news Israel-Palestine Conflict 2023/ 2024 Mega Thread

[Harriser]

1 hour ago, Communion said:

 

This is largely the issue, though I appreciate the growth @Aristotle has had on the topic.

 

The plans for a Jewish state in Argentina, Uganda, etc. all would have had the same issues because they still involved mass migration and displacement. The issue with Zionists who try to compare Zionism to self-determination of indigenous groups is that the struggles simply don't line up due to amalgamating all subsets of the religion.

 

It'd be like folding every native American and Canadian population into one and suggesting there'd be some mass native homeland in Alaska (also already home to another indigenous people!) for all of them to have as one. 

 

The sales pitch of Zionisn as a movement of indigeneity fails because it asks people to believe the native Mizrahi population is somehow connected to a "diaspora" that's just an Ashkneazi population who has spent the last 2,000 years within the hills and farmlands of Europe. How is... *spins wheel* a 21-year-old Jewish man from Brooklyn *spins wheel* whose lineage sees the last 2,000 years spent in what is today Poland *spins wheel* somehow entitled to not only replace a Palestinian person whose family has been there for 400-500 years but also steal the literal house they're living in?

 

But Zionists aren't asking for a separate Ashkenazi state in Poland, a Mizrahi state in the Levant, etc. And when you point out this contradiction, they'd likely retort with: "Ethnicity is a social construct, built around shared language and culture, which all of the Jewish people have!". So.. it went from genocide via blood right to genocide via social construct? 

 

Let alone that much of them won't willingly own up to that it's not about blood right or shared culture for many of them but religious prophecy, which makes the silence of ATRL's very vocal "anti-religion" members so... interesting!

I'm not sure I fully agree with this as there simply would not have been the extent of displacement and violence that occured in 1948 had Israel been created in a country with more land and less population desnsity, and also without the religious element that enters due to Palestine being a holy land of three of the world's major religions.

 

I of course agree with you that Zionism is a disatrous failed movement and dangerous ideology in 2023, and that a colonialist project is inevitably violent in its inceptionary years. But I think it is probably fair to say it would have been a less disastrous and probably not an ongoing situation had it been in Argentina or Uganda. Degrees of failure, let's say.

 

Also, I will always maintain some level of empathy for a the appeal of zionism to a post-WW2 Jewish refugee, whether that is popular in here or not. If you were in 1946, could you really look a Jewish person in the eye and tell them they can't have a state because ethnonationalism is bad? After their people were nearly wiped off the face of the earth? It's difficult. And it's very easy for us to do so sitting here in 2023 with 75 years of hindsight and history of the occupation. In my ideal world, Israel should have been created in Poland or East Germany, as reparations for the actions of those governments during the war.

 

I guess what I'm trying to say is that while I despise Zionism, especially for its manifestations in 2023, I just hope we can extend empathy to the Jewish people of the past. The holocaust's impact on the pysche of a people shouldn't be underestimated.

[Brunette Ambition]

casually checking in on here and immediately seeing "hezbollah is spitting fire"

[Natawie]

uh oh guys the genocide police is here 

[Delirious]

35 minutes ago, Communion said:

"TECHNICALLY"!!!!

 

Inter-generational family trauma from having conservative Muslim relatives? Apparently the worst thing in the world, justifies calling for the subjugation of Muslims worldwide, etc.

 

Israel as a genocidal state performing ethnic cleansing? "Well that's technically bad too"

 

??? You're ******* lost. 

you know picking out words singularly isn't going to achieve anything right? you basically disregarded everything else i said in this thread but are we surprised in the slightest?

 

you're cherry picking words to win an argument. and you sure spent your time downvoting every one of my 10 posts lol. good luck to you, a communism lover.

Edited November 3, 2023 by Delirious

[Delirious]

37 minutes ago, Natawie said:

He is spitting straight fire. 

 

 

 

Ohkay, the evidence speaks otherwise:

NSFW:

Spoiler

 

 

[More Than A Melody]

1 hour ago, Redstreak said:

We already had trump for four years, we got genocide Joe out of it

Trump was voted against Hilary. I would agree with you if he was voted against an Obama re-election.

[airplane]

1 hour ago, Delirious said:

Bullshit that's already debunked? Like the tonnes of photographical evidence I posted?

 

Which was 'supposedly' debunked by using an AI image checker which has an accuracy rate of 20% or less, or the time when you guys used the 4chan puppy picture as evidence of debunking the photos?

 

Or the time when the IDF bombing the hospital theory was debunked by various international official sources? And the time when NYT tried to cope with irrelevant video evidence which the Washington Post debunked?

Plssss. We all know you do not care and want us to accept these lies so it can form a basis for justification in Gaza. You want us to feed into the zionist propaganda.

 

An israeli spokesperson for Netanyahu literally tweeted that they bombed the hospital, then retracted, then got caught posting old videos, then blamed Hamas.

 

Israel has been caught posting AI images MULTIPLE times. They recently posted pictures of baby teeth which were also debunked as FAKE and not coinciding with what teeth should look like.

 

No beheaded babies were ever shown. You do not care about what recently happened at the refugee camp for example, as long as you can spread propaganda which unfortunately for you, the majority of us aren’t falling for due to Israel’s history of manipulating, gaslighting, fabricating “facts”, videos, being caught, back tracking, being hit with community notes for constantly lying and misinformation.

 

You’ve been whining about the “beheaded babies” claim nonstop and you keep getting dragged and digging a bigger hole for yourself. The suffering in Gaza has FAR EXCEEDED whatever propaganda you’re trying to spread so desperately. I hope you enjoy talking to a wall.

Edited November 3, 2023 by airplane

[Natawie]

7 minutes ago, Delirious said:

Ohkay, the evidence speaks otherwise:

NSFW:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

I'm sorry but do you really think any of these pics belong to "babies"

 

It took zionists weeks to come up with "evidence"

 

Also, why does every evidence they put forward seemed to be charred? Israeli and their malicious tired propangda to brainwash the masses. 

[DAP]

 

[airplane]

I can show you pictures of actual beheaded babies in Gaza though @Delirious but that won’t fit the lying narrative you’re trying to push.

Edited November 3, 2023 by airplane

[State of Grace.]

I know some of you are allergic to FACTS but Nasrallah was indeed spilling 

 

[Delirious]

14 minutes ago, Natawie said:

I'm sorry but do you really think any of these pics belong to "babies"

 

It took zionists weeks to come up with "evidence"

 

Also, why does every evidence they put forward seemed to be charred? Israeli and their malicious tired propangda to brainwash the masses. 

 

12 minutes ago, airplane said:

I can show you pictures of actual beheaded babies in Gaza though @Delirious but that won’t fit the lying narrative you’re trying to push.

what narrative am i trying to push here? please do explain.

[Delirious]

21 minutes ago, airplane said:

Plssss. We all know you do not care and want us to accept these lies so it can form a basis for justification in Gaza. You want us to feed into the zionist propaganda.

 

An israeli spokesperson for Netanyahu literally tweeted that they bombed the hospital, then retracted, then got caught posting old videos, then blamed Hamas.

 

Israel has been caught posting AI images MULTIPLE times. They recently posted pictures of baby teeth which were also debunked as FAKE and not coinciding with what teeth should look like.

 

No beheaded babies were ever shown. You do not care about what recently happened at the refugee camp for example, as long as you can spread propaganda which unfortunately for you, the majority of us aren’t falling for due to Israel’s history of manipulating, gaslighting, fabricating “facts”, videos, being caught, back tracking, being hit with community notes for constantly lying and misinformation.

 

You’ve been whining about the “beheaded babies” claim nonstop and you keep getting dragged and digging a bigger hole for yourself. The suffering in Gaza has FAR EXCEEDED whatever propaganda you’re trying to spread so desperately. I hope you enjoy talking to a wall.

 

oh dear. oh dear.

 

so the canadian and USA official sources lied? ok.

Edited November 3, 2023 by Delirious

[Nova_23]

1 hour ago, Mezik said:

If someone can assist me with my ignorance, but why do Jewish people keep insisting on they are native to the land of Israel?

 

Everything I read clearly states that Palestinians are the natives of the land, but I always get "Judea existed" or "history goes beyond 1948" or "you're being anti semitic for not recognizing Jews always existed there".

 

However, I cannot find a single piece of literature (that isn't from zionist scholars) that indicates this?

Because it doesn’t exist. Even their own Torah states that there were people in modern day Jerusalem called the Canaanites when Abraham arrived there. Those are the people who are native to modern day Palestine. 

 

People will tell you that they converted to Judaism and then were exiled but at the end of the day, the people who were native to modern day Palestine did not abide by any religion prior to Abraham arriving there. This is stated in the Torah, Bible and Quran. So who’s to say all the people there converted to Judaism or maybe some converted to Christianity or Islam or didn’t convert to any religion what’s so ever. Like how do you definitively prove this? We know there were people there prior to any of three religions arriving.

 

Irregardless of what I spoke above, Israel was still built on the blood shed of thousands of Palestinians. You cannot build a country and make it a “Jewish state” on a land that’s already occupied by people who do not abide by Judaism regardless of what a book written thousands and thousands of years ago. 

Edited November 3, 2023 by Nova_23

[ClashAndBurn]

5 minutes ago, Delirious said:

so the canadian and USA official sources lied? ok.

Weapons of Mass Destruction in Iraq

 

Lying and fabricating intelligence to support pro-America narratives is the entire purpose of the West’s intelligence services.

[Nova_23]

Y’all still talking about beheaded babies and Hamas. 

 

I want those of you who keep bringing up those talking points to explain why they keep bringing it up but ignore the fact that Israel/IDF: 

-Uses Palestinians particularly children as human shields. This is well documented by the UN. Those of you who don’t know, the IDF, is so notorious for doing this that in 2005 a law came out stating you can’t use civilians as human shields. Israel still does anyways. 

-Uses White Phosphorus on civilians, a chemical warfare that’s considered illegal. Another war crime. 

-Continues to drop tons and tons of bombs on innocent civilians in Gaza as a form of collective punishment, which is a war crime. 

-Continues to target hospitals, schools, churches, mosques, homes, refugee camps, journalists and their families which again is a war crime 

-Is currently arresting and torturing palestinians in the west bank, demolishing homes in the west bank, dropping bombs in the west bank, murdering palestinians in the west bank. the west bank where hamas does not exist, Israel continues to commit its heinous acts 

 

*I can continue too…this is not the end of the list. In fact the list of war crimes Israel commits is so long the bandwidth on ATRL wouldn’t be able to handle it. 

 

So who is the real terror state? Israel is supposed to be a “democracy” and their elected government is treating civilians in this manner. LITERALLY BY DEFINITION IN INTERNATIONAL LAW, ISRAEL IS COMMITTING MULTIPLE WAR CRIMES. What is your answer to the above? I don’t care about Hamas. I’m asking you to answer for the actions of Israel because Hamas is not making Israel do the above and there is no excuse or justification for it either. 
 

Im sure the beheaded babies talking point will be brought up again. 

[Revolution]

Nasrallah chickening out after seeing the 2 carrier strike groups pointed right at him 

[chessguy99]

5 minutes ago, Revolution said:

Nasrallah chickening out after seeing the 2 carrier strike groups pointed right at him 

The carrier groups are pointed at his masters, not him. Most likely the Iranians told him they want no part of dealing with US air power.

[Natawie]

 IDF targeted him while he was on a motorcycle with another guy who was severely injured. 

[DAP]

Spoiler

 

The “self defense” in question

Edited November 3, 2023 by DAP

[Nova_23]

34 minutes ago, Natawie said:

 IDF targeted him while he was on a motorcycle with another guy who was severely injured. 

Hamas was hiding in the motorcycle they were driving 

[Delirious]

On 10/21/2023 at 8:30 AM, Nova_23 said:

This. People talking about what the proportionate response should be from Israel. Because if Israel is allowed to bomb and murder innocent civilians as “self defense” while they’re out talking about wiping out Gaza then you could simply say Hamas was acting out in self defense for the 75 years that the Israelis have been terrorizing and murdering Palestinians.  
 

Killing civilians is never an appropriate response for any group regardless of what has happened to them. That’s collective punishment and is a war crime. And the fact that people are moving the goal posts because they see that Israel is killing civilians and are like “well what should Israel do. What response should they take?” Stop being a terrorist state aimed at ending Palestinian lives would be a start is what I would say. 

 

Hamas carried out that terrorist attack but let’s not act like Israel has been squeaky clean for the last 75 years. 

Oh.

[Delirious]

On 10/21/2023 at 8:59 AM, More Than A Melody said:

Sis, that's what people need to realize. People are so traumatized by the Western demonization of Arabs that they don't realize that resisting and reacting is human. Societal change rarely happens without resistance and violence. I said "let them eat cake" a couple of pages ago and someone replied to me scandalized saying I should be banned. It's such an ignorant, reductive take.

 

Let them eat cake is attributed to Marie Antoinette, a sort of "famous last words" right as the French Revolution was brewing. Storming the Bastille was violent but necessary. It's a historical fact that most change depends on extreme acts. Even something as simple as voting rights for women ended up with hunger strikes. The Stonewall Riot wasn't exactly peaceful either. People criticized the BLM protests for being violent.

 

I'm not saying that hostages and rape and murder is a solution or that it's great that civilians are dying, but this is an extreme situation. It's 75 years of oppression, apartheid, and constant attempts at genocide, and the oppressor is a propaganda machine that got away with doing all of that with the west barely batting an eyelid to it up until very recently. I struggle to find another way for this to develop. What other choice did they have? Grin and bear? They've tried peaceful protests.

 

Israel has been pushing this idea that Hamas is ISIS which is an outrageous take, because they know the West's hatred for ISIS. They want to paint Hamas as a terrorist group instead of a resistance group. They fund Hamas because it's beneficial for them to have an enemy to demonize. If they could openly say that Palestinians are scum they would (they certainly slip up and try sometimes), so they created this big bad wolf they can cry about so the West can still see them as victims, and the mask is starting to slip off.

 

That's exactly what they did with the hospital! They bombed a hospital, thinking it'd be business as usual, because they've gotten away with bombing similar targets before, but when they saw the reaction, they realized they f*cked up, and decided to blame Hamas instead. Hamas uses civilians as human shields. Hamas bombed the hospital. Hamas has our hostages. Hamas didn't do enough for its people because they tried to resist us! Nevermind the fact that we don't allow them to do anything! Don't look at that, don't look at us, look at Hamas!

 

I was watching the documentary Born In Gaza (which is a great watch, on Netflix), it's from 2014. It's entirely told by children. One of them says that he was playing soccer with his cousins and they were bombed and his cousins died instantly in front of him. He said he wanted to grow up to become part of the resistance. He was 13 years old. And what can you tell a child like that? "Don't kill the civilians that are bringing lawn chairs to watch your house and family be bombed"?

 

The lack of empathy one has to have to watch that child talk about what happened to him and his life and experiences and think "you're a terrorist" for wanting to join the resistance... it's unexplainable. I legit don't have words.

 

Like I said, let them eat cake. The blood of all dead, on each side, is on the hands of Israel.

Gross.

 

"I'm not saying that hostages and rape and murder is a solution or that it's great that civilians are dying, but this is an extreme situation."

Edited November 3, 2023 by Delirious

[Delirious]

On 10/24/2023 at 1:38 PM, Scars said:

It may be an uncomfortable reality to those who see the world with a sense of morality straight out of a Marvel movie, but from Latin America to Southern Africa, the taking of political opponent hostages, or western ambassadors, have always been used as a tool for negotiation by resistance groups. 

 

The madness in here. Some of you might as well scream "terrorists!" to anti-apartheid armed resistance groups, like ANC, which went to become the biggest political party in today's South Africa.

[Delirious]

On 10/24/2023 at 4:40 PM, Cloröx said:

But Hamas is indeed resistance movement although we all not agree with some of their actions. And Israel is the oppressor, that's fact!

Terrorist organisation*