news Israel-Palestine Conflict 2023/ 2024 Mega Thread

[Delirious]

You're just pissed now that I'm bringing your past history about China. 

 

You're definitely the last person on ATRL who anyone should be taking taking notes from.

[Communion]

12 minutes ago, Delirious said:

I've already said many times that I condemn the actions of Israel

I totally believe someone who has posts upon posts from the past of highlighting Palestine as a "barbaric Muslim country" 100% isn't posting pro-Israel propaganda for nefarious reasons, and they themselves care about Muslims being brutalized, totally.

[Delirious]

3 minutes ago, Communion said:

I totally believe someone who has posts upon posts from the past of highlighting Palestine as a "barbaric Muslim country" 100% isn't posting pro-Israel propaganda for nefarious reasons, and they themselves care about Muslims being brutalized, totally.

Do you think I really care what you have to say Mr. Ughur genocide denier?

[Kassi]

25 minutes ago, SmittenCake said:

I don't know what's up with the influx of people with Ukrainian flags being pro-Israel and justifying this continuous war + invasion. Make it make sense. 

Not complicated, Russia was the aggressor and Hamas was the aggressor. 

[SmittenCake]

1 minute ago, Kassi said:

Not complicated, Russia was the aggressor and Hamas was the aggressor. 

Has israel not been the aggressor for 70+ years? 

[BionicWooHoo]

27 minutes ago, Delirious said:

"Reads story with some of the most most horrific, unimaginable witness accounts in modern history --> proceeds to whatabout the living hell out of said atrocities with unsubstantiated claims in order to divert the argument and justify the perpetrators

 

It happened. It's still happening to some of the hostages. NOTHING justifies it. Get your head out of your little bubble and step out of your echo chamber!!"

So basically you want the world to say the world to just say they condemn Hamas but you don’t want anything done to stop future rapes. Gotcha. 
 

You wanna talk about “rAPe Is BaD” but don’t wanna say analyze what caused said rapes in order to prevent them from happening to anyone else. Worms for brains truly.

[Kassi]

Just now, SmittenCake said:

Has israel not been the aggressor for 70+ years? 

Did you miss the part where five (5) Arab nations declared war on a nascent nation?

[SmittenCake]

1 minute ago, Kassi said:

Did you miss the part where five (5) Arab nations declared war on a nascent nation?

So you think isreali occupation is justified? 

[Kassi]

3 minutes ago, SmittenCake said:

So you think isreali occupation is justified? 

I think Jews should be able to live free of harm and persecution in their own country.

[SmittenCake]

1 minute ago, Kassi said:

I think Jews should be able to live free of harm and persecution in their own country.

Jews were welcome to Palestine when they needed to seek refuge. The UN didn't want to help them after WW. Then the zionists had their own vision.

 

Why not have a state for them in America? they fly back and to from the states anyways since Palestine is not their actual homeland.

 

 

[Kassi]

4 minutes ago, SmittenCake said:

Jews were welcome to Palestine when they needed to seek refuge. The UN didn't want to help them after WW. Then the zionists had their own vision.

 

Why not have a state for them in America? they fly back and to from the states anyways since Palestine is not their actual homeland.

 

 

Jewish immigration 1900-1948:

• To America: ~2,000,000
• To UK: ~1,000,000
• To Palestine: ~300k

And they faced discrimination in each country.
 

For example, in America, it was: “No blacks, no Jews, no Dogs”. They fought back with the creation of the Anti-Defamation League.

 

In Palestine, they fought back with whatever little means they had.

 

Where is their homeland?

[SmittenCake]

9 minutes ago, Kassi said:

 

 

Where is their homeland?

california and new york 

[Kassi]

15 minutes ago, SmittenCake said:

california and new york 

None of the Jews who found Israel had ever set foot in America.

 

So, again, where is their homeland?

[FOCK]

Sick society. 
 

 

[FOCK]

 

[Communion]

43 minutes ago, Kassi said:

So, again, where is their homeland?

Religions don't have homelands. There is no central Jewish homeland, just like there is no Islamic or Christian homeland. This is most easily understood when recognizing that most Jewish people in the Levant eventually converted to Christianity, and then converted to Islam (and then became culturally Arab - suggesting anyone can actually have evidence of a 3,000 year old ancestor being in itself a ridiculous concept in general).

 

Individual Jewish groups have their home in where their populations have existed the longest. European racialized antisemitism making that impossible for European Jewish groups is not carte blanche to then suppose secular ideas for religious prophecy.

 

This is why the concept of a Jewish homeland is not an sociological one - it is a religious one, no different from the Islamic concept of the caliphate.

 

It is a question of theology and prophecy (some of your talking points make me *extremely* uncomfortable and curious just what your own religious background is with the copy+paste nature of the arguments being made - would be awful to think you're only going this hard for Israelis because you think Jewish people are part of some macro-religious scheme to bring the anti-Christ to Earth and let God's ~TRUE~ chosen people ascend to heaven, leaving Jews and all other "non-believers" to burn in the flames of what is left of the world....). 

 

There is no existing amorphous population that can claim ancestral possession of the Levant, let alone one on the basis of a delusional religious prophecy.

 

Even Palestinian's claims to Palestine are not ancestral - it's that they were literally the current people there when the colonization attempt began and that even "dirt poor farmhand peasant serfs" (as Zionists call them) have the right to not be uprooted and massively displaced by landlords.

Edited December 6, 2023 by Communion

[Kassi]

16 minutes ago, Communion said:

Religions don't have homelands. This is most easily understood when recognizing that most Jewish people in the Levant eventually converted to Christianity, and then converted to Islam, and then became culturally Arab. (suggesting anyone can actually have an evidence of a 3,000 year old ancestral connection being in itself a ridiculous concept in general).

 

This is why the concept of a Jewish homeland is not an sociological one - it is a religious one, no different from the Islamic concept of the caliphate.

 

It is a question of theology and prophecy (some of your talking points make me *extremely* curious just what your own religious background is with the copy+paste nature of the arguments made - would be awful to think you're only going this hard for Israelis because you think Jewish people are part of some macro-religious scheme to bring the anti-Christ to Earth and let God's ~TRUE~ chosen people ascend to heaven, leaving Jews and all other "non-believers" to burn in the flames of what is left of the world....). 

 

There is no existing amorphous population that can claim ancestral possession of the Levant, let alone one on the basis of a delusional religious prophecy. Even Palestinian's claims to being allowed to remain in Palestine are not ancestral - it's that they were literally the current people living them when the colonization attempt began and that even "dirt poor farmland peasant serfs" (as Zionists call them) have the right to not be uprooted and massively displaced by landlords.

Your main points are:

• Religions don’t have homelands
• Historical claims to land based on ancient connections are dubious
• Palestian claims are based on their continuous residence in the area

I agree with all of it.

 

That said, people do have homelands.
 

So, again, where is their homeland?

[Communion]

15 minutes ago, Kassi said:

Your main points are:

• Religions don’t have homelands
• Historical claims to land based on ancient connections are dubious
• Palestian claims are based on their continuous residence in the area

I agree with all of it.

 

That said, people do have homelands.
 

So, again, where is their homeland?

You don't agree with any of what I'm saying because you're using "their" - as bolded - to be purposefully ambiguous.

 

There is no Jewish homeland aka a land for "all Jewish people". There is not a singular place all of the world's Jewish population is entitled to via mass displacement of others, just as the concept of a caliphate for which all of the world's Muslims will rule over non-believers is a similarly asinine concept. And offensive to claim as a progressive concept. If one wants to die on the hill of fundamentalist, deeply conservative interpretations of religion, they should own just what their actual movement is.

 

Palestinians whose families were displaced from Palestine by Israeli occupation have the right to return to Palestine. The UN has recognized this.

 

If Israelis currently living in Israel would like to continue to live there and live there in peace and free from the cycle of violence, it seems clear that they must abandon the ethno-nationalist project of Zionism. Zionists do not have a homeland. The existence of a Jewish diaspora does not entitle Zionists to perpetuate an ethno-state with an artificial ethnic majority that rules over and subjugates all other ethnicities.

 

Zionists who will end up fleeing Palestine and whatever becomes of Israel because of the eventual demographic changes are not a people without a homeland for whom we should be guilted into feeling sympathy for; they're a settler fleeing a failed colony. 

Edited December 6, 2023 by Communion

[Kassi]

36 minutes ago, Communion said:

You don't agree with any of what I'm saying because you're using "their" - as bolded - to be purposefully ambiguous.

 

There is no Jewish homeland aka a land for "all Jewish people". There is not a singular place all of the world's Jewish population is entitled to via mass displacement of others.

@SmittenCake used “their”, I simply asked for clarification using their words. 

 

Still, I agree that, to repeat your words, there is not a singular place all of the world’s Jewish population is entitled to via mass displacement of others.

 

You’ll be glad to know that in 1948, the Jewish population of Israel constituted just 5% of all Jews worldwide, dwarfed by the communities in:

• North America - 50%
• Europe - 30%
• Middle East (excluding Israel) and North Africa - 10%
• Latin America, Asia, other - 5%

So where do you think these Jews belonged?

[Ash12345]

Just thought I'd drop this if anyone here wants a decent audience for your arguments instead of arguing with the same 5 people on ATRL.

 

Speak The Truth Podcast's co-host Matt Tardio is doing a call-in show. He's pro-IDF and wants to find anti-IDF/anti-Israel people to discuss things with, and is willing to talk to anonymous randos. As far as podcasts willing to take random calls go, his reach is pretty decent, around 20-30k Youtube views per livestream.

 

The number is 469-485-3145. At least that's what the number was for today's live show.

 

Tomorrow's show will probably be in the afternoon (CST) - based off when he usually livestreams. He announces the call in show at 38:32 on today's livestream. At 2:49:52 he mentions tomorrow's show.

[Communion]

21 minutes ago, Kassi said:

Still, I agree that, to repeat your words

Nope, sorry, can't out-gotcha a gotcha-er.  If you purposefully erase my points, I'm just going to reiterate them to highlight you're avoiding reconciling your obscure questions with the facts being presented to you.

 

54 minutes ago, Communion said:

You don't agree with any of what I'm saying because you're using "their" - as bolded - to be purposefully ambiguous.

 

There is no Jewish homeland aka a land for "all Jewish people". There is not a singular place all of the world's Jewish population is entitled to via mass displacement of others, just as the concept of a caliphate for which all of the world's Muslims will rule over non-believers is a similarly asinine concept. And offensive to claim as a progressive concept. If one wants to die on the hill of fundamentalist, deeply conservative interpretations of religion, they should own just what their actual movement is.

 

Palestinians whose families were displaced from Palestine by Israeli occupation have the right to return to Palestine. The UN has recognized this.

 

If Israelis currently living in Israel would like to continue to live there and live there in peace and free from the cycle of violence, it seems clear that they must abandon the ethno-nationalist project of Zionism. Zionists do not have a homeland. The existence of a Jewish diaspora does not entitle Zionists to perpetuate an ethno-state with an artificial ethnic majority that rules over and subjugates all other ethnicities.

 

Zionists who will end up fleeing Palestine and whatever becomes of Israel because of the eventual demographic changes are not a people without a homeland for whom we should be guilted into feeling sympathy for; they're a settler fleeing a failed colony. 

Israelis are the citizens of Israel. Israel shouldn't exist as an ethno-state whose governmental foundation is the subjugation of Palestinians.

 

If some subset of those citizens do not want to live in a country where they are not subjugating Palestinians, no one will be tricked into thinking these people are entitled to a place with the racial, apartheid politics they desire. If they don't like equality, leave!

Edited December 6, 2023 by Communion

[Kassi]

2 minutes ago, Communion said:

Nope, sorry, can't out-gotcha a gotcha-er. If you purposefully erase my points, I'm just going to reiterate them to highlight you're avoiding reconciling your obscure questions with the facts being presented to you.

Ok, let me instead build off of your closing paragraph:
 

“Zionists who will end up fleeing Palestine and whatever becomes of Israel because of the eventual demographic changes are not a people without a homeland for whom we should be guilted into feeling sympathy for; they're a settler fleeing a failed colony.”

 

What is the metropole of this failed colony? 

[FOCK]

“Where do Jews go?” is a bad faith & misdirecting question that bolsters the false belief that Palestinians want the eradication of Jews & presupposes an inherent “hatred” based on their identity. 
 

It’s a ridiculous question to entertain.

 

1. Christian & Muslim Palestinians do not deny that the land is the birthplace of Judaism 

2. Islam specifically acknowledges all “people of the book”, including the Torah, Bible & Quran & the fact that Jews will live in that land 

3. Palestinians have lived in community with displaced Jews & Jews native to the region

4. Palestinian’s struggle isn’t against Jews or Judaism, it’s against colonisers and illegal occupiers - regardless of how they identify - many Jews in Israel are secular atheists or converts

5. They’re fine to live there, alongside Palestinians, what they’re not entitled to do, is what they’ve done for the last 75 years & counting

[Communion]

15 minutes ago, Kassi said:

Ok, let me instead build off of your closing paragraph

 

24 minutes ago, Communion said:

Israelis are the citizens of Israel. Israel shouldn't exist as an ethno-state whose governmental foundation is the subjugation of Palestinians.

 

If some subset of those citizens do not want to live in a country where they are not subjugating Palestinians, no one will be tricked into thinking these people are entitled to a place with the racial, apartheid politics they desire. If they don't like equality, leave!

.

[Kassi]

9 minutes ago, FOCK said:

“Where do Jews go?” is a bad faith & misdirecting question that bolsters the false belief that Palestinians want the eradication of Jews & presupposes an inherent “hatred” based on their identity. 
 

It’s a ridiculous question to entertain.

 

1. Christian & Muslim Palestinians do not deny that the land is the birthplace of Judaism 

2. Islam specifically acknowledges all “people of the book”, including the Torah, Bible & Quran & the fact that Jews will live in that land 

3. Palestinians have lived in community with displaced Jews & Jews native to the region

4. Palestinian’s struggle isn’t against Jews or Judaism, it’s against colonisers and illegal occupiers - regardless of how they identify - many Jews in Israel are secular atheists or converts

5. They’re fine to live there, alongside Palestinians, what they’re not entitled to do, is what they’ve done for the last 75 years & counting

I’m not asking “Where do Jews go?”

 

I’m asking “Where did Jews come from?”

 

It’s a very simple question.