news Israel-Palestine Conflict 2023/ 2024 Mega Thread

[RihRihGirrrl]

6 minutes ago, More Than A Melody said:

Yeah, I don't think Joe is getting re-elected man

 

It's ridiculous that they're framing this as antisemitism....people are allowed to criticize a government (Isreal) especially when they are actively commiting genocide! The level of censorship is insane 

[nooniebao]

.

Edited October 31, 2023 by nooniebao

[More Than A Melody]

4 minutes ago, RihRihGirrrl said:

It's ridiculous that they're framing this as antisemitism....people are allowed to criticize a government (Isreal) especially when they are actively commiting genocide! The level of censorship is insane 

The Fox journalist asked about anti-Israel protests. She answered calling them antisemitic. It's the most dystopian thing I've ever witnessed. He's not going to win in 2024.

[RihRihGirrrl]

16 minutes ago, More Than A Melody said:

The Fox journalist asked about anti-Israel protests. She answered calling them antisemitic. It's the most dystopian thing I've ever witnessed. He's not going to win in 2024.

Yea it's ridiculous!....straight out of Zionist's propaganda playbook smh

[FOCK]

Wow. 
And that “one soldier” story isn’t even verified. 

[Gaia]

I have some Jewish friends that are still more concerned about Hostage release than anything. I believe the only way to truly combat this issue and turn even Jewish against IDF is release of the hostages to show that, that was never what IDF cared about in the first place. As long as Hamas has hostages, they will use that to justify anything they're doing. They're never going to accept a trade for the hostages (for any sort of aid or ceasefire) because:

 

1. It incentivizes taking hostages

2. They can continue to justify their current rampage and paint Hamas as the true evil for even having hostages

 

At this point, it really doesn't make sense to continue holding the hostages. It's clearly doing nothing for Hamas or Palestinians in general. Israel can continue to harp about "Self-defense" as long as they can continue to make Hamas look like a giant threat. And holding hostages allows them to do so. 

Edited October 31, 2023 by Gaia

[RihRihGirrrl]

2 minutes ago, FOCK said:

Wow. 
And that “one soldier” story isn’t even verified. 

It makes sense to them because they do not see Palestinians as humans. 

[Gaia]

1 hour ago, RihRihGirrrl said:

It's ridiculous that they're framing this as antisemitism....people are allowed to criticize a government (Isreal) especially when they are actively commiting genocide! The level of censorship is insane 

I think an important thing that's getting missed is the US public is very uneducated in world politics (or politics in general) and do not care to know details. Most do not know the history of this issue. Having an "Anti-Israel" protest DOES seem like a blatantly antisemitic protest because most do not know its essentially an Anti-IDF protest. Most don't even know what IDF is

 

It's essentially a misnomer. It's the same reason "Defund the Police" never went anywhere. To the public, it seemed like the far left was asking to dissolve the police force and stop funding them with tax dollars. No one in their right mind would get rid of police but that's not actually what the movement was calling for. It was a horrible slogan that ruined it before it even began.

Edited October 31, 2023 by Gaia

[She-Rah]

After Mr. Biden’s trip, the reservations inside the U.S. government about a ground invasion only grew. Israeli leaders did not appear to have an endgame for the invasion, American officials said. And Mr. Netanyahu and his war cabinet had no plans for what to do with Gaza once Israeli troops went in and began occupying, at least temporarily, some or all of it.

In late October, Mr. Austin advised Israeli officials to hold off on the ground invasion. He argued that both the Americans and the Israelis needed more time for hostage negotiations, to get more humanitarian aid into Gaza, to do better war planning and to strengthen defenses around U.S. troops in the region, who were coming under increasing attack from Iran-backed militias in Iraq and Syria.

In some ways, the Americans were pushing on an open door. They had detected signs that Mr. Netanyahu was reluctant to proceed with a ground invasion.

U.S. officials have also realized that there is virtually no way for them to win over more diplomatic support for Israel. If anything, countries around the world, especially in the global south, are moving the other way as the Palestinian death toll grows. Even European allies of the United States are divided on Israel’s war. U.S. officials say they realize that what they were able to do with Ukraine — building a coalition of international support — will be impossible to do with Israel.

“The grievances of the Palestinian people cannot justify the appalling attacks by Hamas. And those appalling attacks cannot justify the collective punishment of the Palestinian people,” António Guterres, the secretary general of the United Nations, said last Tuesday, drawing calls for his resignation by Israel’s ambassador.

 

For Mr. Biden, the tightrope walk continues.

On Sunday, Mr. Sullivan signaled that the United States would continue to press Israel, publicly and privately, for restraint.

“Those conversations happen multiple times a day. They happen between the president and the prime minister,” he said.

 

__________

 

 

so Biden realized Israel messed up and overplayed their hand and it’s failing to receive global support like they did with Ukraine. Why would other countries support a bully and a genocide? 

[CottageHore]

22 hours ago, More Than A Melody said:

Summarize in simple terms? I can try. In SHORT terms? No.

 

I'll try bullet points for clarity.

 

1. The land in question is considered "Holy Land" by both Muslims and Jews (according to Jew/Christian belief, Muslims descend from the prophet Abraham's first son Ishmael and Jews from his second son Isaac). This is like, legit thousands of years ago. According to Jewish belief, the land where Israel is settled today (and other surrounding areas) was their "Promised Land" which belonged to them and only them. Jews suffered multiple exiles from the area over the course of thousands of years, which is why most Jews, were settled in Europe. Jews have been victims of persecution pretty much since the inception of time.
2. In the late 1800s a Jewish activist called Theodor Herzl started the Zionist movement, according to which, Jews would create a homeland in their Holy Land. antisemitic rhetoric had always been somewhat prevalent, so Herzl believed that the only way to avoid it was to create a Jewish state. Of course, Herzl and adopters of this movement, thoroughly ignored that said "Holy Land" was already occupied. The territory belonged to the Ottoman Empire, and was informally (but pretty much officially) called Palestine. More than half a million Arabs lived there.
3. In the following years (late 1800s - early 1900s) Jews started to emigrate to Palestine to escape the rise of antisemitism. By the 1920s, the population of Palestine was of 757K, of which 600K were Muslim, 85K Jewish, 75K Christian.
4. World War I saw the Ottoman Empire join forces with the Central Powers (Germany, Austria-Hungary, Bulgaria), and were defeated by the Allied Forces (France, UK, US, etc). The Ottoman Empire is dissolved once they're defeated and France and the UK split its territory, with France taking Syria and the UK taking Palestine. This is known as the British Mandate, in 1922 (also the French Mandate, but it's irrelevant here). In 1917 the UK had signed the Balfour Declaration, which was a show of support to the Zionist movement in terms of establishing a homeland in Palestine. Reminder that at this point 80% of the population of Palestine was Muslim, 11% was Jewish.
5. Over the course of the following two decades, Palestinians (non-Jewish) rioted and revolted multiple times. All the while Jewish people continued to emigrate to Palestine. Antisemitic rhetoric was reaching a fever high... idk if you recognize the date but it's time for _*-*_ HITLER _*-*_.
6. After World War II, the UK was like "right, yeah, about that British Mandate, I don't want it anymore" and handed the issue to the UN. The UN partitioned the land 56% for Israel, 44% for Palestine, with Jerusalem being under international control, despite the fact that non-Jewish Palestinians were a vast majority. Israel was like "yes!" and Arabs were like "uh, no?" Cue, conflict.
7. The resolution by the UN was declared in late November 1947. Ten days prior, a paramilitary Zionist organization killed multiple members of an Arab family, which resulted in the Arab side retaliating by killing multiple Jews, which morphed into a full blown civil war, which escalated to a full blown Arab-Jewish war by May 15 1948, when Israel was officially declared a state. This is probably the hardest part to explain in simple terms because of all the moving parts, but it essentially resulted in what's called Nakba (which means "catastrophe"), where with horrible attacks, Israel expelled 700K+ Arabs from the land. Civilians, obviously. This is something Mohamed Hadid (Gigi and Bella's dad) has touched on, because it happened to him. His parents had taken a Jewish family after World War II because they had nowhere to live, when his mom was pregnant with him, she went to his grandmother's house to give birth and when she came back, the Jewish family which was taking refuge in her house had taken over, and they refused to even give her a blanket for the baby. His family was forced into exile with just the clothes on their backs. This entire thing resulted in Israel occupying more land than it was originally given.
8. In 1967 Israel preemptively launched an attack by air and ground on Egypt (which at this point was occupying Gaza). This is also incredibly long, just know that it wound up with Israel capturing 78% of the land, further separating Palestinian territory into two sections Gaza and the West Bank.

This is the map that you've probably seen floating around. Green is Palestine, white is Israel, the large portion on the right is the West Bank and the other tiny piece of green land is Gaza

 

Through this all Palestine is stateless. It has been occupied by Jordan and Egypt. Israel occupied Gaza when they defeated Egypt, they "left" Gaza in 2005, but to this day control everything that goes in and out. They don't allow Palestinians to build an airport or a port, Palestinians can't create water pumps, Israel adopted the tactic of "putting Palestinians on a diet" which means calorie counting how much food per person they allow in, in order to control population growth and development. They also routinely bomb areas of Gaza in an action they call "mowing the lawn" (it's a form of psychological control and torture).

 

Most of Gaza is unemployed, there are literally no jobs. 64% of the population is under 23, with around 50% being under 18. This is because life expectancy in Gaza is around 74, while life expectancy in Israel is around 85. Israel doesn't allow fishermen to fish deeper than 6 miles off shore. I could go on.

 

In West Bank, you can see that the 1967 and 1920 maps are significantly different, that's because Israel occupies the West Bank, and over the course of the years allowed (encouraged) settlers to isolate and separate the West Bank in multiple enclaves, which you can see in the pic. They offer cheaper taxes or services to settlers that take Palestinian houses, you might've seen videos of New York native "Israelis" admittedly stealing Palestinian houses. That's because multiple Israeli companies claim ownership of Palestinian homes and sell them to foreign Jews for dirt cheap, and Palestinians don't have legal recourse, they're just forced to leave.

 

There are multiple (around 500?) military check points controlled by the IDF in the West Bank. There are streets Palestinian people aren't allowed to walk on, and if they do they're apprehended. Because some Palestinian people had houses that opened to those streets, the IDF welded their doors together. Palestinians are forced to leave their houses (to go to school, work, do groceries) via ladders through their windows.

 

Speaking of the IDF, it stands for Israeli Defense Forces. Conscription is literally mandatory for all Israeli citizens for about 2/3 years. Yes, even women (that's why Gal Gadot served in the IDF, for instance). You may also see the IDF referred to as IOF, aka, Israeli Occupying Forces. Israel's military is considered one of the best in the world, and is heavily funded by the US.

 

The US finds it of upmost importance to have an ally (and a glorified military base) in the Middle East. That's why Biden is giving them carte blanche to genocide, and that's why Biden (multiple times) famously said, "If Israel didn't exist we'd have to invent it."

 

Anyway, another FUN aspect of Palestinian lives is how there's four kinds of Palestinian citizens in the region (each with a different identifying ID card), and all of them are "inferior" to Israel citizens.

 

• The "lowest" residents are those who reside in Gaza. They're not allowed to enter Israel proper or the West Bank or Jerusalem. If they leave Gaza they can't return.
• Then there's the West Bank residents. They're not allowed to enter Israel proper or Jerusalem. If they leave the West Bank they can't return. They can move to Gaza if they so desire, but then they can't come back.
• Then there's the Jerusalem residents. If they leave Jerusalem they can't return. They can move to the West Bank or Gaza, but they can't come back.
• Then there's the Israeli Palestinian residents. They're free to move through all of the territory but if they leave Israel proper they can't come back.

The first three kinds of Palestinians can't vote in Israeli elections or present themselves as candidates. The Israeli Palestinian residents can vote, but they can't platform liberation campaigns or anything that would benefit Palestine or the creation of a state of Palestine. So, basically, an empty vote.

 

Israel has it in written law that Jerusalem has to have a certain percentage of Jewish population (I believe it's 64%), it's also an unwritten law that Israel has to have a majority Jewish population, which is why they're called an "ethnostate"

 

While Netanyahu's approval ratings are in the pits, the IDF has an overwhelmingly positive image. Israel is a non-democracy. There are laws that prohibit the discussion of Nakba, if a Jewish Israeli marries a non-Jew they can't live together and the marriage isn't recognized by the state. They also don't pass on Israeli citizenship to their partners. Israelis are incredibly indoctrinated into despising Palestinians, and most of the population does. Something I didn't mention before is that Israel was created with the goal to imitate European countries and separate themselves from the rest of the Middle East. Israel is a DEEPLY racist country. Its leaders routinely refer to Palestinians as "animals" and "children of darkness." They use Bible quotes to justify genocide, very outwardly. Multiple polls over the years show that most Israeli citizens are in favor of carpet bombing Gaza, or annexing Gaza after committing genocide (killing all Palestinians) or ethnic cleansing (expelling all Palestinians).

 

Another important thing to add is that all Jews, everywhere in the world, have what Israel calls "a birthright" which means each year between 40 and 25K Jewish young adults (ages 18 to 26) are given a free trip to Israel (which can range from a few days to a few weeks). A Jewish person can move to Israel at any given moment and get automatic citizenship, and they'll get a cut on taxes and other cost if they move to Israel (and like I said, they also can get houses for dirt cheap). As I said before, once a Palestinian leaves, they're not allowed to come back...

 

I think the last thing I can explain without delving into very long-winded details is that Gaza is controlled by Hamas. Hamas was an Islamic social group funded in 1987. Over the years it became more violent and resistant to Israel mistreatment of Palestinian citizens and in turn Israel has used that as a tool for victimization, equating them to ISIS and using them as an excuse for... all of their atrocities. It's important to recognize that Hamas was funded (not founded, funded) by the Israeli government because they wanted to divide the Palestinian people who were mostly in favor of a secular government called Fatah. Hamas won the last election in Gaza in 2006 by a small minority (and it was funded by Israel back then, which multiple former Israeli politicians have admitted on the record). They created a whole maze of tunnels under Gaza and routinely resist against Israel.

 

October 7 was an attack by Hamas which took multiple hostages and killed multiple Israeli civilians. It was in retaliation to not only the constant mistreatment of Israeli to Palestinian people, but also their recurrent attacks on Mosques on Ramadan and other assorted attacks from Israel. Ever since then, Israel is using the hostages and the civilian casualties as an excuse to "hunt Hamas" and "exterminate it." Because they move mostly through tunnels, they claim that Hamas uses civilians as human shields and they're hiding below hospitals, mosques, schools, etc, in order to carpet bomb the f*ck out of the territory. As of today, Israel has killed 8,000 civilians in Gaza (it has a population of around 2 million). Israel has also killed multiple Palestinians in the West Bank, despite the fact that Hamas does NOT control that territory.

 

Hamas has offered to hand the hostages in exchange for a ceasefire, Israel refused, in exchange for Israel freeing Palestinian prisoners (Israel has thousands of Palestinian prisoners, a good chunk of them children, most of them for absolutely no reason), Israel refused. They offered hostages in exchange for fuel and the entrance of aid, Israel refused. Since Israel controls Gaza's supply of electricity, water, internet, food, etc, they have cut off all of it, blanking out Gaza in the process.

 

They've told Gaza residents to move south, but then bombed the routes they marked as safe, and then bombed the south of Gaza. It has murdered 20 something journalists and the families of a few of them (which they admit they did on purpose). They've apparently murdered about 50 hostages.

 

I honestly don't know what else to add. If I forgot anything, someone else add it.

Thank you so much for this thorough explanation. I feel so enlightened and incredibly enraged by all this.

 

Question- so #FreePalestine means, freeing Palestine (both Gaza and West Bank?) from Israel’s power. What would this look like in principle and how would this happen? What could persuade Israel in freeing Palestine?

[ryoncé]

3 hours ago, More Than A Melody said:

Yeah, I don't think Joe is getting re-elected man

 

still better him over Trump...

 

it is a tragedy what is going on but dont let your emotions cloud how important it is to keep a Democrat in office unless you want to set the stage for tragedy to come directly to the USA itself

[More Than A Melody]

5 minutes ago, ryoncé said:

still better him over Trump...

 

it is a tragedy what is going on but dont let your emotions cloud how important it is to keep a Democrat in office unless you want to set the stage for tragedy to come directly to the USA itself

Read what you're actually quoting, not what you think I'm saying.

[chessguy99]

21 minutes ago, CottageHore said:

Thank you so much for this thorough explanation. I feel so enlightened and incredibly enraged by all this.

 

Question- so #FreePalestine means, freeing Palestine (both Gaza and West Bank?) from Israel’s power. What would this look like in principle and how would this happen? What could persuade Israel in freeing Palestine?

There is no longer anything that can compel Israel to allow a Free Palestine. When Egypt made peace and recognized Israel after the Yom Kippur War, there was no power in the middle east that could stand a reasonable chance of defeating Israel in a war. Modern Israel has never lost a war. They occupy the disputed lands because the Arab states surrounding them failed numerous times to defeat Israel.

[ryoncé]

2 minutes ago, More Than A Melody said:

Read what you're actually quoting, not what you think I'm saying.

you said you dont think Joe is getting re-elected and im saying Joe HAS to be re-elected bc if a Republican wins democracy is over

 

what am i confused about 

[CottageHore]

2 minutes ago, chessguy99 said:

There is no longer anything that can compel Israel to allow a Free Palestine. When Egypt made peace and recognized Israel after the Yom Kippur War, there was no power in the middle east that could stand a reasonable chance of defeating Israel in a war. Modern Israel has never lost a war. They occupy the disputed lands because the Arab states surrounding them failed numerous times to defeat Israel.

So when people use the #FreePalestine hashtag, is it out of ignorance to reality or more-so to stand in solidarity, not a call to action as it’s impossible for that to actually occur?

[chessguy99]

7 minutes ago, CottageHore said:

So when people use the #FreePalestine hashtag, is it out of ignorance to reality or more-so to stand in solidarity, not a call to action as it’s impossible for that to actually occur?

There are various reasons people use hashtags. And I believe a great number use them without any real thought behind the meaning of the hashtag. if you ask a marketing person, they will tell you hashtags are an effective method to connect with the under 25 demographic, as they have grown up in a world that always had social media. Not surprisingly, the under 25 demographic has shown an overwhelming support for Palestine.

[CottageHore]

10 minutes ago, chessguy99 said:

There are various reasons people use hashtags. And I believe a great number use them without any real thought behind the meaning of the hashtag. if you ask a marketing person, they will tell you hashtags are an effective method to connect with the under 25 demographic, as they have grown up in a world that always had social media. Not surprisingly, the under 25 demographic has shown an overwhelming support for Palestine.

I thought the sentiment of freeing Palestine was good though? Is that true? Because it seems true from what I’m gathering.

[Communion]

43 minutes ago, CottageHore said:

So when people use the #FreePalestine hashtag, is it out of ignorance to reality or more-so to stand in solidarity, not a call to action as it’s impossible for that to actually occur?

The goal of many Palestinians is largely a one state secular Palestine. 

 

Polls have shown the idea of a two state solution has plummeted in popularity after years of Israeli brutality and Palestinian historians have basically said the Israeli settlers are too embedded into the land. That's why they made the settlements in the first place. It's active colonization. People can preach a 2 state solution is do-able, but if America can't even stop Israel from invading Gaza, which they treat as an open-air prison, how would they convince Israel to pull all of its settlers out of the West Bank, where they actively want that land and see it in their religious dogma as a holy land?

 

Once you realize this, it becomes easier to understand why some Palestinians view the future as the below:

1. Be destroyed out of existence by Israel reaching its ultimate goal of genocide, or;
2. Make life miserable enough for a Zionist state that the settlers don't find it worth occupying anymore

This is not to glorify or romanticize violence, which can be cringe as a Westerner to do, but to acknowledge that much resolution didn't begin in places like South Africa or what is now Zimbabwe until the occupying settlers had to undergo and suffer escalating violence and fear growing political instability. 

 

I mean... that's what Israel does. It makes life unbearable for Palestinians with the intention of forcing them to leave - to make them decide life would be easier in Egypt or Jordan or Lebanon.  Many Jewish leftists have pointed out this contradiction. Jewish Americans can clutch their pearls, but how would they expect their Israeli peers to be able to live the same metropolitan, urban lifestyles they do while on top of a concentration camp? Why wouldn't the Palestinian people decide to turn the metros and city nightlife of Israel into the war zones Israel has given to them?

 

People who try to obscure this as an issue of Islamic terrorism know this. That's why they misframe the situation. Look at the comparisons to 9/11. If there are only 2 likely options, the people who do this are pushing for Option 1.

Edited October 31, 2023 by Communion

[Cloröx]

33 minutes ago, chessguy99 said:

There is no longer anything that can compel Israel to allow a Free Palestine. When Egypt made peace and recognized Israel after the Yom Kippur War, there was no power in the middle east that could stand a reasonable chance of defeating Israel in a war. Modern Israel has never lost a war. They occupy the disputed lands because the Arab states surrounding them failed numerous times to defeat Israel.

The only reason why Israel can sustain such a long war because the USA and its allies keep funding the terrorist state. If they stop helping Israel, it's most likely Israel will start behaving itself. This might be controversial but eliminating Israelis leader won't stop the genocide because the Zionism itself has run too deep in the state to the point many Israelis have this psychopath mindset that Palestinians don't deserve life and they fully support Nakba 3.0. And of course going full war against Israel should be avoided because so many innocent from both sides will die. 

[Archetype]

5 minutes ago, Cloröx said:

The only reason why Israel can sustain such a long war because the USA and its allies keep funding the terrorist state

Not exactly, this is mostly military and defense funding.  Israel itself has a healthy economy similar to that of many European countries, and is a leader in technology R&D.

 

The recurring theme I seem to see in recent posts is what I said weeks ago... Israel can't be stopped unless the US threatens to end military aid.  The likelihood of that ending is extremely low unless US allies vocally and loudly condemn the Biden admin for funding this violence.  Otherwise, Israel will completely occupy Gaza and demolish as much as possible, perhaps even rebuild for Israeli settlers to come in and claim as a "New Gaza" or something similar. 

[Cloröx]

10 minutes ago, Archetype said:

Not exactly, this is mostly military and defense funding.  Israel itself has a healthy economy similar to that of many European countries, and is a leader in technology R&D.

 

The recurring theme I seem to see in recent posts is what I said weeks ago... Israel can't be stopped unless the US threatens to end military aid.  The likelihood of that ending is extremely low unless US allies vocally and loudly condemn the Biden admin for funding this violence.  Otherwise, Israel will completely occupy Gaza and demolish as much as possible, perhaps even rebuild for Israeli settlers to come in and claim as a "New Gaza" or something similar. 

Not really, this healthy economy won't exist if the conflict is stalemate at least instead of one-sided. Do you really think that Israel's economy can prosper if its situation is same as Palestine + without fund or protection from the USA. Stop funding this terrorist state, if they attack their neighboring countries (Palestine, Lebanon etc.) then let them take full accountability/responsibility if there's any retaliation. Maybe this time they will learn how precious peace is, it's so sad seeing people who used to be victim of Holocaust just to repeat the sin they mocked earlier.

[nooniebao]

 

 

[Brunette Ambition]

Palestine supporters are really taking their masks off  
 

After dagestians raided an airport looking for arriving Jewish people to attack: 

The silence by leftists has been pretty telling. this will definitely have consequences. 

[welham]

21 minutes ago, Brunette Ambition said:

Palestine supporters are really taking their masks off  
 

After dagestians raided an airport looking for arriving Jewish people to attack: 

The silence by leftists has been pretty telling. this will definitely have consequences. 

Want me to post countless Hebrew language links to what Israelis are publicly spouting 24/7? Aren't you even a Israeli if I remember correctly? If I remembered correctly and the answer is yes, you have quite the audacity to paint Pro-Palestinians a certain way when the vast majority of the Israeli public are foaming at their mouths at the idea of "leveling" the entirety of the Gaza strip along with ALL of the civilian population -all in public and all over social media. We live in the same country girl, you won't be able to hide your people's genocidal tendencies behind the language barrier anymore  

[Cloröx]