CoolNebraskaGuy Posted October 11, 2023 Posted October 11, 2023 2 minutes ago, Capris Groove said: To be fair, neither should he from those websites. That's fair, I suppose Reuters or the AP would be a better option 1
Riverbank Posted October 11, 2023 Posted October 11, 2023 The quotes crucifying someone who was a child victim of violence for not wanting other children to face the same fate as her. Some people are beyond help 9
Eóghan Posted October 11, 2023 Posted October 11, 2023 Surprisingly in this megathread you know what's shocking me the most in this sea of replies? it's actually the people who come in here writing **** like they "know nothing about this conflict", "wanna learn more" or saying "what is this about"? Y'all can't be kids under 12? That's the only demo I can excuse. This conflict has been going on for half a century, taught in school in history and making the news multiple times per year without skipping a beat. 1 5
CoolNebraskaGuy Posted October 11, 2023 Posted October 11, 2023 3 minutes ago, Riverbank said: The quotes crucifying someone who was a child victim of violence for not wanting other children to face the same fate as her. Some people are beyond help Twitter has really become a rightwing cesspool since Musk got ahold of it. It was always the graveyard of intellectualism though. 1
Popular Post Jjang Posted October 11, 2023 Popular Post Posted October 11, 2023 11 minutes ago, Communion said: After that, it feels important to highlight these below posts from before from users who always speak with both consideration and sincerity (with all 3 being far more eloquent and in-tune to many of the experiences being touched on than myself could be [praise to a myriad of other users as well, of course]): (I'm also thinking of @Jjang in times like this and hope they're doing okay. ) Thank you for your words. It feels almost silly to use emojis in such discussions but it feels important to take time to thank those who always bring clarity to such discussions, especially when times have seen such vitriol grow on ATRL in recent months. Thank you for thinking of me. There's simply too much chaos going on and no energy to engage in social media/internet activities. But I'm well. 22
Glam Posted October 11, 2023 Posted October 11, 2023 14 minutes ago, CoolNebraskaGuy said: How are you going to accuse me of talking about things that aren't related to Hamas and start talking about Al Qaeda and Bin Laden?! There's a whole lot to unpack in what you said. The American Wars in Iraq and Afghanistan were absolutely failures, its wild that you would imply otherwise. Over 3 million dead and several nations destroyed for what exactly? Should we continue the War on Terror? Unreal Maybe we should start to examine how imperialist/colonialist foreign policy creates environments ripe for radicalization and terrorism? Or would that require too much of an understanding of the context? I used 9-11 and the Invasion of Aghanistan as examples of how the context doesn't change the fact that terrorists must be killed or at the very least imprisioned. They are a threat to others. They literally want to kill as many people as possible. The Invasion of Afghanistan wasn't a complete failure because Al Qaeda was destroyed. Did you see any other skyscraper in NYC getting destroyed? The fact that you aren't willing to recognize this fact is weird. The last paragraph is a valid point, but it doesn't change the fact that terrorists must be killed/imprisoned.
Harrier Posted October 11, 2023 Posted October 11, 2023 I truly dread to think about how awful this already is and how much worse it is still going to get for the people of Gaza. Will ghouls celebrate when as many Palestinians have died as Israelis in this particular conflict? How brutal will Netanyahu's inevitable reoccupation and oppression of Gaza be? Will the humanitarian corridor into Egypt be successful? The cutting off of electrcity and water is one of the most indefensible things Israel has done in recent memory. A crime against humanity. The defense minister's statement was truly disgusting. As others have rightly stated, Hamas will keep its militants alive: all this does is hurt random civillians. The whole thing is such a ******* disaster its beyond words 5
CoolNebraskaGuy Posted October 11, 2023 Posted October 11, 2023 (edited) 21 minutes ago, Glam said: I used 9-11 and the Invasion of Aghanistan as examples of how the context doesn't change the fact that terrorists must be killed or at the very least imprisioned. They are a threat to others. They literally want to kill as many people as possible. The Invasion of Afghanistan wasn't a complete failure because Al Qaeda was destroyed. Did you see any other skyscraper in NYC getting destroyed? The fact that you aren't willing to recognize this fact is weird. The last paragraph is a valid point, but it doesn't change the fact that terrorists must be killed/imprisoned. I understand why you mentioned 9/11. I lost family members on 9/11: it was extremely traumatizing for my family. I also understand how dangerous terrorism is and how it poses a threat to global stability. There are no simple solutions to the problem of terrorism in this day and age, and I for one believe strongly that violence only begets more violence. I appreciate your empathy for the innocent people who are victims of terrorism. It is a compassionate reaction to what seems like senseless violence. I guess what I'd want to know is- do you really think terrorism can be defeated by indiscriminate slaughter? Were the 3000 souls lost on September 11 avenged by the 3 million that died in the two decades that followed? Isn't a policy of retribution the logic of terrorism? Keep in mind that over half the population of Gaza are essentially children- far too young to have played any significant role in this conflict. Will their deaths be justified if the leaders of Hamas are killed? Edited October 11, 2023 by CoolNebraskaGuy 1
besaid Posted October 11, 2023 Posted October 11, 2023 37 minutes ago, Harrier said: I dont disagree with your statements about the brutality of the occupation. I agree that Israel has more power in the peace process. Where I disagree is in your erasure of Palestinian agency, and with your framing that seems to imply the slaughter that has occured is tragic but necessary. Gaza is an open air prison - no doubt about it. But that fact doesn't leave Hamas with no choice but to indiscriminately murder and rape civillians. This framing is fundamentally wrong and falls into what is in my view a common pitfall, which is to argue oppressed peoples do not have any power to make decisions. Along the same lines as blaming America for Ugandan homophobia, to use a random example. Additionally, it is simply foolish to ignore the role that radical Islamist terrorism has played in perpetuating the cycle of violence, leading Israel and also the surrounding Arab states to continue brutal policies with the "justification" of protecting their people. Just like it is true that Israel's actions lead to Hamas, it is also true that the existence of Hamas is what led Israel and Egypt to blockade Gaza since 2007. Again - do not erase Palestinian agency. Additionally, I disagree with your goals vehemently. Lets unpack the common statement you ended your post with - "from river to sea" - what does that entail? How would that be achieved? How does this not constitute ethnic cleansing? Should Jews be allowes to stay in the Levant, or should they be sent back to the diaspora countries to make way for the right of return? How would this happen without terrible violence and suffering on a scale that vastly outmatches even what happened in the late 40s? Additionally, let's also acknowledge that a significant percentage of Israeli Jews fled from Arab countries - where do they go? I understand and greatly respect your drive to see Palestine free. But your one state goal will not happen, and while millions of people remain committed to it, there will not be peace. The same is true of Zionist goals. Two states is the only way, period end of story. Palestinians (led by Hamas and other radicals throughout their history) have continually rejected the 2-state solution and opted for war, terrorism and "from the river to the sea" all or nothing proposals. When that's all they offer - and then lose and fail to get what they need - it really isn't surprising that Hamas have amassed as much support and power in the region as they have and resorted to this kind of violence. 2 1
Dan81 Posted October 11, 2023 Posted October 11, 2023 The crimes of the Israeli occupation against "childhood" in numbers. 20,000 children are martyrs, 12 thousand wounded and 13,000 detained since the Jerusalem uprising until 2016. 95% of them were tortured. 700 children are arrested annually. And 85% of the children of Jerusalem are below the poverty line. The history of the Israeli occupation is full of crimes and massacres against humanity. Since Israel's occupation of Arab lands in Palestine and the declaration of their alleged state in 1984, and the killing machine harvests hundreds and thousands of innocent Palestinians, and childhood has not been spared of those bloody crimes, since the beginning of the "Aqsa Intifada" in 2000 until the end of March 2016, about 2,070 children have been martyred, according to the latest Palestinian statistics. 13 thousand wounded and 12 thousand detained A statement issued by the Palestinian Ministry of Information, which was obtained by the "seventh day", said that more than 13,000 children were injured in the same period, and the occupation forces arrested more than 12,000 children, and 480 children are still in the occupation prisons, while 95% of them were subjected to torture and assault during the campaigns of arrest, investigation and forced confessions during their interrogation. The Child Information Department in the Palestinian Ministry of Information, Ramallah, reviewed the violations of the occupation forces and settler herded forces against Palestinian children since the beginning of the Al-Aqsa Intifada on September 28, 2000 until this year. 700 children arrested annually The Israeli occupation annually arrests about 700 children from all governorates of Palestine, under the pretext of throwing stones at the occupation forces and settlers, while school students are subjected to violations at military checkpoints at the entrances to cities, villages and camps. Problems of poverty Children also face the problems of rampant poverty, due to the deterioration of the economic situation, and the ongoing blockade, especially in the Gaza Strip, forcing many of them to leave their schools and go to the labor market. According to a report by the Palestinian Central Bureau of Statistics for 2013, the percentage of Palestinian children enrolled in the labor market from the age group (10-17) was about 4.1%, while the latest report of the Palestinian Ministry of Labor indicated that there are 102,000 Palestinian children under the age of 18 in the labor market, while their number in 2011 was about 65,000 children. Child labor in settlements According to the statistics of the Palestinian Ma'an Center, 10,000 to 20,000 Palestinian workers work in the Jordan Valley agricultural settlements, including 5.5 percent of children (13-16 years old), and work 7 to 8 hours a day, and receive a wage comparable to one-third of the minimum for the Israeli worker. The poor conditions faced by students in their schools are the reason for the spread of this phenomenon, as schools in the Jordan Valley suffer from a severe lack of funding and lack of adequate facilities, and are often located away from the homes of children, who leave their schools with no alternative but work. Most children work informally, receiving no benefits amid generally unsafe working conditions. The policies of the occupation work to consolidate a dangerous economic situation in the Jordan Valley, and push Palestinian children to leave their schools, abandon their dreams, and enter the labor market prematurely, in exchange for cheap wages, and such degrading actions negatively affect the development and development of the child. Children of the occupied city of Jerusalem 85% of Jerusalem's children live below the poverty line, according to the Association for Citizen's Rights, the population of East Jerusalem is 371,844 citizens, 79% of this number live below the poverty line as a result of the occupation policies and measures against them. As for education in the city of East Jerusalem, there is still a shortage of educational classrooms estimated at 1,000 classrooms, and according to the data of the Directorate of Education in occupied Jerusalem, the total children in East Jerusalem are between six and eighteen, in 2012 reached 88,845 children, including 86,18 children enrolled in educational institutions. The dropout rate from the 12th grades of secondary school only in Jerusalem schools was about 40%, while the city suffers from a shortage of maternity and childhood centers, as there are only 4 centers compared to the city of West Jerusalem, which has 25 centers that care for children.
Glam Posted October 11, 2023 Posted October 11, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, CoolNebraskaGuy said: I guess what I'd want to know is- do you really think terrorism can be defeated by slaughtering indiscriminately? Were the 3000 souls lost on September 11 avenged by the 3 million that died in the two decades that followed? Isn't a policy of retribution the logic of terrorism? Keep in mind that over half the population of Gaza are essentially children- far too young to have played any significant role in this conflict. Will their deaths be justified if the leaders of Hamas are killed? Yes, it can be defeated though I am not saying that I enjoy the process. Al Qaeda and ISIS were defeated for example. At a huge cost in terms of human life of course. Do terrorists groups just stop at some point and become civilized? No, they don't. If Israel gave up to a few of the Hamas demands then it would encourage them to keep kidnapping people and doing heinous acts cause they would think "they only listened to us when we were able to inflict great pain onto them". Nothing justifies a war that lasts for decades and causes millions of deaths/injured/displaced, but sometimes governments/armies are faced with tough decisions: should they let the terrorists live and wait for the next time they are able to kill a couple thousand israelis? Or should they go to the root cause without any guarantee of success? Israel and the US usually go for the latter option. I think we don't disagree that much it's just that you are seeing it from a moral perspective, and I'm seeing it through a perspective of the duty that every country has to stop terrorism. In this case the terrorist group is the government of Gaza so the only option for Israel is to escalate the war and to defeat their enemy. Obviously they have a huge hand in what happened but Hamas really left them no choice at this point. Now, I hope and pray that they have enough restraint not to go overboard, though by looking at history I don't think they will have the restraint, which of course Hamas should have known prior to doing what they did. Edited October 11, 2023 by Glam Typo
BlueTimberwolf Posted October 11, 2023 Posted October 11, 2023 3 hours ago, jakeisphat said: Attacks from Lebanon and Syria are not a good look. Hopefully the Netanyahu government shows restraint, and doesn't lead Israel into a regional war fighting multiple countries/terror groups
Chemist Posted October 11, 2023 Posted October 11, 2023 So many great takes in this thread so far . Proving that there are so many of us that haven't been brainwashed yet. What Hamas did was absolutely horrific and a war crime, but it was going to happen sooner or later. The murderings of israelis is a direct consequence of their government actions 1 4 2
besaid Posted October 11, 2023 Posted October 11, 2023 Biden Admin taking a very strong stance (as has most of the rest of the world minus a tiny but loud minority of extremists) that there are not 2 sides here and Hamas and their supporters in Gaza and elsewhere are repugnant + Israel is right to defend itself. 3 1 6
Glam Posted October 11, 2023 Posted October 11, 2023 4 minutes ago, ZIVERT said: I hope so. But "Gaza is an open air prison" according to some people. Gaza has an 8 mile border with Egypt, a muslim country. Does Israel control that border too? No, they don't. So what happened with the brotherhood that muslims allegedly have? Egypt isn't a developed country but they don't lack any of the basics, why don't they support Gaza more? Can anyone explain? 1 6
SeeingStars1515 Posted October 11, 2023 Posted October 11, 2023 22 minutes ago, Chemist said: So many great takes in this thread so far . Proving that there are so many of us that haven't been brainwashed yet. What Hamas did was absolutely horrific and a war crime, but it was going to happen sooner or later. The murderings of israelis is a direct consequence of their government actions NO it is not responsible for Hamas's actions. it is responsible for Israel's actions. Hamas didnt have to kill over 260 people indiscirminately at a music concert. It didnt have to kidnap people or kill children in front of their families. Hamas militants chose to do this. I get the idea that its important to consider the role of Israel's actions against Gaza in Palestinians defending Hamas (and with a weak PLO), but that doesn't justify their actions.
Communion Posted October 11, 2023 Posted October 11, 2023 (edited) 20 minutes ago, Glam said: But "Gaza is an open air prison" according to some people. Calls from Zionists to allow Gazans to flee into Egypt for refuge = The gleeful delight of Zionists that Gazans give up the hope of ever seeing the liberation of their home, knowing that anyone who would flee into Egypt will never be allowed by Israel back into Gaza. Western powers are calling on Egypt to take 2M refugees and not for the settler state they finance to not drone bomb 2M people is because the former will achieve the ethnic cleansing that has been the goal of this entire project all along. 20 minutes ago, Glam said: Does Israel control that border too? 20 minutes ago, Glam said: why don't they support Gaza more? Edited October 11, 2023 by Communion 5
ClashAndBurn Posted October 11, 2023 Posted October 11, 2023 2 hours ago, Harrier said: Two states is the only way, period end of story. Two state is impossible and untenable, and Israel + the United States (under BOTH political parties) have done everything possible to make it that way. The only eventual outcome that the West will allow will be thus: Israel successfully pushes out all Palestinians from occupied territories in the West Bank and Gaza with full backing from Joe Biden/Donald Trump/whomever. Israel will then fully annex the territory (in addition to eventually pushing Syria/Russia out of the Golan Heights), and then the rest of the world will be expected to swallow the outcome and deal with it. Because that is the outcome of living in a world under United States hegemony. Much like how you question the meaning of "from the river to the sea," the statement that "ISRAEL HAS THE RIGHT TO DEFEND ITSELF" also means exactly that. Self-defense sounds ambiguous and noble, but "America has the right to defend itself after 9/11" led to two decades-long illegal wars in Afghanistan and Iraq (which also spilled over into also destabilizing Libya ten years later and transforming it into a slave market thanks to Hillary Clinton). Short of that outcome, there will only be a years-long quagmire much like Ukraine, which the US will have to commit itself to aiding while China becomes tempted by the distraction this brings to actually move in and take steps towards claiming Taiwan. 2 1
ATRL Moderator Bloo Posted October 11, 2023 ATRL Moderator Posted October 11, 2023 2 minutes ago, SeeingStars1515 said: NO it is not responsible for Hamas's actions. it is responsible for Israel's actions. Hamas didnt have to kill over 260 people indiscirminately at a music concert. It didnt have to kidnap people or kill children in front of their families. Hamas militants chose to do this. I get the idea that its important to consider the role of Israel's actions against Gaza in Palestinians defending Hamas (and with a weak PLO), but that doesn't justify their actions. You’re missing the point. Oppression pushes people to the point of retaliation. Hamas was literally established in the 80s following a Palestinian uprising against Israel’s occupation of the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem. Of course the recent Hamas-led violence is wrong. But, it is completely naïve and unproductive to not acknowledge that the Western world empowering Israel while Palestinian people have suffered from an apartheid state only serves as fodder to radicalize people towards groups like Hamas. People have their breaking point where they’ll inevitably retaliate. That’s the point. It doesn’t justify or place Hamas as the moral actor here. They’re not. But you need more context when discussing this issue than just “Hamas is the bad guy and that’s the whole story” like it’s a cheap storyline from the MCU. 1 5
Mr. Mendes Posted October 11, 2023 Posted October 11, 2023 A regular missile is not enough? They must use internationally banned weapons?
Capris Groove Posted October 11, 2023 Posted October 11, 2023 4 hours ago, LookinAssHittas said: The 10 million Israelis don’t have to go anywhere. The only just solution to this conflict is a one-state solution where every citizen, Jew or Arab, has equal rights. I completely agree with you. And what's outrageous is that these two groups ultimately go back to the same genetic lineage. It's all terrible.
Gui Blackout Posted October 11, 2023 Posted October 11, 2023 34 minutes ago, Chemist said: So many great takes in this thread so far . Proving that there are so many of us that haven't been brainwashed yet. What Hamas did was absolutely horrific and a war crime, but it was going to happen sooner or later. The murderings of israelis is a direct consequence of their government actions The murdering of Israelis is a direct consequence of Hamas wanting to murder Israelis, actually. Please drop this talking point because is effectively whitewashing Hamas' crimes and selling their bloodthirsty jihad as a noble "resistance". 1
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