federation, if you in turn agree to assist us in establishing a Jewish State in Palestine on both sides of the Jordan, which would then enter into a Semitic (Arab-Jewish) federation as a sovereign state.” After discussing certain fundamental questions, Auni Abdul Hadi asked me: “How many Jews do you propose bringing to Palestine?”  “In the course of twenty years,” I answered (this was in 1934), “we will be able to bring 4 million Jews.” 

 

After protracted negotiations lasting several months, we finally reached an agreement on the basis that I had suggested.  The Mufti, however, insisted that I meet with the Syrian-Palestinian Arab Committee, whose headquarters were in Geneva, next door to the League of Nations.  If the members of the Committee were amenable, he proposed to convoke the kings of the Arab countries – Saudi Arabia, Yemen and Iraq (Egypt was not then considered an Arab country) – in order to sign an agreement with the Zionist leadership (the Jewish Agency) that could be presented to the Mandate government.

 

That same year I traveled to Europe in order to meet with the Arab Committee in Geneva. [...]  After I had briefly explained the basis of the agreement, he said to me: “You want a Jewish majority in Palestine, followed by a Jewish state; but the British will never permit you to become a majority – how then can you expect it of us Arabs?”  After further discussion of this point, during which I saw that he was not to be budged, we parted.

 

[...]

 

Meanwhile, as the Second World War drew closer, the British government changed the policies of the Mandate: after a meeting of Arabs and Jews that took place in London in 1939, it issued a white paper whose contents in effect abrogated the Mandate’s commitments by putting an end to Jewish immigration and promising the establishment of an independent Palestinian state within ten years.  But before the ten years were over, six million Jews – Jews who had needed a Jewish State more than anyone else and who had been eager and able to build it – perished at the hands of the Nazis.

 

=====

 

By concentrating exclusively on Ben Gurion's rhetoric in Israel's founding year, you're deliberately choosing to highlight the intense desperation faced by the survivors of the most extensive extermination campaign in the modern recorded history (not to speak of everything that had preceded it up to that point). And, further, using that desperation to frame Jewish asylum seekers as ontologically evil as a justification for their eradication. 

 

Think about that and ask yourself, "Why?". Maybe you don't actually believe that "A Jewish person from Antartica of all places should have the right to live in anywhere in the Middle East". Maybe you are in fact more drawn to militant nativism than you think. 

[Kassi]

TLDR; 

 

Jewish Immigrants were going to outnumber the local population, just by virtue of there being nowhere else to go. 

 

 

And the Arabs freaked out.

 

That's the entire story. 

[FOCK]

Israel is ISIS.

 

 

 

[welham]

 s

[ClashAndBurn]