news Israel-Palestine Conflict 2023/ 2024 Mega Thread

[Kassi]

16 minutes ago, Aristotle said:

Do you have evidence that Jews would not ethnic cleanse Palestinians in 1949 had the war not taken place?

 

If I recall Zionist wanted a homogenous Jewish state in Israel but they tolerate the 20% Arab minority that remain today. 

It's asking me to prove a negative. So, no, I can't definitively say that. But the best available evidence I have (on hand) is that the Jews accepted the UN Partition Plan in November 1947 (well before the war).

 

A plan that was predicated on the following demographic split:

 

Territory	Arab and other population	% Arab and other	Jewish population	% Jewish	Total population
Arab State	725,000	99%	10,000	1%	735,000
Jewish State	407,000	45%	498,000	55%	905,000
International	105,000	51%	100,000	49%	205,000
Total	1,237,000	67%	608,000	33%	1,845,000

 

Source: United Nations Special Committee of Palestine: 3 September 1947: CHAPTER 4: A COMMENTARY ON PARTITION

 

Additionally, the estimated ~200,000 Palestinians who remained within the newly found state of Israel were granted Israeli citizenship.

 

[Communion]

1 hour ago, Kassi said:

Everything I wrote is accurate and I cited my sources. 

 

The fact of the Uganda Proposal actually builds on my case in three key ways:

1. The very existence of the Uganda Proposal was an acknowledgment by a major world power, the British Empire, of the severe persecution Jews in Europe faced at the time. They just didn't want them in their country (see: Aliens Act 1905).
2. The mere consideration of the Uganda Proposal by the Zionist leadership demonstrated the desperation for an immediate safe haven for Jewish people.
3. The proposal preceding the Holocaust by forty (40) years serves as an early indicator of the impending crisis for European Jewry and the critical need for a Jewish homeland as a final refuge and a place of self-determination. As in, Zionists were right.

Except the *failure* of the Ugandan plan proves 1) that a Jewish state was not meaningfully recognized nor supported by the international community before that of the Holocaust (Britain couldn't even get its own people to want to agree to it) and 2) the hypocrisy given that white British settlers in Uganda explicitly did not become open to Jewish settlers because they as settlers themselves knew of the settler intention in Zionism and did not want to be out-settled out of their own settlement. 

 

Israel did not come into existence due to some heartaching international recognition of it as a Jewish homeland. You're suggesting the same nations who tried to pretend the Holocaust wasn't happening for as long as possible were staunch believers in Judaic religious prophecy of a divine homeland? It became a place for the West to shove Jewish populations they did not want themselves while using a peasantry farming population of Arabs as the perfect scapegoat until realizing those serfs couldn't just be bought out of moving into another country and would fight back. 

Edited December 6, 2023 by Communion

[Communion]

19 minutes ago, Kassi said:

It's asking me to prove a negative.

lol?

 

 

 

[Kassi]

1 hour ago, Communion said:

Except the *failure* of the Ugandan plan proves 1) that a Jewish state was not meaningfully recognized nor supported by the international community before that of the Holocaust (Britain couldn't even get its own people to want to agree to it) and 2) the hypocrisy given that white British settlers in Uganda explicitly did not become open to Jewish settlers because they as settlers themselves knew of the settler intention in Zionism and did not want to be out-settled out of their own settlement. 

 

Israel did not come into existence due to some heartaching international recognition of it as a Jewish homeland. You're suggesting the same nations who tried to pretend the Holocaust wasn't happening for as long as possible were staunch believers in Judaic religious prophecy of a divine homeland? It became a place for the West to shove Jewish populations they did not want themselves while using a peasantry farming population of Arabs as the perfect scapegoat until realizing those serfs couldn't just be bought out of moving into another country and would fight back. 

Uganda failed because Zionist Jews felt no historical, cultural, or religious affinity to the place. So the proposal fizzled out.

 

I've already stated that Israel came about as:

• a concession to the idea that an outside party, the British, could not obligate people to participate non-violently in plurinationalism... without becoming the Ottoman Empire.

By then, the British were exhausted from two World Wars and had started re-evaluating all of their imperial commitments (e.g. Indian Independence Act of 1947). The rising violence between Jewish and Arab communities in Palestine, along with international pressure to avoid a second Holocaust, led the British to refer the Palestine question to the United Nations in 1947, effectively signaling their inability to impose a solution and their unwillingness to step into a "direct rule" role similar to that of the Ottoman Empire.

 

All I wrote about Zionism is to explain how that small group of refuge-seeking Jewish* immigrants got to Palestine in the first place.

 

Maybe they were delusional about their storybook, as you and I both seem to agree that 3,000 year old ancestral claims to land are dubious. Maybe they were desperate from being routinely massacred. Maybe their iPhone GPS broke and they got lost on their way to Uganda. The point is that they were there, no different than the 11 million illegal immigrants currently in the US.

 

*Mind you, we're still talking about just 5% of the world's Jewry at the time.

[Kassi]

1 hour ago, Communion said:

lol?

 

 

 

Then, after 10 years of bullshit, everyone was tired.

 

Ben-Gurion said this specifically about the actual UN 1947 partition plan:

 

"When we agreed to the Partition Plan, we accepted it in all honesty. We did this not because the plan was good or just, but because a small area received through peaceful means was preferable to us than a large area won by fighting"

 

Source: Shalom, Zaki. David Ben-Gurion, the State of Israel and the Arab World, 1949-1956. Sussex Academic Press, 2002, p. 151.

 

Unfortunately, by February 1948 the fighting had broken out on account of Arab's rejection of the plan.

[FOCK]

…

 

 

 

[Communion]

28 minutes ago, Kassi said:

Uganda failed because Zionist Jews felt no historical, cultural, or religious affinity to the place. So the proposal fizzled out.

This is not true. The plan didn't "fizzle out". It was rejected. British settlers in Uganda told the British government and the Zionists it advocated for no. 

 

If you want something, and I tell you "no", you didn't "decide" to not have it - you were denied it despite wanting it. Zionists getting their 1st choice years later, as opposed to the 4th or 5th, *explicitly* due to the drastically changing circumstances doesn't change the point you're for some reason trying to deny.

 

 

Israel would not have come into existence if it were not for the realities of the Holocaust. I'm not even sure why you try to deny this when most support for Israel across the globe is tied to the Holocaust and the horrors Jewish people faced during it. It's literally a lack of self-awareness that you think trying to deny this will end the image in most people's minds of Zionism as an explicitly *Ashkenazi* movement from *Europe*. The reality of Jewish suffering is more compelling than blood and soil skull measuring. 

 

Such arguments are likely made by Zionists today because the argument has changed from "the world's Jewish population needs a home due to what they've been through" to "what Israeli is having to do to those Muslim terrorist mongrels is nothing compared to what the Jewish people have been through!!". Maybe phrenology is a more compelling argument to land ownership than moral suffering when said group begins inflicting immeasurable suffering onto others themselves?

 

39 minutes ago, Kassi said:

The point is that they were there, no different than the 11 million illegal immigrants currently in the US.

This is an obscene and tone-deaf comparison to make, let alone the horrific implications. Where are Latin Americans in the US demanding the partitioning of the entire South?

[Communion]

46 minutes ago, Kassi said:

the actual UN 1947 partition plan

David Ben-Gurion, December 1947, arguing that the UN partition plan would not satisfy the needs of a Jewish state:

 

 

[Karla Cabello]

 

[DAP]

Is that right? 

 

[Kassi]

1 hour ago, Communion said:

This is not true. The plan didn't "fizzle out". It was rejected. British settlers in Uganda told the British government and the Zionists it advocated for no. 

 

If you want something, and I tell you "no", you didn't "decide" to not have it - you were denied it despite wanting it. Zionists getting their 1st choice years later, as opposed to the 4th or 5th, *explicitly* due to the drastically changing circumstances doesn't change the point you're for some reason trying to deny.

 

[tweets]

 

Israel would not have come into existence if it were not for the realities of the Holocaust. I'm not even sure why you try to deny this when most support for Israel across the globe is tied to the Holocaust and the horrors Jewish people faced during it. It's literally a lack of self-awareness that you think trying to deny this will end the image in most people's minds of Zionism as an explicitly *Ashkenazi* movement from *Europe*. The reality of Jewish suffering is more compelling than blood and soil skull measuring. 

 

Such arguments are likely made by Zionists today because the argument has changed from "the world's Jewish population needs a home due to what they've been through" to "what Israeli is having to do to those Muslim terrorist mongrels is nothing compared to what the Jewish people have been through!!". Maybe phrenology is a more compelling argument to land ownership than moral suffering when said group begins inflicting immeasurable suffering onto others themselves?

Let's grant that you're 100% correct, whether it was Uganda or any of the other regions in that list being considered, it's the "Why?" that matters. And that why is simply: to avoid being murdered.

 

As such, I have never denied that the Holocaust played a part in Israel's existence.

 

Like I said:

 

8 hours ago, Kassi said:

The establishment of Israel was a historical necessity, born out of the blood and tears of the Jewish diaspora. The relentless atrocities endured by Jews across centuries galvanized the international community to recognize the urgent need for a secure, permanent homeland for them. This was not just a response to the Holocaust but a culmination of a long history of suffering and displacement.

 

-----

 

1 hour ago, Communion said:

This is an obscene and tone-deaf comparison to make, let alone the horrific implications. Where are Latin Americans in the US demanding the partitioning of the entire South?

The paths of Jewish refugees, diverging towards destinations like the United States, the United Kingdom, or Palestine, were all traced from a similar origin - a coerced departure from their homes (Poland, Germany, Russia, etc) under the same external oppressive forces.

 

Unless you can definitively say that US Jews in the early 1900s were not immigrants, then the comparison is apt.

[Kassi]

1 hour ago, Communion said:

David Ben-Gurion, December 1947, arguing that the UN partition plan would not satisfy the needs of a Jewish state:

 

 

And yet we'll never know the true outcome because the Arab Palestinians did NOT accept the UN resolution.

 

What we do know is that five (5) Arab Muslim ethnostates descended on a nascent Jewish, internationally sanctioned, state to finish the job Hitler started (per the Grand Mufti of Palestine, Amin al-Husseini).

 

Which leads us to the unfortunate disaster we find ourselves in today. 

[ClashAndBurn]

15 minutes ago, Kassi said:

And yet we'll never know the true outcome because the Arab Palestinians did NOT accept the UN resolution.

 

What we do know is that five (5) Arab Muslim ethnostates descended on a nascent Jewish, internationally sanctioned, state to finish the job Hitler started (per the Grand Mufti of Palestine, Amin al-Husseini).

 

Which leads us to the unfortunate disaster we find ourselves in today. 

Why would Arabs accept a resolution from white Europeans stripping land from them, ethnically cleansing them from the region, and setting it aside for colonizers?

 

The international community is a joke with zero legitimacy. The international community recognized and supported apartheid in South Africa and Rhodesia as well, so to hide behind the UN (which exists as a tool to legitimize US imperialism above all else) is ludicrous on your part.

[GhostBox]

hamas really care about their citizens 💀

[ClashAndBurn]

15 hours ago, A.R.L said:

The only solutions for long term peace are:

1- recognize the state of Israel

2- give the Jews Jerusalem since they were there first, but with guaranteed rights for the freedoms of religion for Christians and Muslims.

3- Get rid of the right-wing party in Israel

4- Get rid of corruption among Palestinian leaders, that would be quite difficult, since it’s s common in that entire region, not only in Palestine. Before some of you jump to tell me about the corruption of Israeli leaders, yes, that's true and they must be accountable for it, but let's be honest, Israel is more developed and people have access to better rights, including Muslim migrants.

Pretty much all of this list are things Israel wants, so they give up nothing and gain everything. Wow, what an amazing deal!  

 

Likud is never going away, and is greatly empowered if anything. Clownery to even suggest this  

[RihRihGirrrl]

Zio-nazism....just came across this term and I'll be using it 

[Kassi]

1 hour ago, ClashAndBurn said:

Why would Arabs accept a resolution from white Europeans stripping land from them, ethnically cleansing them from the region, and setting it aside for colonizers?

Quickly, which nation served as the metropole for these colonizers?

[ClashAndBurn]

18 minutes ago, Kassi said:

Quickly, which nation served as the metropole for these colonizers?

It’s actually amazing to watch a stan of a proud black woman whose built her imagery on black power activism for several eras go out of their way to promote settler-colonialism and apartheid as necessities.  

 

Britain claimed the British Mandate of Palestine as war spoils following the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, but that doesn’t make the land rightfully theirs to partition how they and other white Europeans see fit.

[Kassi]

1 hour ago, ClashAndBurn said:

Britain claimed the British Mandate of Palestine as war spoils following the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, but that doesn’t make the land rightfully theirs to partition how they and other white Europeans see fit.

Agreed. And, consequently, the British didn't partition a damn thing. They quite literally shrugged their shoulders and dipped. Even abstained from the UN vote.

 

Settler colonialism makes sense in the United States and Australia, but the analogy thins when applied to Jews who arrived in the land that would become Israel without any citizenship whatsoever, neither from Europe nor the Islamic world.

 

Why would you want to have prolonged ethnic violence against immigrants, such as those perpetrated in the Arab Revolts of the 1920s and 30s?

[rihannafan]

It is so obvious that a certain someone here read the Wikipedia page about this conflict on October 7

[FOCK]

When your own lies work against you, so you’re forced to backtrack.

 

 

 

[ClashAndBurn]

55 minutes ago, Kassi said:

Why would you want to have prolonged ethnic violence against immigrants, such as those perpetrated in the Arab Revolts of the 1920s and 30s?

Why would you want to have prolonged occupation and ethnic violence against indigenous populations who lived in the region for centuries and were displaced in order to fulfill the farfetched conditions of an Evangelical prophecy?

 

Palestinians are denied right of return and are literally interned in an open-air prison, and you and the rest of the American liberals seem to be more than okay with their subjugation and slaughter. The siege of Gaza has greatly surpassed the proportionality of October 7th in terms of death and destruction, and 98% of Israeli Jews want more Gazans to be slain. Nearly 60% of them think Netanyahu isn't being brutal enough. And that is the side that America is eagerly doing all it can to empower to kill and destroy even more.

[Aethereal]

IDF claims that 5,000 of 15,000 dead Palestinians are Hamas casualties. I mean that is better than for them to be civilians but I don't believe it in the slightest. They are lying through their teeth. 

[ClashAndBurn]

With Genocide Joe’s approval. 
 

Remember that.

[Kassi]

52 minutes ago, ClashAndBurn said:

Why would you want to have prolonged occupation and ethnic violence against indigenous populations who lived in the region for centuries and were displaced in order to fulfill the farfetched conditions of an Evangelical prophecy?

 

Palestinians are denied right of return and are literally interned in an open-air prison, and you and the rest of the American liberals seem to be more than okay with their subjugation and slaughter.

I don't want prolonged occupation and violence.

 

That's why Hamas should surrender unconditionally to pave way for a wholly reconstituted government that prioritizes diplomatic recognition of and peaceful coexistence with Israel.

 

52 minutes ago, ClashAndBurn said:

The siege of Gaza has greatly surpassed the proportionality of October 7th in terms of death and destruction, and 98% of Israeli Jews want more Gazans to be slain. Nearly 60% of them think Netanyahu isn't being brutal enough. And that is the side that America is eagerly doing all it can to empower to kill and destroy even more.

The extent of civilian casualties in the conflict with Hamas will largely depend on how swiftly Hamas engages in peace negotiations or decides to cease hostilities.

 

Following this phase, attention will shift to neutralizing the influence of the current Palestinian leadership, facilitating the reconstruction of Gaza, and weaving Palestinians more integrally into the regional political tapestry.

 

This approach mirrors the steps taken in the post-World War II reformation of Germany and Japan, where military de-escalation was followed by political reform and economic rebuilding to establish long-term stability.