news Israel-Palestine Conflict 2023/ 2024 Mega Thread

[Communion]

1 hour ago, CroNich said:

Sorry for my ignorance but was Osama a Arab socialists? His letter gives the impression he was very much for the people. So much to unpack there.

No, he came from a rich Saudi family and hated socialism. His family is literally connected to the inner circles of Saudi royalty. And no need for feeling ignorant. I can only give my perspective as a white American socialist. I'm just as ignorant.

 

But that's why I mention the Mujahideen. He became a militant part of a wider group who supported right-wing pan-Islamism, largely in the context of being at odds with pan-Arab Socialism. The US and other Western powers supported various Islamist groups within the Middle East in the 70s and into the 80s because they believed that doing so would harm the Soviet Union, which was allied with governments like the PDPA in Afghanistan and led into the greater Afghan-Soviet war.

 

And there's the adage of how essentially the forces America supported in the Cold War (political Islam) decades later grew into the movement that then committed 9/11 (Bin Laden being a symbol for extremist Wahhabism). Wahhabists really being the first to call for greater Jihad on a global scale against "the far enemy", whereas even now groups like the Taliban largely see themselves as using Islam as a political organization tool, with "smaller" aims, like being the government of Afghanistan, for example.

 

For all the ways liberals refer to Hamas or the PIJ (despite their names) as Islamists, the difference between them and groups like the Taliban who utilize Islam as a political tool, and then outright extremist jihadists like al-Qaeda or ISIS, are overtly clear. Hamas of course commits violence, and are a Muslim group, but its actions are in the name of Palestinian liberation. Such differentiating is, from what people have said, why secular and left-wing Palestinian groups continue to work with Hamas. 

 

Many historians now and at the time of the letter criticize bin Laden as disingenuous and exploiting the suffering of Palestinians as a backdrop to convince Arabs that pan-Islamism is needed, despite that he never organized resistance against Israel, nor called for any forces to go after Tel Aviv or Jerusalem. That bin Laden himself was a far-right extremist who believed in a puritanical form of Islam that most of the Islamic world does not believe in, willing to hurt many Arabs and Muslims in his militancy.

 

Of course there's lots of history across many of these countries separate from the West, like whether the PDPA lacking popular support or not when it overthrew Daud was going to cause instability regardless of if the Soviets came to help, or how ethnic separatism has impacted Afghanistan and Pakistan for decades (I have, at best, a minimal understanding of what Pashtun & Baloch nationalists believe, let alone the view of some of Arabs as a colonizing force), and the expansive political histories of other nations in the region. Much of this I don't really possess the foresight or understand to speak on beyond a distant awareness in its impact on America.

 

But in the context of America, it goes back to neo-conservatives and their unapologetic support for this kind of foreign policy (supporting Islamist forces over secular governments that sought political allyship with the Soviet Union).

 

We now get the same neo-cons feigning outrage that Osama bin Laden's letter is viral (largely because I don't think many Americans understand that criticisms of Israel in open public discourse were happening in 2001). And that many Americans simply don't possess the proper context to understand why the words of a Wahhabist defending Palestine are disingenuous and self-serving because the Arab leftists and socialists who could speak on the harms pan-Islamism has caused were themselves repressed by Western powers more than willing to make allies out of Islamists. 

Edited November 16, 2023 by Communion

[CroNich]

40 minutes ago, Communion said:

No, he came from a rich Saudi family and hated socialism. His family is literally connected to the inner circles of Saudi royalty. And no need for feeling ignorant. I can only give my perspective as a white American socialist. I'm just as ignorant.

 

But that's why I mention the Mujahideen. He became a militant part of a wider group who supported right-wing pan-Islamism, largely in the context of being at odds with pan-Arab Socialism. The US and other Western powers supported various Islamist groups within the Middle East in the 70s and into the 80s because they believed that doing so would harm the Soviet Union, which was allied with governments like the PDPA in Afghanistan and led into the greater Afghan-Soviet war.

 

And there's the adage of how essentially the forces America supported in the Cold War (political Islam) decades later grew into the movement that then committed 9/11 (Bin Laden being a symbol for extremist Wahhabism). Wahhabists really being the first to call for greater Jihad on a global scale against "the far enemy", whereas even now groups like the Taliban largely see themselves as using Islam as a political organization tool, with "smaller" aims, like being the government of Afghanistan, for example.

 

For all the ways liberals refer to Hamas or the PIJ (despite their names) as Islamists, the difference between them and groups like the Taliban who utilize Islam as a political tool, and then outright extremist jihadists like al-Qaeda or ISIS, are overtly clear. Hamas of course commits violence, and are a Muslim group, but its actions are in the name of Palestinian liberation. Such differentiating is, from what people have said, why secular and left-wing Palestinian groups continue to work with Hamas. 

 

Many historians now and at the time of the letter criticize bin Laden as disingenuous and exploiting the suffering of Palestinians as a backdrop to convince Arabs that pan-Islamism is needed, despite that he never organized resistance against Israel, nor called for any forces to go after Tel Aviv or Jerusalem. That bin Laden himself was a far-right extremist who believed in a puritanical form of Islam that most of the Islamic world does not believe in, willing to hurt many Arabs and Muslims in his militancy.

 

Of course there's lots of history across many of these countries separate from the West, like whether the PDPA lacking popular support or not when it overthrew Daud was going to cause instability regardless of if the Soviets came to help, or how ethnic separatism has impacted Afghanistan and Pakistan for decades (I have, at best, a minimal understanding of what Pashtun & Baloch nationalists believe, let alone the view of some of Arabs as a colonizing force), and the expansive political histories of other nations in the region. Much of this I don't really possess the foresight or understand to speak on beyond a distant awareness in its impact on America.

 

But in the context of America, it goes back to neo-conservatives and their unapologetic support for this kind of foreign policy (supporting Islamist forces over secular governments that sought political allyship with the Soviet Union).

 

We now get the same neo-cons feigning outrage that Osama bin Laden's letter is viral (largely because I don't think many Americans understand that criticisms of Israel in open public discourse were happening in 2001). And that many Americans simply don't possess the proper context to understand why the words of a Wahhabist defending Palestine are disingenuous and self-serving because the Arab leftists and socialists who could speak on the harms pan-Islamism has caused were themselves repressed by Western powers more than willing to make allies out of Islamists. 

Thank you so much. I think I understand most of this lol.

 

Just sounds like a giant ******* mess that America has continuously fuelled and worsened every time they've gotten involved (which is now clear has always been for their own self-interests). 

 

Also in the context of everything you mentioned above how Osama's letter could be perceived as self-serving and weaponising the Palestinian struggle in the name of Pan-Islamics, does the letter actually carry that much importance and weight today? Should it be going for viral for the reasons it is?

 

 

Edited November 16, 2023 by CroNich

[FOCK]

… 

[RihRihGirrrl]

9 minutes ago, FOCK said:

… 

Vile trash

[Communion]

1 hour ago, More Than A Melody said:

I really need to do a deep dive on the whole Arab socialism and Bin Laden thing @Communion mentioned. It's before I was born and I don't know that I've ever read anything about it. Any sources to recommend? Video, audio, and reading material are all okay.

Much of my understanding of the discussions we’re having - largely linked by America’s War on Terror - unfortunately come from a lot of progressive media that has since been taken off air, though much of it is still archived. Obviously some people will have issue with TeleSUR, being funded by left-wing governments in Latin America, in the way that Qatar funds Al Jazeera, but Abby Martin is someone I’d recommend looking into and the work she has produced since 2010. Her work on TeleSUR was reasonably better than on RT. 

 

The Intercept was similarly a reliable publication for coverage on America’s foreign policy pre-Sanders 2016, since it seems to have taken a morel liberal, pro-Democrat turn, especially 2020 going forward. I’d also recommend keeping up with the work of Vijay Prashad. Of course my views are simply just rooted in being an American focused on American foreign policy (largely the War on Terror as a millennial) and working backwards to fill in the gaps of how and why such is how America operates. 

 

I'm sure there are much more informed leftists, socialists, etc. from many parts of the world discussed here who can offer far more informed recommendations on important voices to listen to and getting a leftist historical understanding of specific geopolitical issues on. I definitely urge whoever to recommend other sources since any common sources I would even know to offer are unfortunately Western-based in itself.

Edited November 16, 2023 by Communion

[Harrier]

1 hour ago, Communion said:

No, he came from a rich Saudi family and hated socialism. His family is literally connected to the inner circles of Saudi royalty. And no need for feeling ignorant. I can only give my perspective as a white American socialist. I'm just as ignorant.

 

But that's why I mention the Mujahideen. He became a militant part of a wider group who supported right-wing pan-Islamism, largely in the context of being at odds with pan-Arab Socialism. The US and other Western powers supported various Islamist groups within the Middle East in the 70s and into the 80s because they believed that doing so would harm the Soviet Union, which was allied with governments like the PDPA in Afghanistan and led into the greater Afghan-Soviet war.

 

And there's the adage of how essentially the forces America supported in the Cold War (political Islam) decades later grew into the movement that then committed 9/11 (Bin Laden being a symbol for extremist Wahhabism). Wahhabists really being the first to call for greater Jihad on a global scale against "the far enemy", whereas even now groups like the Taliban largely see themselves as using Islam as a political organization tool, with "smaller" aims, like being the government of Afghanistan, for example.

 

For all the ways liberals refer to Hamas or the PIJ (despite their names) as Islamists, the difference between them and groups like the Taliban who utilize Islam as a political tool, and then outright extremist jihadists like al-Qaeda or ISIS, are overtly clear. Hamas of course commits violence, and are a Muslim group, but its actions are in the name of Palestinian liberation. Such differentiating is, from what people have said, why secular and left-wing Palestinian groups continue to work with Hamas. 

 

Many historians now and at the time of the letter criticize bin Laden as disingenuous and exploiting the suffering of Palestinians as a backdrop to convince Arabs that pan-Islamism is needed, despite that he never organized resistance against Israel, nor called for any forces to go after Tel Aviv or Jerusalem. That bin Laden himself was a far-right extremist who believed in a puritanical form of Islam that most of the Islamic world does not believe in, willing to hurt many Arabs and Muslims in his militancy.

 

Of course there's lots of history across many of these countries separate from the West, like whether the PDPA lacking popular support or not when it overthrew Daud was going to cause instability regardless of if the Soviets came to help, or how ethnic separatism has impacted Afghanistan and Pakistan for decades (I have, at best, a minimal understanding of what Pashtun & Baloch nationalists believe, let alone the view of some of Arabs as a colonizing force), and the expansive political histories of other nations in the region. Much of this I don't really possess the foresight or understand to speak on beyond a distant awareness in its impact on America.

 

But in the context of America, it goes back to neo-conservatives and their unapologetic support for this kind of foreign policy (supporting Islamist forces over secular governments that sought political allyship with the Soviet Union).

 

We now get the same neo-cons feigning outrage that Osama bin Laden's letter is viral (largely because I don't think many Americans understand that criticisms of Israel in open public discourse were happening in 2001). And that many Americans simply don't possess the proper context to understand why the words of a Wahhabist defending Palestine are disingenuous and self-serving because the Arab leftists and socialists who could speak on the harms pan-Islamism has caused were themselves repressed by Western powers more than willing to make allies out of Islamists. 

If it was foolish for the United States to support right-wing Islamist movements when it aligned with their anti-Soviet interests (true!) is it not foolish of western leftists to align themselves with right wing Islamist movements when they align with their anti-Israel goals? Do you not see how Hamas undermines your laudible (tho in my view unrealistic) goal of a secular one state Palestine? Let alone the two state solution it actively undermines at every turn?

 

I understand secular Palestinian groups working with Hamas because it is the government of Gaza and we are talking about a pretty dire situation here. But you and I, and most other users in this thread, are Westerners. Yet there is a consistent desire to do apologia for Hamas, or deflect from their actions, or adbicate their partial responsibility for the thousands of Palestinian lives being lost. To ignore their blatant and ongoing disregard for the safety of Gazans. To frame their actions as liberatory and revolutionary instead of vengeful and nihilistic. If your people were under attack by a ruthless foreign power that has shown consistently it has little regard for civillian life, would you do what they're doing? 

 

I support a ceasefire, of course. But the sad reality is when this war ends with Hamas still in charge of Gaza, it will have succeeded in one of its goals, which was creating a violent escalation that helps it position itself as a necessary component of Palestinian liberation. And there will be more violence and more dead Gazan children while it stays in this position. I urge you and everyone else to not play in to their hand by supporting this narrative.

[Mr. Mendes]

Anyway, here’s a great list set of resources for anyone who wants to look into how to better help the people of Gaza https://uscpr.org

[Communion]

5 minutes ago, Harrier said:

If it was foolish for the United States to support right-wing Islamist movements when it aligned with their anti-Soviet interests (true!) is it not foolish of western leftists to align themselves with right wing Islamist movements when they align with their anti-Israel goals?

Hamas being Muslim simply does not turn the Palestinian liberation movement into an Islamist one. To view them as akin to al-Qaeda or ISIS, or even the Taliban, would require ignoring the material reality in which the Palestinian people live their daily lives as an occupied, stateless people living within an apartheid system. 

 

The kind of sectarianism that has caused the kinds of conflict Islamists usually win in are absent amongst Palestinians in their search for liberation.

 

You also conflate what "alignment" here means. The US aligned itself with the Mujahideen via arms transfers and funding to ensure political conflicts went the way it wanted.

 

The "Western left" who align with Palestine simply recognize that the unique material conditions of Palestinians are so removed from what the average Westerner will ever experience that it is not the place of Westerners to scold how Palestinians organize to liberate themselves from Israeli occupation.

 

Again, Western leftists are not "aligned" with Hamas. We are aligned with leftists in Palestine, who themselves have decided organization with Muslim groups is the only viable path forward. Even our own actions are limited to begging and pleading with our own governments to stop sending Israel the bombs that then indiscriminately kill Palestinians, no matter if they were Islamists or secularists. 

 

Fear-mongering over whether left-wing Palestinian groups would be able to stop Hamas from turning to political Islamism once Israel is dissolved seems entirely disingenuous when Israel itself is a theocratic nation utilizing a literal form of political Judaism to justify the ethnic cleansing of millions of Palestinians right now.

[Communion]

20 minutes ago, Mr. Mendes said:

Anyway, here’s a great list set of resources for anyone who wants to look into how to better help the people of Gaza https://uscpr.org

I get why moderators wanted to be partial - and still be - following 10/07, but with a month passing and thousands of Palestinians dying, it is a shame that there isn't a similar banner as in the Ukraine thread for people who are just passing by and doing a quick scroll to see at the top of every page on how to help Palestinians.

 

Despite being US-centric, even the page at https://ceasefiretoday.com/ has guides on donations.

[Harrier]

27 minutes ago, Communion said:

Hamas being Muslim simply does not turn the Palestinian liberation movement into an Islamist one. To view them as akin to al-Qaeda or ISIS, or even the Taliban, would require ignoring the material reality in which the Palestinian people live their daily lives as an occupied, stateless people living within an apartheid system. 

 

The kind of sectarianism that has caused the kinds of conflict Islamists usually win in are absent amongst Palestinians in their search for liberation.

 

You also conflate what "alignment" here means. The US aligned itself with the Mujahideen via arms transfers and funding to ensure political conflicts went the way it wanted.

 

The "Western left" who align with Palestine simply recognize that the unique material conditions of Palestinians are so removed from what the average Westerner will ever experience that it is not the place of Westerners to scold how Palestinians organize to liberate themselves from Israeli occupation.

 

Again, Western leftists are not "aligned" with Hamas. We are aligned with leftists in Palestine, who themselves have decided organization with Muslim groups is the only viable path forward. Even our own actions are limited to begging and pleading with our own governments to stop sending Israel the bombs that then indiscriminately kill Palestinians, no matter if they were Islamists or secularists. 

 

Fear-mongering over whether left-wing Palestinian groups would be able to stop Hamas from turning to political Islamism once Israel is dissolved seems entirely disingenuous when Israel itself is a theocratic nation utilizing a literal form of political Judaism to justify the ethnic cleansing of millions of Palestinians right now.

Hamas are already an Islamist group and do not need to 'turn to' political Islam. You attempt to distinguish them as 'using Islam for political purposes' in contrast to ISIS or the Taliban or al-Qaeda who are what, more genuine in their beliefs? On who's authority do you make that distinction? Obviously there are degrees of Islamism as in any other political ideaology, but any group that seeks to establish an religious Islamic state as Hamas does is by nature Islamist. Hamas themselves would likely disagree with your characterisation of them.

 

Your plan seems to be to just hope that Hamas will moderate if there is movement towards peace or the end of occupation, but in fact it has shown iself to do the exact opposite in the past by actively undermining the peace process in the same manner than the Israeli right wing does. It needs to be pushed actively.

 

Again, I understand the pragmatic reasons for why Palestinian leftists may need to work with religious groups right now, especially given that the Palestinian left is pretty weak. But it is naive to suggest that the outcome of this war will not strengthen Hamas' position and entrench right wing Islamism as a part of the liberation movement.

 

It is important in my view on so many levels that the western left cease  its relationship with political Islam - which ranges from neutrality to outright embrace - simply because it has a critique of American foreign policy. You might drag neocons for their outrage over the Bin Laden letter virality, but in my view it does speak to a sickness in the American left that tries to make allies of literally anyone that opposes America. 

[CroNich]

52 minutes ago, Harrier said:

If it was foolish for the United States to support right-wing Islamist movements when it aligned with their anti-Soviet interests (true!) is it not foolish of western leftists to align themselves with right wing Islamist movements when they align with their anti-Israel goals? Do you not see how Hamas undermines your laudible (tho in my view unrealistic) goal of a secular one state Palestine? Let alone the two state solution it actively undermines at every turn?

 

I understand secular Palestinian groups working with Hamas because it is the government of Gaza and we are talking about a pretty dire situation here. But you and I, and most other users in this thread, are Westerners. Yet there is a consistent desire to do apologia for Hamas, or deflect from their actions, or adbicate their partial responsibility for the thousands of Palestinian lives being lost. To ignore their blatant and ongoing disregard for the safety of Gazans. To frame their actions as liberatory and revolutionary instead of vengeful and nihilistic. If your people were under attack by a ruthless foreign power that has shown consistently it has little regard for civillian life, would you do what they're doing? 

 

I support a ceasefire, of course. But the sad reality is when this war ends with Hamas still in charge of Gaza, it will have succeeded in one of its goals, which was creating a violent escalation that helps it position itself as a necessary component of Palestinian liberation. And there will be more violence and more dead Gazan children while it stays in this position. I urge you and everyone else to not play in to their hand by supporting this narrative.

I mean, its easy for you to pose that question in this context having not lived through that experience but I truly think having that as your reality for generations and generations, of course there is going to be an extreme reaction/retaliation. Decades of violence, oppression, murders, detention and displacement of an entire nation of innocent civilians is not a point of view any of us in the Western world can truly grasp or understand the reality of.

 

Additionally, there have been many attempts by the Palestinians to protest and retaliate 'peacefully' which have at worst has resulted in a considerable more amount of civilian deaths and at best been completely ignored. When you're dealing with an enemy that only uses violence and force to control your life and that of your nations what other choice do you have but to retaliate using violence? 

 

Also, if you think after this things will remain how they were, with Palestinians being contained within Gaza and controlled by Hamas that is just not realistic. October 7 proved that is not going to work anymore. We're either heading for total genocide of Palestinians and deletion of Palestine as a whole, the implentation of a two-state solution which was originally proposed back in the 1940s, or (and this is probbaly the least likely) Israel being dissolved as a state with all the land being returned to Palestine (which does not equate to the genocide of Israeli people btw). If you think after what has happened these past two months things will just go back to how they were, you are sorely mistaken.

Edited November 16, 2023 by CroNich

[CroNich]

11 minutes ago, Harrier said:

Hamas are already an Islamist group and do not need to 'turn to' political Islam. You attempt to distinguish them as 'using Islam for political purposes' in contrast to ISIS or the Taliban or al-Qaeda who are what, more genuine in their beliefs? On who's authority do you make that distinction? Obviously there are degrees of Islamism as in any other political ideaology, but any group that seeks to establish an religious Islamic state as Hamas does is by nature Islamist. Hamas themselves would likely disagree with your characterisation of them.

 

Your plan seems to be to just hope that Hamas will moderate if there is movement towards peace or the end of occupation, but in fact it has shown iself to do the exact opposite in the past by actively undermining the peace process in the same manner than the Israeli right wing does.

 

Again, I understand the pragmatic reasons for why Palestinian leftists may need to work with religious groups right now, especially given that the Palestinian left is pretty weak. But it is naive to suggest that the outcome of this war will not strengthen Hamas' position and entrench right wing Islamism as a part of the liberation movement.

 

It is important in my view on so many levels that the western left cease  its relationship with political Islam - which ranges from neutrality to outright embrace - simply because it has a critique of American foreign policy. You might drag neocons for their outrage over the Bin Laden letter virality, but in my view it does speak to a sickness in the American left that tries to make allies of literally anyone that opposes America. 

Well perhaps for most Palestinian lefties dealing with right-wing Islamism is more favourable than American-backed imperialism and colonialism at the expense of their literal country and population.

 

Again, neither of us have the life experience or POV to judge or dictate this.

 

Also I'm pretty sure for American lefties its not about opposing anyone that opposes America, I'm pretty sure this is simply about not standing by while your country supplies billions of dollars to fund the murder of tens of thousands of innocent people.

Edited November 16, 2023 by CroNich

[ClashAndBurn]

27 minutes ago, Harrier said:

but in my view it does speak to a sickness in the American left that tries to make allies of literally anyone that opposes America. 

America has had a direct hand in killing more innocent people than pretty much all terrorist groups combined have, but it's funny there's no inherent sickness to America's supporters who uncritically back ethnic cleansing and genocide of non-white people (chanting "no ceasefire!" at Van Jones with his milquetoast call for peace at yesterday's pro-genocide rally), but there is when people look at a 20-year old statement and concede that there are points to be made about how America's hollowing out of the world would lead to violent backlash eventually.

[CroNich]

5 minutes ago, ClashAndBurn said:

America has had a direct hand in killing more innocent people than pretty much all terrorist groups combined have, but it's funny there's no inherent sickness to America's supporters who uncritically back ethnic cleansing and genocide of non-white people (chanting "no ceasefire!" at Van Jones with his milquetoast call for peace at yesterday's pro-genocide rally), but there is when people look at a 20-year old statement and concede that there are points to be made about how America's hollowing out of the world would lead to violent backlash eventually.

 

[Cloröx]

He might get heart attack or even severe stroke if people keep pushing him for the evidences over and over again 

Joenicide Biden is his legacy 

 

 

[FOCK]

This is how every last one of these “leaders” should be treated in public.

 

 

[Cloröx]

I'm not surprise when certain ATRLer justify the genocide if their parent like this. There's no way you are so twisted to the core unless you've been planted and indoctrinated with the evilish Zionism during your childhood. 

 

 

Edited November 16, 2023 by Cloröx

[FOCK]

Ooooop

 

Whatever this is, it’s my favourite genre. 

Edited November 16, 2023 by FOCK

[Rihannaaa]

10 hours ago, ClashAndBurn said:

The best representative in the House by FAR  

You know that Hamas also bombing Israeli hospital without being a military base. We just have the iron dome that protect us because we care about our people 

[Communion]

10 hours ago, ClashAndBurn said:

The best representative in the House by FAR  

I love seeing people say this in the quote tweets: 

"They can censure her, but they will never be able to censor her." 

[Cloröx]

Amurica is funding Hamas confirmed! 

 

 

[Cloröx]

 

 

[Rihannaaa]

You can hate Israel as much as you want but you can’t defend Hamas. You need to understand that if Hamas had Israel power there will be no mercy on israel, they kill everyone. So you don’t have to agree with israel but please don’t justify Hamas actions they are more cruel then Isis

[Mezik]

6 minutes ago, Rihannaaa said:

You can hate Israel as much as you want but you can’t defend Hamas. You need to understand that if Hamas had Israel power there will be no mercy on israel, they kill everyone. So you don’t have to agree with israel but please don’t justify Hamas actions they are more cruel then Isis

Nobody is justifying Hamas. 
 

Israel is garbage and a terrorist state commuting horrific ethnic cleansing right now. They are no better than Hamas.

[heckinglovato]

6 minutes ago, Rihannaaa said:

You need to understand that if Hamas had Israel power there will be no mercy on israel, they kill everyone.

The same way Israel is also killing everyone?

 

Or like you mean without the rainbow flags and cute little Twitter account?